False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Ok Rella, you have me absolutely confused.

You suggested that The Catholic Church does not adhere to the commandment that we are not to worship or make idols. Is that not what you suggested in post #81???????????

Quote from you in post #81: I wonder why you dropped a commandment?

Well, why did you?

I did not say you worshipped or bowed down to at all... but it just seems odd that it is missing if it really was something Moses gave the people.

I personally can think of a couple I would like to see gone.... but when I went to Sunday school and also grade school they were right there in my face....

 

[Marymog]

The John Calvin who more or less indicated that God ... wait read yourself

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).

MY Heavenly Father would bar someone... especially when it was he who gave those their spirits?

No I was not serious about her... but Calvin holds no respect from me.

Thank you for making my point Rella.

YOU decide what the Truth is and what it isn't.......You seem to believe that Ellen White has some truth. Maybe even Martin Luther has some Truth? But ultimately YOU KNOW the Truth and who is right and who is wrong.

Thanks for your time Rella.

PS: I concur with you that Calvin is wrong about predestination. You agree with The Church. Does that concern you?

 

[Marymog]

Well, why did you?

I did not say you worshipped or bowed down to at all... but it just seems odd that it is missing if it really was something Moses gave the people.

I personally can think of a couple I would like to see gone.... but when I went to Sunday school and also grade school they were right there in my face....

There is nothing "missing".....that is why I am so confused.

Who was right there in your face?????????????

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

There is nothing "missing".....that is why I am so confused.

Who was right there in your face?????????????

Please , if you would be so kind, list the 10 commandments that are in your bible.... and lets compare with a Protestant one.

BTW Mary... I know you think I am all about Catholic bashing. I am not at all.

I come from a family full of Roman Catholics. On my mothers side. Her 3 brothers were and married well in the church. Her oldest sister did not marry until in her 30s but also married in the church. The next sister did not...
she married a Jewish man but he died and she remarried... a catholic man... and her 3rd sister married quite old
My birth mom died when I was a teen and dad remarried my mom who adopted me. Dad was protestant...
though I can assure you there were many Irish Catholics going back. But mom said she wanted unity in the house so she joined dad's church.

AND the best part of it all is her dad.... my grandfather WAS A PALETINE GUARD in Rome back in the teens of the last century before he married and they migrated to the US.

And my mom is the God mother to the youngest of 10 children of our good friend....

So I am not exactly just picking arguments.

Am I always right... Heck no. That is why I look even on ghere for opinions

And whether you are aware of it or not you and I did agree on something today.

THE POSSIBILITY that Mary and Jose[h came together. We both agree that it is not in the bible.... so there is that possibility.

And I can agree to a certain extent with you that there is the possibility she did not have other children.

Though it is suggested by some in the bible... it really does not matter to what she did for us.

So, see... you taught me something..... whether you thought you did nor not.

 

[Behold]

I wasn't aware anyone taught that Mary had no children after Jesus.

"perpetual virgin".

When did the Catholic Church declare Mary's perpetual virginity?

"" 553

The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 gave her the title "Aeiparthenos", meaning Perpetual Virgin, and at the Lateran Synod of 649 Pope Martin I emphasized the threefold character of the perpetual virginity, before, during, and after the birth of Christ.""

And what is also interesting about that is that the Pagan Goddess DIANA is also the "perpetual virgin"..

 

[Marymog]

Please , if you would be so kind, list the 10 commandments that are in your bible.... and lets compare with a Protestant one.

Hey Rella,

There is no Protestant bible and Catholic bible when it comes to the 10 commandments. But here is the best I can do to accommodate you request:

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.[c]

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

[amigo de christo]

Considering Calvin obviously had questionable teachings..... I am absolutely opposite of what he taught.

I would sooner follow Ellen White.

FOLLOW NEITHER is all i can say . NOR the R double C .

 

[amigo de christo]

Are you serious??????????

I highly doubt it , me thinks he was just making it a point to say RELLA NO FOLLOW THAT CALVIN .
AND I SURELY hold no fault against him for that . calvin dangerous . heed not that man .
But i must say HEED not the RCC either . We got problems in the house my friends . Let us learn the bible well
OH and heed not ellen white peroid . Heed not joseph smith . I better stop there cause this list is gonna get VERY LONG .
WE have had infiltrators for a long long time who have come in and within to make desciples after themselves .
My advice stands . OPEN BIBLE and lets get busy reading it .

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Hey Rella,

There is no Protestant bible and Catholic bible when it comes to the 10 commandments. But here is the best I can do to accommodate you request:

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 you shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.[c]

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Great..... thank you.

Then the list the other one gave in that other forum was false.

I stand corrected

 

[Marymog]

THE POSSIBILITY that Mary and Jose[h came together. We both agree that it is not in the bible.... so there is that possibility.

Nope Rella, we don't agree that there is that possibility. We agree that it is not in the NT, but we don't agree that there is that possibility that they came together. For you see, I look at ALL of Scripture and not the parts that fit my belief.

At no time have I ever thought, and Christianity has never taught or written in the NT that it was possible that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. That is a creation of men from the 16th century.

I do not believe that once a woman, ANY WOMAN, who gave birth to the Son of God, thought it is OK to have sex with the man that was sworn to protect her here on earth. Scripture NEVER suggest that. The Jewish faith NEVER suggest that. And I have never suggested that. Joseph was unwilling to disgrace Mary publicly, so he continued to stay married to her so that she wouldn't be stoned to death for a (supposed) extra martial relationship. He then honored and respected her and God by not defiling her.....a professed and vowed virgin.

That is what The Church has taught for 2,000 years; that she is a perpetual virgin. You reject the 2,000-year teaching because YOU know better and your faith is what YOU believe and not what the pillar and foundation of truth teaches. Your faith is all about YOU!! If a Protestant teaches something YOU don't believe.....you reject it. If a Protestant teaches something YOU believe, you accept it. If the Catholic Church teaches something YOU don't believe you reject it. If the Catholic Church teaches something YOU believe, you accpet it.

It is always about YOU.....

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

Please , if you would be so kind, list the 10 commandments that are in your bible.... and lets compare with a Protestant one.

BTW Mary... I know you think I am all about Catholic bashing. I am not at all.

I come from a family full of Roman Catholics. On my mothers side. Her 3 brothers were and married well in the church. Her oldest sister did not marry until in her 30s but also married in the church. The next sister did not...
she married a Jewish man but he died and she remarried... a catholic man... and her 3rd sister married quite old
My birth mom died when I was a teen and dad remarried my mom who adopted me. Dad was protestant...
though I can assure you there were many Irish Catholics going back. But mom said she wanted unity in the house so she joined dad's church.

AND the best part of it all is her dad.... my grandfather WAS A PALETINE GUARD in Rome back in the teens of the last century before he married and they migrated to the US.

And my mom is the God mother to the youngest of 10 children of our good friend....

So I am not exactly just picking arguments.

Am I always right... Heck no. That is why I look even on ghere for opinions

And whether you are aware of it or not you and I did agree on something today.

THE POSSIBILITY that Mary and Jose[h came together. We both agree that it is not in the bible.... so there is that possibility.

And I can agree to a certain extent with you that there is the possibility she did not have other children.

Though it is suggested by some in the bible... it really does not matter to what she did for us.

So, see... you taught me something..... whether you thought you did nor not.

I never once read in the bible of a man who had a wife that never slept with his wife . Sure some might have been barren .
Mary was a virgin and remained a virgin up till at least AFTER JESUS was born .
After that , well there is no place in scripture where it said any man went solo and never touched his wife in that way .
UNTIL AFTER is actually WRITTEN . its quite safe , i assure us to assume mary and joseph had children .
And defintely safe to assume they , well what is the word , later cosumated the marriage .
You do realize where this perpetual virgin stuff is really coming from . A status given to mary ,
but that is not the worst of it . What is truly truly blasphmeous it not teaching SHE remained a virgin
ITS THE PRAYING TO HER and to the saints they do , to angels too . NOW THAT IS BLASPHEMOUS .
And highly dangerous and deadly too .

 

[Grailhunter]

Mary was a virgin before God the Father impregnated her but not after.
The Bible does not call her the Virgin Mary and her name is Miriam.
The Bible does not indicate she was a virgin when she gave birth to Yeshua.
There is no reason to assume that she and Joseph did not have children.
The Bible does not indicate that for her and Joseph to have children would be wrong and it would be normal for her and Joseph to have children.
And the Bible indicates that Yeshua had brothers and sisters.
And the Bible definitely does not indicate that Miriam did not have other children.

 

[amigo de christo]

Mary was a virgin before God the Father impregnated her but not after.
The Bible does not call her the Virgin Mary and her name is Miriam.
The Bible does not indicate she was a virgin when she gave birth to Yeshua.
There is no reason to assume that she and Joseph did not have children.
The Bible does not indicate that for her and Joseph to have children would be wrong and it would be normal for her and Joseph to have children.
And the Bible indicates that Yeshua had brothers and sisters.
And the Bible definitely does not indicate that Miriam did not have other children.

What i say to one i say to all , they even pray TO HER , to the saints , to angels too .
THERE is but one word for that . BLASPHEMY .
That is what scares me for THEM . And it dont end there either . Many traditions
which actually CONTRADICT scripture itself they do and they teach others to do . THAT is what scares me so much for them .

 

[David in NJ]

Oh goodness.....What man taught you this?

If Joseph and Mary were "approved" to have sexual relations, then why was Mary surprised by Gabriels announcement that she would give birth to the son of God?

The Son of Man = also known as the LORD Jesus Christ

 

[Wrangler]

and did not KNOW HER till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.

I know EOC take on “until” could mean never AND that’s what it meant in that verse.

I kid you not.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I know EOC take on “until” could mean never AND that’s what it meant in that verse.

I kid you not.

Prove it

 

[Wrangler]

Prove it

What proof would you accept? On another forum there were pages of defense by Orthodox Christian’s that until could mean never.

If you don’t accept my testimony, it’s no sweat off my salvation.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

What proof would you accept? On another forum there were pages of defense by Orthodox Christian’s that until could mean never.

If you don’t accept my testimony, it’s no sweat off my salvation.

There is no definitive proof so one ought not say, as you did above...

If You said to your child..."Do not touch that ( cookie, candy, cake or pie) until dinner"..Realistically what do you think your child would think you meant?

If you said to your wife "I wont mow the grass until the game is over and the rankings are listed.

Then how can anyone possible say that "but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. Means it never happened....

I have copied the following link in entirety . And gave the link to the one mentioned in the article at the end.

When did the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity start?

The Q&A "When did the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity start?" shares references for when and how people came to believe that Mary was a perpetual virigin.

www.neverthirsty.org

When did the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity start?​

Bible Question:​

We just finished reading your excellent article on “How Many Brothers did Jesus Have?” When did this belief begin in the church since several of the reformers including Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and John Wesley all held to the perpetual virginity dogma?

Bible Answer:​

The earliest evidence for the teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin occurs in the writings of the early church father Jerome[1] who was born in A.D. 347 and died about A.D. 419. Prior to Jerome there is no evidence that the early church taught anything other than the scriptural record – that Jesus had siblings: flesh and blood brothers and sisters. Some have claimed that Origen was the first early father who wrote that Mary was a perpetual virgin, but a close examination of his statement reveals that is not true.

And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first-fruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first-fruit of virginity.[2]

His statement was simply that Jesus’ mother was a virgin, and not that she was a perpetual virgin.

Other early church fathers taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin also. At first this might appear impressive and decisive, but a closer examination reveals that the early church writers who held this viewpoint wrote after A.D. 300 and not during the first, second, or even the third centuries. This is important since the Roman Catholic church began to emerge as an organization sometime around A.D. 300. This strongly implies that the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity started with the Roman Catholic Church.

It is also important to notice that Luther, Calvin, and Wesley came out of the Roman Catholic Church and, consequently, some of their theology had Roman Catholic leanings. This could explain why Luther[3], Calvin[4], Zwingli[5] and John Wesley[6] believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church and others point back to the writings of the early church fathers and use their writings as authoritative truth in determining the meaning of the scriptural passages. But that approach assumes the writings of these mortal men are inspired. The truth is they are not. Only the Bible is inspired. Look at the following passage regarding Mary’s children.

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. Mark 6:3 (NAS95S)

The passage says that Mary had other children and the names are provided. Some of the early church fathers and current Roman Catholic theologians say that the passage refers to the spiritual brothers and sisters of Jesus. We are told to understand these names in a figurative way.

If so, how are we supposed to understand the following passage?

Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For not even His brothers were believing in Him. John 7:2-5 (NAS95S)

Are we supposed to assume that these brothers, who did not believe in Jesus at that time, are in some way spiritual brothers? A close examination of the passage makes it very clear that these “brothers” are not spiritual brothers and sisters in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church and some early church fathers would want us to believe. These brothers did not believe in Jesus. If they did not believe in Jesus, then they cannot be spiritual brothers. It is very clear that they are Jesus’ flesh and blood brothers.

The names of Jesus’ brothers are given in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3. Here is the Mark passage:

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. Mark 6:3 (NAS95S)

In John 2:12 we discover that Jesus and His mother are accompanied by His brothers and His disciples to the wedding at Cana in Galilee.

After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days. John 2:12 (NAS95S)

It is important to note that “brothers” is not included with “disciples” in a general sense. Instead they are called out separately because they were Jesus’ siblings and they did not believe in Jesus yet. Later, at least two of His brothers came to faith.

Conclusion:​

The teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin started at about the time the Roman Catholic Church came into existence and continues to this day. However, the scriptures make it clear that Jesus had siblings. Mary was a virgin until the time Jesus was born. Afterward she had children. Otherwise, why did Matthew write these words?

And Joseph . . . kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. Matt 1:24-25 (NAS95S)

The Greek words that are translated as “kept her a virgin” are OUK EGINOSKEN AUTOS. The first word, OUK, means “not” and the second word, EGINOSKEN, is an imperfect verb which means “to be knowing.” Therefore, the correct translation is that Joseph was “not knowing” Mary. This was a common ancient euphemism that meant He was not actively having sexual intercourse with Mary before Jesus was born. The last word, AUTOS, means “her.” Now notice the word “until.” The Greek word is “EOS.” It refers to a period of time up to a certain point but not beyond. If we put this all together, we discover that Joseph was not having sexual intercourse with Mary before Jesus was born. The emphasis of the passage is upon what happened before. The strong implication of the text is that he did have sexual intercourse with Mary after she gave birth to Jesus. Then she was no longer a virgin. Those who claim that Jesus’ brothers and sisters referred to in the gospels were step-brothers and step-sisters to keep Mary a virgin, have ignored many very important passages, distorting the plain sense meaning of scripture. May the Lord bless you.

References:​

1. Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary, Against Helvidius, Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1995) Volume VI, pp. 334-346. Please note that some believe Origen (A.D. 248) referred to the belief of Mary’ perpetual virginity in his Commentary on Matthew 2.17.
2. Origen, “The Brethren of Jesus, Section 17”. Commentary on Matthew, Book X.
3. Calvin, John. Calvin’s Commentaries. Baker Book House. Grand Rapids. Vol. 1, p. 109, 214.
4. Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, The American Edition, Jaroslav J. Pelikan & Helmut Lehmann, eds., 55 vols., (St. Louis & Philadelphia: CPH & Fortress Press, 1955-1986), 295-358; cf. Anderson, 236-237.
5. G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9, 395.
6. In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25.

The other article link.

How many brothers and sisters did Jesus have?

This Q&A answers the question, "How many brothers and sisters did Jesus have?" with what we know from the Bible and historic records about Jesus' siblings.

www.neverthirsty.org

How many brothers and sisters did Jesus have?

 

[Wrangler]

There is no definitive proof so one ought not say, as you did above...

Again, what prof will you accept. I am a witness. Guess you are denying my words as sufficient proof.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Again, what prof will you accept. I am a witness. Guess you are denying my words as sufficient proof.

"I know EOC take on “until” could mean never AND that’s what it meant in that verse.

I kid you not."

You are a witness to "“until” could mean never AND that’s what it meant in that verse."