False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Hey Rella,

Hi Mary,

Sorry I had to cut your quote but the say I had too many characters.... & we can read you above

Why is it that you do not want to accept that Mary might have had a normal marriage?

You ask..... "You have accepted the teachings of the men from the 16th century. Why?"

Well, that might be because in the past it is provable that those who wrote your bible were not 100% correct, therefore it took those 1600 years for the "men" to correct things. We will start first, with , Mary.

Let's look back on what the Greeks had to say on the subject, and since I cannot read Greek I will use the English/Greek interlinear.

Mathew 1:25 Matthew 1 Interlinear Bible

and not knew her until that she had brought forth a son and he called the name of Him Jesus.

This was Greek. There is not one person that can read this and say if Joseph did not know her until she had brought forth a son and He was named Jesus that Joseph did not eventually know his wife. It does not say that. It does not suggest that. It does not even hint at that.

This is interesting... From a search I just did and read "The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity"

The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

Tim Staples tackles common objections to the Catholic teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Here's what you need to know.

www.catholic.com

Until Then​

Scripture’s statement that Joseph “knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn” would not necessarily mean they did “know” each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point.

Look at what I made red and bolded... IOW this states that we know they did not do it before..... NOTHING is said about if they did or didn't after.

BTW the Greek Orthodox say.... But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

But I am not going to belabor the point. You have your beliefs, as do I....

But you asked why did it take 1600 years to correct that error... The very same can be asked why it took 1600 years to correct another.

We all know the 10 commandments, and many of us know the order of which has been printed in our respected bibles....

On another forum I was challenged with a very simple question When I asked how does one honor a parent or parents that have been abusive as the 5th commandment says we should....

I got this reply... so I went deep diving again.

The reply

Why is it 5 in the Protestant view?
What is that based on?

Ten Commandments

Ex 20

Scripture has no list (1, 2, 3, etc.) of the Ten Commandments

First commandment: ex 20:2-6
One God

Second commandment: ex 20:7
God’s name

Third commandment: ex 20:8-11
God’s sabbath

Fourth commandment: ex 20:12
Parents

Fifth commandment: ex 20:13
Murder

Sixth commandment: ex 20:14
Adultery

Seventh commandment: ex 20:15
Theft

Eighth commandment: ex 20:16
Lying

Ninth commandment: ex 20:17
Coveting

Separating the two about coveting makes Ten Commandments!

I had completely forgotten there are differing views as to what those 10 are.

I first looked at the Hebrew/English Interlinear to see what the Old Testament/Moses had to say. They wrote it long before there waws ever a thought that someone might contest what they are.

The Ten Commandments​

listed in Exodus 20 as given to the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai.

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

The second commandment that the Protestants follow are from the Hebrew/English interlinear.

And it reads in Hebrew....

in the earth or that [is]､ above in heaven that [is] likeness [of anything] or any ､ a carved image for yourself You shall make NOT

I further looked at the Septuagint LXX

And in the Septuagint LXX this is the completion of what is written there, for the 10. Those in RED are the actual commandments and as one can see Honoring the parents is number #5 here also. With quite an expansion on Commandment # 2

Exodus 20​

1 And the Lord spoke all these words, saying:

2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods beside me.

4 Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me,

6 and bestowing mercy on them that love me to thousands , and on them that keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord thy God will not acquit him that takes his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

9 Six days thou shalt labour, and shalt perform all thy work.

10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt do no work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy servant nor thy maidservant, thine ox nor thine ass, nor any cattle of thine, nor the stranger that sojourns with thee.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, and the sea and all things in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest live long on the good land, which the Lord thy God gives to thee.

13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

14 Thou shalt not steal.

15 Thou shalt not kill.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; nor his field, nor his servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any of his cattle, nor whatever belongs to thy neighbour.

So while you wonder why it took us 1600 years, I wonder why you dropped a commandment?

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,

Sorry I had to cut your quote but the say I had too many characters.... & we can read you above

Why is it that you do not want to accept that Mary might have had a normal marriage?

hello Rella,

No problem on the cutting of the quote. It's easy to find what you were quoting. And when you say 'normal marriage' I think it is safe for me to assume that you mean that her and Joseph, at a minimum, had sex.... which is what happens in a normal marriage.... even if they didn't have children since not all marriages produce children.


The teaching that Mary did not have any other children and did not engage in a 'normal marriage' is the oldest or first teaching of Christianity. That means the real question is "Why do Protestants reject the oldest or first teaching of Christianity that Mary didn't have a "normal marriage" and accept a teaching that came along 1,600 years later?"

In Luke 1:34 Mary was told by the angel Gabriel that she was chosen to be the Mother of the Messiah. She asked the question, “How shall this be since I know not man?” This abnormal question to Gabriel makes no sense when we consider that in vs 27 Mary and Joseph were already “espoused,” which means that they were married. That would mean Joseph would have had the right to the marriage bed at the time Gabriel visited her. Normally, after the espousal the husband would go off and prepare a home for his new bride and then come and receive her into his home where the union would be consummated. That is why Joseph intended to “divorce her quietly” (Mt 1:19) when he later discovered she was pregnant. So based on those passages from Scripture.....It was not a "normal marriage".

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,



You ask..... "You have accepted the teachings of the men from the 16th century. Why?"

Well, that might be because in the past it is provable that those who wrote your bible were not 100% correct, therefore it took those 1600 years for the "men" View attachment 36369 to correct things.

Rella,

"It was provable that those who wrote your bible were not 100% correct...." HUH.............???? That statement makes absolutely NO SENSE. I specifically addressed the bible passage that YOU provided. That bible passage apparntly came from people who wrote your bible so I addressed what YOU wrote and what came from your bible and not mine (whatever that means) soooooooooo your statement makes zero sense.

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,



This is interesting... From a search I just did and read "The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity"

The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

Tim Staples tackles common objections to the Catholic teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Here's what you need to know.

www.catholic.com

Look at what I made red and bolded... IOW this states that we know they did not do it before..... NOTHING is said about if they did or didn't after.

Yup Rella, and look at the line right after what you highlighted in red: It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point.

So your point is mute...

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,

........................

But you asked why did it take 1600 years to correct that error... The very same can be asked why it took 1600 years to correct another.

We all know the 10 commandments, and many of us know the order of which has been printed in our respected bibles....

On another forum I was challenged with a very simple question When I asked how does one honor a parent or parents that have been abusive as the 5th commandment says we should....

I got this reply... so I went deep diving again.

The reply


I had completely forgotten there are differing views as to what those 10 are.

I first looked at the Hebrew/English Interlinear to see what the Old Testament/Moses had to say. They wrote it long before there waws ever a thought that someone might contest what they are.


The second commandment that the Protestants follow are from the Hebrew/English interlinear.

And it reads in Hebrew....

in the earth or that [is]､ above in heaven that [is] likeness [of anything] or any ､ a carved image for yourself You shall make NOT

I further looked at the Septuagint LXX

And in the Septuagint LXX this is the completion of what is written there, for the 10. Those in RED are the actual commandments and as one can see Honoring the parents is number #5 here also. With quite an expansion on Commandment # 2



So while you wonder why it took us 1600 years, I wonder why you dropped a commandment?

Oh goodness Rella.....why are we going down this off the subject rabbit hole????????


The Church has not "dropped a commandment". Please give your evidence that it has! The Church does not now and has never condoned the worshiping of images! That is a Protestant lie that started AFTER the Reformation to decieve. Who is the great deciever rella? So, once again, you are believing the men of the 16th century (or later) instead of doing your own research.




Mary

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Rella,

"It was provable that those who wrote your bible were not 100% correct...." HUH.............???? That statement makes absolutely NO SENSE. I specifically addressed the bible passage that YOU provided. That bible passage apparntly came from people who wrote your bible so I addressed what YOU wrote and what came from your bible and not mine (whatever that means) soooooooooo your statement makes zero sense.

Mary,

I always use 1 Mathew 25 on this subject.

I , frankly do not care if she had children other then Jesus or not.

The case is... did she die a virgin...?

I could get rather crude about that but I wont.... I am simply stating that there is no where where any bible says
they did not come together , in the marriage bed.

Maybe they waited til Jesus was old enough to leave home?

We dont know but it would be highly odd for them to not have.

There also was no reason for her to remain pure. She could still be about Gods work and favorably so.

All those men from Enoch to Noah, before and after who found special favor in God's eye and he kept them separate because they found his favor who had wives did not find God's favor because they never touched their wives.

God made man and woman to be together....

He said~ For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Mary found favor because she was pure as a girl and undefiled.

BTW... I almost only use the NASB95 translation unless I use the Greek or Hebrew English interlinears of the Septuagint LXX (Quite interesting to read this)

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Yup Rella, and look at the line right after what you highlighted in red: It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point.

So your point is mute...

Nah... it is not intended to deny it either

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,

Sorry I had to cut your quote but the say I had too many characters.... & we can read you above

Why is it that you do not want to accept that Mary might have had a normal marriage?

You ask..... "You have accepted the teachings of the men from the 16th century. Why?"

Well, that might be because in the past it is provable that those who wrote your bible were not 100% correct, therefore it took those 1600 years for the "men" View attachment 36369 to correct things. We will start first, with , Mary.

Let's look back on what the Greeks had to say on the subject, and since I cannot read Greek I will use the English/Greek interlinear.

Mathew 1:25 Matthew 1 Interlinear Bible

and not knew her until that she had brought forth a son and he called the name of Him Jesus.

This was Greek. There is not one person that can read this and say if Joseph did not know her until she had brought forth a son and He was named Jesus that Joseph did not eventually know his wife. It does not say that. It does not suggest that. It does not even hint at that.

This is interesting... From a search I just did and read "The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity"

The Case for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

Tim Staples tackles common objections to the Catholic teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Here's what you need to know.

www.catholic.com

Look at what I made red and bolded... IOW this states that we know they did not do it before..... NOTHING is said about if they did or didn't after.

BTW the Greek Orthodox say.... But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

But I am not going to belabor the point. You have your beliefs, as do I....

But you asked why did it take 1600 years to correct that error... The very same can be asked why it took 1600 years to correct another.

We all know the 10 commandments, and many of us know the order of which has been printed in our respected bibles....

On another forum I was challenged with a very simple question When I asked how does one honor a parent or parents that have been abusive as the 5th commandment says we should....

I got this reply... so I went deep diving again.

The reply


I had completely forgotten there are differing views as to what those 10 are.

I first looked at the Hebrew/English Interlinear to see what the Old Testament/Moses had to say. They wrote it long before there waws ever a thought that someone might contest what they are.


The second commandment that the Protestants follow are from the Hebrew/English interlinear.

And it reads in Hebrew....

in the earth or that [is]､ above in heaven that [is] likeness [of anything] or any ､ a carved image for yourself You shall make NOT

I further looked at the Septuagint LXX

And in the Septuagint LXX this is the completion of what is written there, for the 10. Those in RED are the actual commandments and as one can see Honoring the parents is number #5 here also. With quite an expansion on Commandment # 2



So while you wonder why it took us 1600 years, I wonder why you dropped a commandment?

You never answered the question: Based on the passages from Scripture I have given you AND a historical account from 1,700 years ago (Eusebius) that accounts for those "brothers" do you still believe what your 16th century men have taught you?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Nah... it is not intended to deny it either

Your point was mute because we are not disagreeing with each other on that point.....

 

[Marymog]

Mary,

I always use 1 Mathew 25 on this subject.

I , frankly do not care if she had children other then Jesus or not.

The case is... did she die a virgin...?

I could get rather crude about that but I wont.... I am simply stating that there is no where where any bible says
they did not come together , in the marriage bed.

Maybe they waited til Jesus was old enough to leave home?

We dont know but it would be highly odd for them to not have.

There also was no reason for her to remain pure. She could still be about Gods work and favorably so.

All those men from Enoch to Noah, before and after who found special favor in God's eye and he kept them separate because they found his favor who had wives did not find God's favor because they never touched their wives.

God made man and woman to be together....

He said~ For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Mary found favor because she was pure as a girl and undefiled.

BTW... I almost only use the NASB95 translation unless I use the Greek or Hebrew English interlinears of the Septuagint LXX (Quite interesting to read this)

Thanks Rella,

I agree with your statement that 'nowhere in any bible does it say they did not come together in the marriage bed'. Just as important is the FACT that 'nowhere in any bible does it say that they DID come together in the marriage bed'.

That means we have to rely on the translation or research of learned men to come to that conclusion. You have relied on the men of the 16th century (even though they disagree with each other on the matter).

I (The Church) relied on the men of the 2nd century and later to answer that question.

And BTW.....It does matter if Mary was a perpetual virgin. It mattered to her. It mattered to Joseph. And if it mattered to both of them it probably....more than likely....I am willing to put money on it.....That it mattered to Jesus!!

Based on you and your Protestant men's teaching: A marriage is between one man and one woman. In a "normal marriage" they produce children. Mary produced a child from God. That means she was....according to your own logic..... married to God. That means she cheated on God with Joseph.

I'm just sayin'.....think out the logic, or lack thereof, that your men have taught you.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Problametic-

Mat_1:25. καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν … υἱόν: absolute habitual (note the imperfect) abstinence from marital intercourse, the sole purpose of the hastened marriage being to legitimise the child.—ἕως: not till then, and afterwards?

Here comes in a quæstio vexata of theology. Patristic and catholic authors say: not till then and never at all, guarding the sacredness of the virgin’s womb.

ἕως does not settle the question. It is easy to cite instances of its use as fixing a limit up to which a specified event did not occur, when as a matter of fact it did not occur at all. E.g., Gen_8:7; the raven returned not till the waters were dried up; in fact, never returned (Schanz).

But the presumption is all the other way in the case before us.

Subsequent intercourse was the natural, if not the necessary, course of things.

If the evangelist had felt as the Catholics do, he would have taken pains to prevent misunderstanding.—υἱόν: the extended reading (T. R.) is imported from Luk_2:7, where there are no variants.

πρωτότοκον is not a stumbling-block to the champions of the perpetual virginity, because the first may be the only. Euthymius quotes in proof Isa_44:6 : “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.”
Exp-Greek.

Hey....Johann.....Are you using a quote of a 'saint' (Euthymius) from the 4th century and a bible scholar (Paul Schanz) from the 19th century to support what YOU believe?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

All the catholics will be greatly surprised.

Lol David.

You are right. We are surprised that you Protestants have rejected the 2,000-year teaching of Christianity and accepted the 500-year teaching of some of the men of the Reformation. I say some of the men of the Reformation because Luther and Calvin didn't even teach what you believe.

Yup.....'Greatly surprised' we are

 

[Marymog]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus had twelve bothers and sisters.

I wouldn't be either..........if you or your Protestant friends could give any evidence of that Mary had any other child than Jesus....but you can't...SURPRISE!

 

[Marymog]

In that day and age it was considered a curse from God for a married woman to be barren.

Not only did God bless Mary with choosing her to receive her Savior within her womb but God continued to bless Mary to be fruitful with her husband Joseph.
Let us not forget Joseph's faithfulness to God in this process = Matthew 1:18-25

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

24Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

NOTICE how God describes Joseph as Mary's husband, which meant God approved of Jospeh and Mary's sexual relations in holy matrimony.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Oh goodness.....What man taught you this?

If Joseph and Mary were "approved" to have sexual relations, then why was Mary surprised by Gabriels announcement that she would give birth to the son of God?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Lol David.

You are right. We are surprised that you Protestants have rejected the 2,000-year teaching of Christianity and accepted the 500-year teaching of some of the men of the Reformation. I say some of the men of the Reformation because Luther and Calvin didn't even teach what you believe.

Yup.....'Greatly surprised' we are

Considering Calvin obviously had questionable teachings..... I am absolutely opposite of what he taught.

I would sooner follow Ellen White.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Oh goodness Rella.....why are we going down this off the subject rabbit hole????????


The Church has not "dropped a commandment". Please give your evidence that it has! The Church does not now and has never condoned the worshiping of images! That is a Protestant lie that started AFTER the Reformation to decieve. Who is the great deciever rella? So, once again, you are believing the men of the 16th century (or later) instead of doing your own research.




Mary

Mary, as God is my witness I absolutely do not believe there is any translation into English that is correct enough to dogmatically teach from... Therefore , it is by my own research that I have learned and why I am so opposed to Calvins predestination even though my own church is centered on it.

As I have said also about churches there is no church that is 100% right and none that is 100% wrong.

Further....I did not say that you are worshipping images. Have people accused you of that?

I just want to know why your church does not hold to the same 2nd commandment as not only do the Protestants but also the Greek Orthodox who have in their bible...

4 Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth. 5 Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the Lord your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish your families for three or four generations. 6But if you love me and obey my laws, I will be kind to your families for thousands of generations.

You see Mary... when there is so much wrong out there... and the biggest wrong to me is the KING JAMES Version....that I always call King Jimmy's there is a problem that keeps someone in the proverbial dark from the LIGHT that was all are striving for.

You may well be right that Jesus did not have brothers.... but then maybe he did..... Someday, in eternity we will know.

As to going down another rabbit hole..... I dont see it that way... but shall refrain from doing that with you in the future if it bothers you.

Be blessed

Rella

 

[Marymog]

I would sooner follow Ellen White.

Are you serious??????????

 

[Marymog]

Mary, as God is my witness I absolutely do not believe there is any translation into English that is correct enough to dogmatically teach from... Therefore , it is by my own research that I have learned and why I am so opposed to Calvins predestination even though my own church is centered on it.

As I have said also about churches there is no church that is 100% right and none that is 100% wrong.

.................

Be blessed

Rella

Well Rella, that explains A LOT.....You are always right and no 'church', even the one you attend, is ever right.

YOU fulfil 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17.

 

[Marymog]

Further....I did not say that you are worshipping images. Have people accused you of that?

I just want to know why your church does not hold to the same 2nd commandment as not only do the Protestants but also the Greek Orthodox who have in their bible...

4 Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth. 5 Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the Lord your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish your families for three or four generations. 6But if you love me and obey my laws, I will be kind to your families for thousands of generations.



Be blessed

Rella

Ok Rella, you have me absolutely confused.

You suggested that The Catholic Church does not adhere to the commandment that we are not to worship or make idols. Is that not what you suggested in post #81???????????

Quote from you in post #81: I wonder why you dropped a commandment?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Are you serious??????????

The John Calvin who more or less indicated that God ... wait read yourself

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).

MY Heavenly Father would bar someone... especially when it was he who gave those their spirits?

No I was not serious about her... but Calvin holds no respect from me.