Another example of the KJV Bible contradicting itself
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Apparent contradiction is eliminated through understanding this earth that encompasses hours, days, weeks, months, years IOW time has an end, but the new earth to come shall never end.
2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:13 (KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:5 (KJV) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Isaiah 66:22 (KJV) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
You see there is no contradiction, the earth will both end, and endure forever! We simply need to understand if the words apply to the earth we now have or the new earth that shall come.
2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:13 (KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:5 (KJV) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Isaiah 66:22 (KJV) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
You see there is no contradiction, the earth will both end, and endure forever! We simply need to understand if the words apply to the earth we now have or the new earth that shall come.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Awareness is the key as there is no perfect version. Comparing versions which is easy to do today really helps in understanding. Most of the time when a version of the Bible contradicts itself, it is our understanding that is flawed.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Ooo, cool!
I find the Ephesians translations interesting. When translating a doxology like Ephesians 3:21, which is more important, literal accuracy, theological point-making, or capturing the author's sense of poetry? All of the translations given capture the poetic sense. I like that!
The Matthew translation has its own issues. "End of the aion" carries echoes from Stoic philosophy, where everything ends in the big conflagration. (See also RWB's Second Pete reference.) "End of the world" for us 21st century folk carries images of nuclear holocaust and nothing left to save. "End of the Eon" doesn't work for those of us who know that scientifically an "Eon" is defined as a unit of time that's one billion years. "End of the age" (NIV) might better capture the sense of one thing coming to an end and another one beginning. So, that's right folks, in this case, NIV is superior to KJV!
(Let's throw some gasoline on that fire!)
I find the Ephesians translations interesting. When translating a doxology like Ephesians 3:21, which is more important, literal accuracy, theological point-making, or capturing the author's sense of poetry? All of the translations given capture the poetic sense. I like that!
The Matthew translation has its own issues. "End of the aion" carries echoes from Stoic philosophy, where everything ends in the big conflagration. (See also RWB's Second Pete reference.) "End of the world" for us 21st century folk carries images of nuclear holocaust and nothing left to save. "End of the Eon" doesn't work for those of us who know that scientifically an "Eon" is defined as a unit of time that's one billion years. "End of the age" (NIV) might better capture the sense of one thing coming to an end and another one beginning. So, that's right folks, in this case, NIV is superior to KJV!
(Let's throw some gasoline on that fire!)
The Greek word αἰών essentially means a specific system of things. From the human point of view, mankind passes from one system of things to another at different times. New generations appear with new fashions, new laws and points of view, new customs, etc. Although some traditions and beliefs remain stable and remain continuous, most things change from one αἰών to the next. The phrase "of the eon of the eons" basically means "in all generations to come" or "forever".
The translation of some Greek idiomatic phrases cannot be literal, but they are translated in such a way that their meaning is understood in modern expressions:
"εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων" __ "to all generations forever and ever"
Eon has to do with human populations in each time. Jesus said:
Matt. 12:32 (...) whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things (literally "in this eon") nor in that to come.
Scriptures refer to the judgment of this system of things as its end (Matt. 13:39) and the beginning of a new one with a new human population that will never die.
Psal. 45:17 I will make your name known throughout all generations to come.
That is why peoples will praise you forever and ever.
In Luke 20:35 Jesus talks about "those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things" i.e. Gr.: οἱ ... καταξιωθέντες τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐκείνου τυχεῖν",
The translation of some Greek idiomatic phrases cannot be literal, but they are translated in such a way that their meaning is understood in modern expressions:
"εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων" __ "to all generations forever and ever"
Eon has to do with human populations in each time. Jesus said:
Matt. 12:32 (...) whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things (literally "in this eon") nor in that to come.
Scriptures refer to the judgment of this system of things as its end (Matt. 13:39) and the beginning of a new one with a new human population that will never die.
Psal. 45:17 I will make your name known throughout all generations to come.
That is why peoples will praise you forever and ever.
In Luke 20:35 Jesus talks about "those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things" i.e. Gr.: οἱ ... καταξιωθέντες τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐκείνου τυχεῖν",
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
God offers life or death sir, but it is your choice, He and I recommend you choose life, Deut 30:19,20
Faith in Jesus saves believers from death, judgment, condemnation, and a trip to the Lake of Fire.
Some will die and be judged and condemned to the Lake of Fire, but it's not eternal. That is where you and most other Christians have a fundamental but significant misunderstanding of the process. Read 1 Corinthians 15, my brother.
Somehow, Patrick, you have missed what verse 15:56 is saying. The sting of our sin results in the second death, which after the judgement of all men, is then removed for all of eternity, with no way of escaping from its destiny in the lake of fire. Rev 20 tells us this. Unless, at the time of the final judgement, our name is not found in the Book of life because of our sin(s) then we will be cast into the Lake of fire along with Hades.
I somehow think that you have the CATS understanding of God. You have watered down the consequences of committing unrepented sin to the point that it is now acceptable to God and if you do your penance in the Lake off fire then you can then stake your claim on obtaining "everlasting life" I am sorry, I have not yet found that theological understanding in the scriptures that I read.
The parable of the lost sheep my brother. Jesus never stops searching. Jesus will reign until ALL are with him. And then he'll give the kingdom to God.
So, what you are saying is that the Seventh Age has an infinite duration and that it is much longer than the reported 1,000 years in scripture.
Now the Parable of the Lost Sheep does not support that understanding. Ezekiel 47:1-12 indicates that there is a finite timeframe for the stream flowing out from under the Altar until the stream cascades over the escarpment into the valley below. From the time that God occupies Solomon's Temple until the flowing stream begins to cascade over the escarpment into the valley below, my understanding is that only 4,000 years will unfold, until the time of the final judgement.
Yes, Jesus does go out to search for all of the lost sheep, but we are also told that there will be a great falling away of the saints just before the final judgement. Now Jesus warned us that if we Greive the Holy Spirit, that the HS cannot forgive us.
Your understanding with respect to a person's salvation and the time limits that are applied to when that salvation is available is suspect.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
@Patrick1966
What do you do with texts such as, "love not the world"? What is the world that John is referring to here?
What do you do with the expression, "worldview"? In order to have a worldview, must we be in an airplane or standing on the moon?
When scripture says, end of the world, I suggest it is not speaking of the planet, but rather the present order of things under current sovereign rule, the prince of this world. That world is about to end, but at the end of the millennium, after the planet has spent 1000 years enjoying it's overdue Sabbath rest, there will be a new Sheriff in town, there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but still the same planet... But definitely a whole new world.
There may be a Bible translation somewhere with absolutely no contradictions whatsoever. But I would suggest there may very well be omissions, additions, human surmising in those translations that render the entire scripture as a lie. Which is worse you think?
What do you do with texts such as, "love not the world"? What is the world that John is referring to here?
What do you do with the expression, "worldview"? In order to have a worldview, must we be in an airplane or standing on the moon?
When scripture says, end of the world, I suggest it is not speaking of the planet, but rather the present order of things under current sovereign rule, the prince of this world. That world is about to end, but at the end of the millennium, after the planet has spent 1000 years enjoying it's overdue Sabbath rest, there will be a new Sheriff in town, there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but still the same planet... But definitely a whole new world.
There may be a Bible translation somewhere with absolutely no contradictions whatsoever. But I would suggest there may very well be omissions, additions, human surmising in those translations that render the entire scripture as a lie. Which is worse you think?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
A "worldview" is a philosophical identity construct that answers the questions, "Who are we?" "Where are we?" "What's wrong?" "What's the answer?" "What time is it?"
You can see that "The End of the Age" (or "The end of the Aion") means the end to one or more of the components of "Worldview".
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
May I ask what you understand the term second death to mean Pat?
Do you have a particular point from 1 Cor 15?
My brother, it's all right there in the Bible. Because of what Jesus did, ALL mankind will live! Jesus will rule until all enemies are under his feet. That means that Jesus is WAITING on the lost to, through the Lake of Fire, finally come to him! Jesus wouldn't need to wait a second if he was simply going to damn them for eternity or destroy them. ALL enemies includes Satan, the "fallen" angels, demons, and all lost people. They will ALL go to Jesus! Once ALL are accounted for, Jesus will give the completed kingdom to God the Father. Again, brother, it's all right there.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - English Standard Version
The Resurrection of Christ - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what...
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
The second death is for the ungodly. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire until they are changed and go to Jesus. In the end all will go to Jesus and then ALL will be given to God.
My brother, it's all right there in the Bible. Because of what Jesus did, ALL mankind will live! Jesus will rule until all enemies are under his feet. That means that Jesus is WAITING on the lost to, through the Lake of Fire, finally come to him! Jesus wouldn't need to wait a second if he was simply going to damn them for eternity or destroy them. ALL enemies includes Satan, the "fallen" angels, demons, and all lost people. They will ALL go to Jesus! Once ALL are accounted for, Jesus will give the completed kingdom to God the Father. Again, brother, it's all right there.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - English Standard Version
The Resurrection of Christ - Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what...www.biblegateway.com
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Sounds like C.A.T.S. and R.A.T.S. to me.
Sounds like you are trying to preach a very different Gospel to the one in the scriptures.
Well if you are wrong you may be leading people to Hell with your 'license to sin' "garbage doctrine" of Universalism. How do you think that will work for you on Judgment Day?
Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Satan loves Universalism! He wants our company in Hell "forever and ever".
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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