There is a school of thought that we don't need male pastors either. What does "the Lord Is My Shepherd" mean? I think this topic is a red herring, lets get into the meat. Where does scripture say we are to go to a building and listen to someone preach to us every week? Or three times a week? And where does it say we are to give them a minimum of 10 percent of our hard earned to spend it as THEY SEE fit?? Now that's an interesting topic.
Does the bible prohibit a woman from being a "pastor"?
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There is a school of thought that we don't need male pastors either. What does "the Lord Is My Shepherd" mean? I think this topic is a red herring, lets get into the meat. Where does scripture say we are to go to a building and listen to someone preach to us every week? Or three times a week? And where does it say we are to give them a minimum of 10 percent of our hard earned to spend it as THEY SEE fit?? Now that's an interesting topic.
You may do better actually going to those threads that do exist and contribute there instead of trying to take this one off topic.
Hebrews 10:23-25
[sup]23 [/sup]Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. [sup]24 [/sup]And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, [sup]25 [/sup]not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another —and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
One could argue (if one was argumentative) that that the apostles used to record scripture where prophets but that's just getting mixed up with semantics. When that which is perfect has come aka the completed revelation of Gods word; prophesy and prophets cease. Why? Because we dont need them, WHY? Because we have Gods word. YIIIIIIIIIIIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Also, Eph 4;;11 says he GAVE, past tense, not GIVES. Wake up and smell the coffee Stanley.
Thanks for telling me what to do Stanley.
Hi Watchwithme,
Indeed. But Stan is spot on with Ephesians, if the biblical pattern is to be practised.
However, you must be well aware of what God has to say about false shepherds, and, sheep without a shepherd, and, the imperative to feed the sheep - carry the lambs - and does it really matter what external format is being observed for the sake of administration, if hearts are right with God?
So, Watchwithme,
Are you a cessationist?
Indeed. But Stan is spot on with Ephesians, if the biblical pattern is to be practised.
However, you must be well aware of what God has to say about false shepherds, and, sheep without a shepherd, and, the imperative to feed the sheep - carry the lambs - and does it really matter what external format is being observed for the sake of administration, if hearts are right with God?
So, Watchwithme,
Are you a cessationist?
I don't know what a cessationist is. A heart that is right with God is a heart that is obedient to God and without Gods word we wouldn't know how to obey Him. Do you scratch this bit out of your bible do you????
If so then whatever floats your boat mate, but don't call biblical Christianity. And Stan hasn't been right about anything yet.
Yes I guess you would argue, as normal, but God's word is NOT semantics, it is life. It sounds to me, because as usual you opine instead of providing scripture, that you are referring to 1 Cor 13.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [sup]9 [/sup]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [sup]10 [/sup]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [sup]11 [/sup]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [sup]12 [/sup]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Christ's second coming will be when completeness comes, and as He hasn't come, all those things are STILL required. The tense here in 1 Cor 13 is future, not past. Paul was in the future as far as Christ was concerned. Of course Eph 4:11 says gave, Jesus gave them when He was here, before Paul became an Apostle. Before Jesus actually died and then called Paul to be an Apostle to the Gentiles. If you don't actually understand grammar, I wouldn't try to use it's rules to make a point.
I wake up every morning and smell my coffee...love it. Dark roast.
Hopefully I won't have to tell you what to do for long.
THE END - Now go and have a cold shower then walk around the block in the spirit 5 times
goodshepard55
New Member
Lets stop the rudeness please. Everyone here deserves respect, whether you agree with their opinions or not...
Shep
Shep
1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Again cherry picking OUT of CONTEXT.
[sup]6 [/sup]Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? [sup]7 [/sup]Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? [sup]8 [/sup]Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? [sup]9 [/sup]So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. [sup]10 [/sup]Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. [sup]11 [/sup]If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. [sup]12 [/sup]So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
[sup]13 [/sup]For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. [sup]14 [/sup]For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [sup]15 [/sup]So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. [sup]16 [/sup]Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? [sup]17 [/sup]You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
[sup]18 [/sup]I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. [sup]19 [/sup]But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
[sup]20 [/sup]Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. [sup]21 [/sup]In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”
[sup]22 [/sup]Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. [sup]23 [/sup]So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? [sup]24 [/sup]But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, [sup]25 [/sup]as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
[sup]26 [/sup]What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. [sup]27 [/sup]If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. [sup]28 [/sup]If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
[sup]29 [/sup]Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. [sup]30 [/sup]And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. [sup]31 [/sup]For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. [sup]32 [/sup]The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. [sup]33 [/sup]For God is not a God of disorder but of peace —as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
Now this brings us to verse 34 & 35, which are taken by some people as declaritive, but they are NOT. Paul is quoting a statement that he had received from this church and is addressing it by starting with the quote. It was this church that started the controversy. Why in all the previous chapter would Paul address men & women equally, but then do a 180 and tell women to keep silent? ONLY cherry pickers take this as declaritive. For those who DO want to know what Paul was actually teaching, please see the following article. I have studied this for years but do not have the energy nor inclination to expound this when so many others have done a great job on it.
http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm
Cherry Picking? You seem to throw out the "Cherries" you don't like. To each his own I suppose.
Tongues will cease? When?
Hi Watchwithme,
A cessationist believes the Holy Spirit's ministry was over in the first century, or at least, before they need to apply the scriptures to themselves, in respect of the rigours live in the Spirit brings.
A cessationist believes the Holy Spirit's ministry was over in the first century, or at least, before they need to apply the scriptures to themselves, in respect of the rigours live in the Spirit brings.
I'm not a cessationist then. Im not sure the Holy Spirits ministry will ever cease. Tongues cease, propehesy ceases. Quite scriptural.
Full Question
I'm worried about my daughter. She left the Catholic Church and goes to this "Bible believing church." Her pastor says he's a prophet. He's always saying,"God told me to do this" or "God told me to do that." Then he asks his congregation to foot the bill for his projects, many of which never get finished. I think he's doing a lot of harm and is going to make lots of people unhappy. How can I get my daughter to see through this baloney?
Answer
Just because someone claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean he is. Sometimes people in extreme Pentecostal churches say God told them to do something when they really mean they feel like doing it or they think God wants them to do it.
Ask you daughter why, if her pastor gets such clear messages from the Holy Spirit, anyone needs the Bible. After all, if the Spirit ordinarily speaks so directly and clearly through her pastor, why should she waste time looking in the Bible for answers?
Also, be sure to keep track of these alleged prophecies and messages from the Holy Spirit. Over time you'll see a certain amount of vacillation: God supposedly saying one thing now, something completely different later on. You'll also see how some projects are begun as "what God wants to do with his people right now," only to peter out when the enthusiasm (and funds) drop off.
Your daughter needs to be reminded that these prophesied events haven't come to pass. Then have her read Deuteronomy 18:22 and come to her own conclusions about this alleged prophet.
Answered by:
Catholic Answers Staff
I'm worried about my daughter. She left the Catholic Church and goes to this "Bible believing church." Her pastor says he's a prophet. He's always saying,"God told me to do this" or "God told me to do that." Then he asks his congregation to foot the bill for his projects, many of which never get finished. I think he's doing a lot of harm and is going to make lots of people unhappy. How can I get my daughter to see through this baloney?
Answer
Just because someone claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean he is. Sometimes people in extreme Pentecostal churches say God told them to do something when they really mean they feel like doing it or they think God wants them to do it.
Ask you daughter why, if her pastor gets such clear messages from the Holy Spirit, anyone needs the Bible. After all, if the Spirit ordinarily speaks so directly and clearly through her pastor, why should she waste time looking in the Bible for answers?
Also, be sure to keep track of these alleged prophecies and messages from the Holy Spirit. Over time you'll see a certain amount of vacillation: God supposedly saying one thing now, something completely different later on. You'll also see how some projects are begun as "what God wants to do with his people right now," only to peter out when the enthusiasm (and funds) drop off.
Your daughter needs to be reminded that these prophesied events haven't come to pass. Then have her read Deuteronomy 18:22 and come to her own conclusions about this alleged prophet.
Answered by:
Catholic Answers StaffHi Kidron,
What did you think of the article Stan posted on women's ministry? http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm
I think it offers a useful insight.
Hi neophyte,
Aren't these two statements blindingly contradictory?
and
??? :huh:
What did you think of the article Stan posted on women's ministry? http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm
I think it offers a useful insight.
Hi neophyte,
Aren't these two statements blindingly contradictory?
and
??? :huh:
You are having comphehensive difficulties, please re-read both question and answer , if the pastor believe he is a prophet why does he need a Bible ? Get it....The daughter believes in the Word of God is given the advice my us Catholics to read the Bible and she will find the answer in this verse of Deuteronomy 18:22 . God Bless
dragonfly,
It's true that it does not take a lot of room to have 120 people sitting down and less room if they are standing up. I have had 46 people in my living room before and it is probably 20 x 17 and we were comfortable.
If you take your time and follow this, you will see how simple it is that no one was divided into separate rooms.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Who were THEY that were come into the upper room where 11 of the Apostles already were? Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James, Simon Zelotes and Judas the brother of James were already in the room and then the text says, "they were come in"?
Here we have 11 Apostles. Judas hung himself and Matthias has not been appointed to take Judas' place yet.
But the text say, "they were come in " --- to some a room where 11 Apostles already were.
So who were THEY that came into the SAME upper room as the 11 who were already there?
Well, whoever THEY were, THESE ALL were with the 11 and so were some women and Mary the mother of Jesus. The women and Mary, the mother of Jesus may have already been there with the Apostles.
Act 1:14 THESE ALL continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
All of them continued in one accord and then Peter stands up in this room in the midst of the disciples (about 120 of them in this room) and speaks to all of them.
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
It seems like pretty plain speech to me. These 120 were in the same upper room and the Holy Spirit fell on all of them. Never once, is there any mention of 2 rooms and always when something is happening it is happening to "THEY ALL" or "THESE ALL". Not only are 2 or 3 or 4 rooms not mentioned, but no dividing up of brethren are mentioned.
Continuiing the flow of Acts chapter 1:
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Again, the Holy Spirit likes to keep underscoring "THEY WERE ALL"
Again, we see THEY WERE ALL filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:4 And THEY WERE ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now, at which point were "ALL" separated and some went into one room while others went to another room. Simple. There is no such separation described in the text, in fact the opposite is described. "and THEY ALL continued in one accord."
Now, all of this coheres quite well with Joel 2:28 and 2:29.
Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Axehead
Hi neophyte,
The answer to your question is several fold but I'll give three points.
First, Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.
It is on this basis that the judging of prophecy is to be done by those present who are also prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What this means, in the context of 1 Corinthians 14, is, that if the body is assembled there will be those who are not prophets to whom the onerous task of judging the other prophesies is not given. Here is where the witness of the Holy Spirit is vital, because this is what the daughter has on her side, to be 'comforted' by the prophetic word, having the witness that it is indeed from God. She will also have her Bible knowledge by which to judge the character of God as He is being declared by the prophets.
The glaring error in the Catholic Answers is that it is based on unscriptural assumptions: first, that just one person in an assembly can prophesy with no-one judging if it is a word from God, and secondly that if there is prophecy, then those present - especially the prophet - can do away with the Bible. Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The answer to your question is several fold but I'll give three points.
First, Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.
It is on this basis that the judging of prophecy is to be done by those present who are also prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What this means, in the context of 1 Corinthians 14, is, that if the body is assembled there will be those who are not prophets to whom the onerous task of judging the other prophesies is not given. Here is where the witness of the Holy Spirit is vital, because this is what the daughter has on her side, to be 'comforted' by the prophetic word, having the witness that it is indeed from God. She will also have her Bible knowledge by which to judge the character of God as He is being declared by the prophets.
The glaring error in the Catholic Answers is that it is based on unscriptural assumptions: first, that just one person in an assembly can prophesy with no-one judging if it is a word from God, and secondly that if there is prophecy, then those present - especially the prophet - can do away with the Bible. Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
My Bible says" "The End of the Prophets" at the end of the Old Testament. Stay away from people who claim to be prophets people.
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