Does Christian Universalism deny the justice of God?

[St. SteVen]

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

Let's discuss.



@RayaJade @Patrick1966 @Chadrho @Hillsage

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks @Patrick1966 and @RayaJade

I forgot that this Unorthodox Doctrine Forum is a graveyard for topics.

Might make sense to relocate. I'll post the link here.

Done.

Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss. Thanks.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks @Patrick1966 and @RayaJade

I forgot that this Unorthodox Doctrine Forum is a graveyard for topics.

Might make sense to relocate. I'll post the link here.

Done.

Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss. Thanks.

www.christianityboard.com

Looks like that was a smart move.
Already up to page six in the other location.

Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss. Thanks.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

I suppose I should weigh in on my own topic.
Mostly been facilitating the discussion so far. (at the other location.
(like they say in Real Estate: Location, location, location.

Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end? Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism? Let's discuss. Thanks.

www.christianityboard.com

Lamentations 3:22-23 NIV
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose I wouldn't have launched this topic if I didn't believe that
God's justice would be fulfilled in Universal Reconciliation.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

 

[face2face]

Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

@quietthinker The Greek word apokatástasis appears only once in the Bible, in Acts 3:21. Do you know the verse? Maybe this is one of the verse's you cling to tightly? F2F

www.christianityboard.com

Page 9 is where the hard questions are asked...and ignored.

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

---- UPDATE ----

I relocated this topic out of the Unorthodox Doctrine dead zone to get something going.
As of posts #276 rating. #278, #281, #290 the topic was moved back to the dead zone.
Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?
And as I suspected, the readership soared to 21 pages.
Then it was hijacked again by the same person and is now locked.
It's back tp this one, I suppose.

 

[Jack]

Universalism and Christianity are totally incompatible!

 

[St. SteVen]

Lamentations 3:22-23 NIV
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose I wouldn't have launched this topic if I didn't believe that
God's justice would be fulfilled in Universal Reconciliation.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

]

 

[Behold]

Universalism is correct, until it states that Everyone is already saved.

How did they wind up there?

Its a "wrongly dividing" of 2 verses, ... NT verses, .. one by Paul and one by John.

Paul says....>>>"God was in Christ, in the world.... not counting man's sins against them" 2 Corin 5:19

John said.. """For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.""" John 3:17
("world is all the people)... John 3:16


See those verses.. They indicate that Salvation is universal,.. as one says that sins are not held against Mankind, and and one says that condemnation is removed by Jesus's sacrifice.

So, that is ALL true, but its not correct. (Doctrinally) .. to teach it as those verses state it, literally.

And this is why Paul tells us that we have to compare "scripture with scripture". to get the context, as otherwise, verses can be wrongly taught as a pretext., and that is the birth of Heresy.

So, it is Absolutely Truth that Jesus has died for the sin of everyone, 2000 yrs ago.

But, there is a stipulation... there is a requirement that God requires, so that God can apply this forgiveness, this Salvation, that is already completed for everyone, but not yet given or imputed to everyone, until they do this........

"ALL THAT BELIEVE In Jesus".

= your "FAITH is counted by God", and then He will give you the Salvation that God provided as Jesus on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago...and not until.

 

[Jack]

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Bye Bye Universalists!

 

[St. SteVen]

From the OP and post #4.

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

From post #4.

Lamentations 3:22-23 NIV
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose I wouldn't have launched this topic if I didn't believe that
God's justice would be fulfilled in Universal Reconciliation.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

[ cc: @MatthewG

 

[MatthewG]

I’m good and stand on what I’ve shared with you Steven, while you accept universalism and share your reasons, that’s fine with me.

I’m not Yahavah. the God of Israel.

It seems he has place for people who have faith in faithlessness? And those who are faithful…

Inside or outside the kingdom @St. SteVen no matter how you see Gods justice this is the picture given in the revelation…. Of what is now.

If you want to deny this, that is fine.

If your confused about subjects like the wrath of God, believe the end still coming, and all of those things you might not ever understand. You’ve admitted yourself you’re still waiting for Jesus.

That’s fine with me. I don’t accept universalism never want to, never have. I don’t accept it as biblical.

I never read “and everyone who died? Was resurrected and then went right into the Heavenly kingdom, where God is!”

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

That is a falsehood.

 

[St. SteVen]

I never read “and everyone who died? Was resurrected and then went right into the Heavenly kingdom, where God is!”

That is a falsehood.

The REAL falsehood is that you continue to claim that after being corrected repeatedly. Hello?

[

 

[MatthewG]

The REAL falsehood is that you continue to claim that after being corrected repeatedly. Hello?

[

I’ve never claimed people go straight into the kingdom when they die… you ever read my threads? On those subjects… there may be some time involvement, there may be people moving out of the kingdom to the outside…

There is a lot of speculation… but faithless people and faithful people are indeed separated.

Can they go through the fire later? At their decision of their own will?

That’s where you always say well “doesn’t God will Trump man’s”

God let’s people do what they want… either have him in their life or not.

There is a separation between faithless people and faithful…

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

bible.com

Saying everyone is happily in the kingdom ever after may not be true… they may be on the outside, but maybe their is a possible way to help…


Our will for Gods will, by our own decision.

If you want to, you can share all the universal scripture segments you believe in but that is like tearing apart the Bible, and ignoring it making a hole… but that is my opinion… cause the Bible needs to be taken in as a whole in my opinion.

 

[Super Kal]

I think it does. i Think that the "correction" that they talk about is nothing more than a proverbial slap on the wrist... Christian Universalism encourages sin, because there is no actual punishment for sin. Those who believe in Christian universalism can scream and yell that I'm wrong all thy want, but this doesn't change the fact that it does encourage sin and false doctrine because, according to them, everyone will eventually be saved, regardless of what they believe or do.

It completely and utterly does away with all holiness and righteousness

 

[St. SteVen]

Christian Universalism encourages sin, because there is no actual punishment for sin.

Thanks for joining the discussion.
Both of you are making claims about UR that are untrue.
I understand your concern in your quote above. But...

The UR understanding of the final judgement age is that it is correction for sin,
rather than purposeless eternal punishment, or annihilation.

A good parent puts their children in the corner, not in an oven.

The purpose of correction will be restoration and redemption.
And it's not a get-out-of-hell-free card. Jesus said it would be better to go into the afterlife without the hand or eye that makes you sin.
So, it is very serious.

Every idle word and thought and deed will be uncovered before everyone, Every secret revealed for all to see.
Everyone... Christian or not, will have to answer for their life.

Every nation, every leader (political and religious), every individual too. It will require a whole age to accomplish.

This is NOT an encouragement to sin. This is an encouragement for repentance!

[

 

[Super Kal]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
Both of you are making claims about UR that are untrue.
I understand your concern in your quote above. But...

The UR understanding of the final judgement age is that it is correction for sin,
rather than purposeless eternal punishment, or annihilation.

A good parent puts their children in the corner, not in an oven.

The purpose of correction will be restoration and redemption.
And it's not a get-out-of-hell-free card. Jesus said it would be better to go into the afterlife without the hand or eye that makes you sin.
So, it is very serious.

Every idle word and thought and deed will be uncovered before everyone, Every secret revealed for all to see.
Everyone... Christian or not, will have to answer for their life.

Every nation, every leader (political and religious), every individual too. It will require a whole age to accomplish.

This is NOT an encouragement to sin. This is an encouragement for repentance!

A good parent will spank their child, because if you spare the rod you will spoil the child.
Sodom and Gomorrah was not put in a corner. The world and mankind before the flood was not put in a corner... Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for its sin, and mankind was destroyed in the flood because of their sin...

If all I'm gonna get is just a proverbial sit in the corner come with them why should I even bother trying to be like Jesus? Why should anyone? Eventually everyone's going to be saved no matter what they say or do, so why even bother trying... that's what you don't realize.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

That is not the proverbial sitting in the corner... that is death. The second death. Not the second eternal life

 

[St. SteVen]

A good parent will spank their child, because if you spare the rod you will spoil the child.

Be sure to beat them half to death, you don't want them to actually die. Maybe just hate you forever.

Sodom and Gomorrah was not put in a corner.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

[

 

[St. SteVen]

If all I'm gonna get is just a proverbial sit in the corner come with them why should I even bother trying to be like Jesus? Why should anyone? Eventually everyone's going to be saved no matter what they say or do, so why even bother trying... that's what you don't realize.

This is a BIG problem in Christianity. We think that the only value in following Jesus is going to heaven after a life of misery. - LOL
What Jesus calls the abundant life.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

That is not the proverbial sitting in the corner... that is death. The second death. Not the second eternal life

Death and Hell will be thrown in the Lake of Fire too. Then what?

[

 

[MatthewG]

Universalism is untrue. Universal reconciliation - is an already standing state.

Anyone can get to Yahavah... if they so believe he exists.

That is how "Universally Reconciled" works - all people have been saved "from" their sin, death, Satan, hell.

But not everyone is "Universally" saved "to" the Kingdom... of Heaven going into the entranceway...

That is where you are highly con(f)used; concerning some of the notions and terms...

Now what you do not have is people going into the Kingdom whom are faithless... there is a separation which you continue to ignore.

You can believe whatever you want, but I stand against "Universalism" that you present which even so the Devil and the Angels of him will reconcile with Yahavah, but those things aren't expressed in the bible. It seems the Devil and Angels are done away with forever... in that lake of fire.

But not human beings... they only have a part in the fire, be it now on earth or perhaps later on in heaven drawing near to Yahavah who is a consuming fire. Not to be mean or condescending but aren't you a believer in the raised Lord Jesus Christ? Why do you have all these odd ball questions, if you are someone who has taken time to read and even study the bible? Why do you so believe that everyone is just dying here and going straight to heaven? Where are the rewards? Where is the justice indeed? It seems there is a a to b to c, gap somewhere... which is not registering.