The Son of Man returns with and for his people

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Spiritual Israelite

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Just go with what it says, that's why I'm not adding comment. No hope, means, not having hope, right? Strangers . . . without God?

And that because they were not part of Israel. This is just the plain wording of the verse, and I read it just like you are reading this sentence. Because language is language, and God is to be believed.

So I'm not making any suggestions or anything, only pointing to the wording of that verse. It says directly the point I was making, that God has made distinctions between the nations, and yes, even in terms of salvation. Does that mean God cannot or will not grant mercy to various individuals at times of His choosing? Of course not!

But you ask whether God makes ethnic or national distinctions concerning salvation, that verse sums it up.
Regardless of whether that is true or not regarding the past, is that true now and has it been true for the past almost 2,000 years? How do you interpret a passage like this:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Do you accept the plain meaning of this passage, which would mean you accept that God does not show favoritism towards anyone in any nation, including Israel, when it comes to who He accepts as His people? Is there any reason to believe this will change at any point in the future? There certainly is nothing anywhere in scripture to suggest that.
 

marks

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But, what were they chosen for? They were not chosen for salvation as if God wants the people of that nation to be saved and not other nations. Obviously, God wants all people of all nations to be saved. No, their nation was chosen to be the one through which salvation would come to the world. And it did by way of Jesus because He was a Jew.
I'll once again refer you to the many passages I've posted which very clearly state otherwise, that there is more than that salvation is of the Jews.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Just staying with this one example, of many, so long as the natural order specified endures, so Israel remains a nation - not a collection of indivuals, some in, some out, but a nation, just like you'd think of it - before God.

The argument is made that because they were so very bad, that God cast them away, but that is specifically addressed in the passage.

Nothing in Scripture contradicts this, and very much supports it. And if you don't accept the plain sense meaning of this passage, I daresay you will have to likewise not accept the plain sense meaning of a great many passages. And you do seem to demonstrate that.

Much love!
 

marks

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Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Like I said . . . this is about how God means this, not people. That God is not a respector of persons does not mean that He cannot choose one nation from among the others, and make certain promises that pertain to them. And then go on to keep those promises.

How many nations suffered in the famine in Joseph's day? How many nations did God favor? He gave advance knowledge to Pharoah. And in the famine, He gave favor to Israel.

And again, Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, not to the gentiles. And still, God is not a respector of persons. We don't use our understanding of a certain passage in negating another passage. When we find that happening, we need to examine our understanding, and find new understandings that are in harmony with the balance of the Bible, without negating it's word.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I'll once again refer you to the many passages I've posted which very clearly state otherwise, that there is more than that salvation is of the Jews.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Just staying with this one example, of many, so long as the natural order specified endures, so Israel remains a nation - not a collection of indivuals, some in, some out, but a nation, just like you'd think of it - before God.
This has already been addressed. That relates to the new covenant and NT scripture makes it very clear that the new covenant was ushered in long ago and that Gentile believers are included in it. Is there something you don't understand about what Paul said in Ephesians 3:1-6 about Gentile believers being fellowheirs with Israelite believers? Is that something you're just not willing to accept?

The argument is made that because they were so very bad, that God cast them away, but that is specifically addressed in the passage.
Who said God cast them away (as in, all of them)? Not me. Paul said He did not cast them away because there was "a remnant according to the election of grace.".

Nothing in Scripture contradicts this, and very much supports it.
Right. Romans 11:1-5 supports that God did not cast away the nation of Israel as a whole. It was only those who were in unbelief (Romans 11:20).

And if you don't accept the plain sense meaning of this passage, I daresay you will have to likewise not accept the plain sense meaning of a great many passages. And you do seem to demonstrate that.
This is utter nonsense. I accept the intended meaning of every passage whether it's written plainly (literally) or figuratively and I allow the New Testament authors to tell me how the Old Testament should be understood. It seems to me that you think you know more than the NT authors because your understanding of OT prophecies does not line up with theirs. NT scripture repeatedly teaches about how Gentile believers are "fellow citizens", "fellowheirs" and "one body" with Israelite believers, but you keep trying to create division where Jesus created unity by way of His shed blood.
 

marks

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Do you accept the plain meaning of this passage, which would mean you accept that God does not show favoritism towards anyone in any nation, including Israel, when it comes to who He accepts as His people? Is there any reason to believe this will change at any point in the future? There certainly is nothing anywhere in scripture to suggest that.
This is parallel to your complaint, isn't it?

I've been saying that God promised Israel that they will be rescued when God comes to stand upon the earth, and that all of them will be saved, and will be gathered to the land that was promised to them so very long ago. And that the blessings of their covenant with God will be realized by them, said covenant having been fulfilled for them by Jesus Christ.

Nothing about this makes any statement whatsoever about whether God accepts or doesn't individuals from gentile nations. Yes, absolutely, we know that God accepts all who come to Him in faith, those who fear Him, working righteousness. He brings them to Jesus Christ.

And nothing about that fact has any bearing on whether or not God can or will do what He said He would through so many prophets.

Much love!
 

CadyandZoe

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Does Acts 10:34,35 deny it?

The NT elect is exclusively the Church.

Nothing to be confused about.
The NT is not exclusively the church. The Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles defend the idea that Jesus is the Christ from Evidence in the OT and one can not understand portions of the NT without a firm grasp of the OT as background material.
 
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CadyandZoe

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God slew unfaithful disobedient descendants by the thousands.

He didn't choose the dead.

Yes, they were required to be faithful and obedient, as were the Jews.
While they were required to be faithful and obedient, it doesn't follow, therefore, they weren't chosen.
 

marks

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This has already been addressed. That relates to the new covenant and NT scripture makes it very clear that the new covenant was ushered in long ago and that Gentile believers are included in it. Is there something you don't understand about what Paul said in Ephesians 3:1-6 about Gentile believers being fellowheirs with Israelite believers? Is that something you're just not willing to accept?
That doesn't change God's promises to ethnic Israel.

You are saying, This passage, which proclaimed Israel's status before God, you are saying, Well, the passage isn't about that, so that's not what it means.

Well, the passage, the part I keep quoting over and over, it actually IS about that. So I stand with what it says.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is utter nonsense. I accept the intended meaning of every passage whether it's written plainly (literally) or figuratively and I allow the New Testament authors to tell me how the Old Testament should be understood. It seems to me that you think you know more than the NT authors because your understanding of OT prophecies does not line up with theirs. NT scripture repeatedly teaches about how Gentile believers are "fellow citizens", "fellowheirs" and "one body" with Israelite believers, but you keep trying to create division where Jesus created unity by way of His shed blood.
There is the same problem here. You think these things mean God can't/won't fulfill His promise to others. Paul affirms that God will keep His promise.

That the two would be one new man . . .

A new man, not the others added into the original man, IE Israel. In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. Neither Greek nor Jew.

We don't become spiritual Isrealites, we become in Christ, where there is neither Greek nor Jew.

To the natural Israelites, God has promises to keep, and keep them He will.

Much love!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Like I said . . . this is about how God means this, not people. That God is not a respector of persons does not mean that He cannot choose one nation from among the others, and make certain promises that pertain to them. And then go on to keep those promises.
Do you agree that for at least the past almost 2,000 years He hast not favored the people of one nation over another when it comes to salvation? Yes or no, please.

You continue to talk about His keeping His promises regarding land to the people of Israel. What about what it says in Hebrews 11:8-16? Why are you expecting them to inherit a temporal promised land when the Old Testament Israelites looked "for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" and "desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God"? God has much better things prepared for His people than just a temporal piece of land. Those Old Testament saints came to realize that, so why don't you realize that?

How many nations suffered in the famine in Joseph's day? How many nations did God favor? He gave advance knowledge to Pharoah. And in the famine, He gave favor to Israel.

And again, Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, not to the gentiles. And still, God is not a respector of persons.
Again, I'm saying He is not a respecter of persons in terms of salvation, which is true. Jesus did not go "to the lost sheep of Israel" because He favored them. It was God's plan to first bring salvation to Israel and then have the gospel spread from there to the entire world (Acts 1:8). While Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, it doesn't mean He didn't have His "other sheep" (Gentile believers) in mind.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The "one fold" Jesus talked about here is Jew and Gentile believers that are brought together in the "one body" of Christ.

We don't use our understanding of a certain passage in negating another passage. When we find that happening, we need to examine our understanding, and find new understandings that are in harmony with the balance of the Bible, without negating it's word.
I have said something similar to you before, so the differences in our opinions are not based on one of us understanding the concept you described here and the other one not understanding it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There is the same problem here. You think these things mean God can't/won't fulfill His promise to others.
If you don't stop saying things like this then we're done. So, tell me if you plan on doing that or not.

I would never suggest that "God can't/won't fulfill His promise to others". That is very insulting for you to imply that. This isn't a case of you believing that God will fulfill His promises and me not believing that. That's ridiculous. We simply have a different understanding of the fulfillment of some of His promises. He will keep all of His promises regardless of whether you or I understand them properly or not.

Paul affirms that God will keep His promise.
Did I ever say that God won't keep His promise? No, I have not. Just because my understanding of His promise isn't the same as yours doesn't mean I don't believe He will keep His promise. He, of course, keeps all of His promises and that isn't dependent on whether we understand how He will do that or not.

That the two would be one new man . . .

A new man, not the others added into the original man, IE Israel. In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. Neither Greek nor Jew.

We don't become spiritual Isrealites, we become in Christ, where there is neither Greek nor Jew.
Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

To the natural Israelites, God has promises to keep, and keep them He will.
I agree. For example:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

This is a prophecy that Paul referenced in Romans 11 and you think it will be fulfilled some time in the future. Paul paraphrased the prophecy in Romans 11:26-27 by saying "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.".

Scripture indicates the the Redeemer/Deliverer already came to Zion to "turn away ungodliness from Jacob" and establish His covenant (the new covenant) to take away their sins long ago:

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Does your understanding of that prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21 line up with what Peter said in the above passage?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This is parallel to your complaint, isn't it?

I've been saying that God promised Israel that they will be rescued when God comes to stand upon the earth, and that all of them will be saved, and will be gathered to the land that was promised to them so very long ago. And that the blessings of their covenant with God will be realized by them, said covenant having been fulfilled for them by Jesus Christ.

Nothing about this makes any statement whatsoever about whether God accepts or doesn't individuals from gentile nations. Yes, absolutely, we know that God accepts all who come to Him in faith, those who fear Him, working righteousness. He brings them to Jesus Christ.

And nothing about that fact has any bearing on whether or not God can or will do what He said He would through so many prophets.
Do you believe that God wants all people to be saved? If so, then please explain why He would do something to ensure the salvation of all people in one nation, but not for any other nation. How does that line up with Him not being a respecter of persons and with Him wanting all people to be saved?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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That doesn't change God's promises to ethnic Israel.

You are saying, This passage, which proclaimed Israel's status before God, you are saying, Well, the passage isn't about that, so that's not what it means.

Well, the passage, the part I keep quoting over and over, it actually IS about that. So I stand with what it says.
So, you're just going to ignore what I said then? Did Paul not indicate that it was a mystery in Old Testament times that Gentile believers would be "fellowheirs" with Israelite believers in Ephesians 3:1-6? Should that be ignored? It is Paul who taught that promises that previously were assumed to only be for Israel would be applied to Gentile believers as well. Are you not willing to accept that? Do you somehow know better than Paul how God's promises should be fulfilled? He said Gentile believers are "fellowheirs", but you seem to say they are not.
 

marks

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Does your understanding of that prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21 line up with what Peter said in the above passage?
You are not showing what you think these prophecies mean, or how they are fulfilled, only presenting these arguments about how I shouldn't accept what they say. There are NT affirmations, the passages are clearly stated, and there are no contradictions.

You've not shown how these prophecies are contradicted. You've addressed spiritual identification but I'm talking about ethnic - material - identification. It's non-sequitor.

Take this passage for example,

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This is a prophecy that on it's face tells us that God will with a mighty judgment destroy Israel's enemies, and return them to their land, after their captivity, and that He would leave none of them any longer in their enemies' lands, and that He would pour out His Spirit on the House of Israel, that is, the ethnic group.

If these passages aren't saying this, what then are they saying? And how do you know? And I'm always curious to ask . . .

Imagine with me, if you will, that God selected a nation, and told them if they didn't keep His covenant, that they'd be exiled from their land, but that God would restore them, every last one of them, when that time comes, and that they'd never have to leave it again, just imagine, this were God's message.

How would you suppose that He might express that? How would He say it?

Then why don't we accept it when He does say it?

Nothing you've posted has shown me any contradiction to this. If you have one most certain example, quote both passages, and show me which words from Ezekiel I should understand in some allegorical fashion. Because I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing a very harmonious whole, of to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile, right through the end of the age, and beyond. Exactly as Scripture tells us, first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Do you believe that God wants all people to be saved? If so, then please explain why He would do something to ensure the salvation of all people in one nation, but not for any other nation.
Why did God choose Abraham? Why, out of all the people on the earth in that day, did God single out one man to call out of his home? Why not all men? Or none?

God did single out just one man, and then singled out one of his sons, and one of that son's sons.

God called Himself wedded to Israel, why only Israel? I'm telling you . . . this is all through the Bible.

Yes, God wants all to repent, and be saved, He said so plainly. And in His desire that all men be saved, He has also selected a certain nation that when the time comes, He will save all of them. Why is this a problem for you? That He doesn't do the same with all the other nations? It's not fair? Moral outrage against God should He do such a thing? Singling out one man? Or one nation? Or maybe three nations?

Isaiah 19
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You are not showing what you think these prophecies mean, or how they are fulfilled, only presenting these arguments about how I shouldn't accept what they say.
I did, too. Did you see that I quoted Acts 3:24-26? I'm saying that it is related to that.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

What did Paul indicate that the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21 is about? He indicated that it's about the Deliverer, Jesus, coming "to turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins". That is where Acts 3:24-26 comes in. Did Peter not say that Jesus was already sent to turn away ungodliness from Jacob long ago? Peter said he was sent to "the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers" to "bless you" and turn "away every one of you from his iniquities". Did He fail? No. What more could He have done to accomplish that than to sacrifice Himself for their sins? What is He supposed to do in the future to provide for their salvation that He hasn't already done?

You've not shown how these prophecies are contradicted.
Why would I try to show prophecies being contradicted? There are no contradictions in scripture. What are you talking about?

You've addressed spiritual identification but I'm talking about ethnic - material - identification. It's non-sequitor.
Why does the "spiritual identification" mean nothing to you?
 
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marks

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so why don't you realize that?
Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom? This was their question to Jesus before He returned to heaven. I think this makes it pretty clear what they thought.

"It's not that kind of Kingdom", He answered . . . no, no, that's not what He said. "Its not for you to know when". Hmm.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why did God choose Abraham? Why, out of all the people on the earth in that day, did God single out one man to call out of his home? Why not all men? Or none?
I'm talking about salvation here. He didn't choose for Abraham to be saved while withholding salvation from everyone else. Try to stay on topic here.

Yes, God wants all to repent, and be saved, He said so plainly. And in His desire that all men be saved, He has also selected a certain nation that when the time comes, He will save all of them. Why is this a problem for you?
Why would you ask this when I have repeatedly said that He is not a respecter of persons when it comes to salvation? Isn't it obvious that this would make Him a respecter of persons if He did something to save all people in one nation but did not do that for the people of other nations? To me, that violates His character.

That He doesn't do the same with all the other nations? It's not fair?
It's not about not being fair. It's about God doing things that line up with His character. That He doesn't favor anyone in regards to salvation in terms of their nationality means He would not do something for the people of one nation to save them that He wouldn't do for any other nation. That's why He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world and not just for the sins of the people of one nation.

Moral outrage against God should He do such a thing?
Of course I would not have moral outrage against God. You continue to say ridiculous things like that without even thinking. As if anyone here would have moral outrage against God for any reason. That's ludicrous. If I have moral outrage then it's against the idea of making God out to be someone He is not by showing Him to favor the people of one nation over the rest by saving all of them but not saving all of the people of any other nation. God doesn't work that way. Since He wants all people to be saved and isn't a respecter of persons, it only follows that He would make the same way for salvation for all people. And He did by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

Singling out one man? Or one nation? Or maybe three nations?

Isaiah 19
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Are you saying you think that God will give preference in relation to salvation to Egypt, Assyria and Israel in the future? If not, then what you're saying is not related to what I'm talking about.
 
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