The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[marks]

27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ. They have nothing to do with "nation" or "land".

Context, always context.

they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is directly in context of God remembering Israel (contrasted to the Gentiles) and His covenant with them.

And BTW . . . God did actually give them a land, with defined bounderies, given specifically to them, and even allotted out tribe by tribe. He called them out of Egypt, and gave them the Promised Land.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your argument contains a few critical errors that render it invalid. First, it ignores Peter's opening remarks. He is writing to the "diaspora", the Hebrew people who remained in exile. Second, the argument mistakenly assumes that the Gentiles were "not a people", when in fact, Hebrews in the diaspora were called "not my people."

I agree with your interpretation of 1 Peter 2:5-7, where Peter talks about being built into a spiritual house. This is true of all believers in Christ. Nonetheless, your argument fails because you incorrectly concluded that Peter's description of part of the church, which consists of Hebrew believers, must be true of the entire church.

Peter speaks about the diaspora as "not my people" because, in the Hebrew experience, God declared that the Ten Tribes were "not my people." And those among his kinsmen who accept that Jesus is the cornerstone, are as stones being added to the house that God is building.

But it does not follow that what is true of a part is also true of the whole. Part of the church, the believing Hebrews among the diaspora, were once "not a people" but it doesn't follow, therefore, the entire church was once "not a people." While it is true that the Hebrews of the diaspora were once members of a chosen race, it does not follow that the entire church is now a chosen race. Just because the Hebrews came to faith in Jesus Christ it doesn't follow that everything true of the Hebrews is also true of the church.

I completely disagree. Have you never read the following passage where Paul explains who were once not a people and became "one body" together in a spiritual house of God with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This describes the Gentile believers as formerly not being the people of God "but now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ". They are joined together with Israelite believers in one body "by the blood of Christ". The Gentile believers became "fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone". Does that not remind you of the text in 1 Peter 2:5-7? How can you act as if what Peter said there has nothing to do with the church as a whole and only relates to Israelite believers when Paul described Gentile believers in the same way that Peter described the people he was writing to?

We are both using the surrounding verses.

I don't see you doing that.

However, you maintain that a description of the Hebrew exiles, who are but a fraction of the church at large, is also true of the entire church.

It is, and I just showed that above. How could you not be familiar with Ephesians 2:11-22? It seems that you maybe have never read it. I don't know any other way you would say what you said here.

I do not find strong evidence that Peter held this view. Evidence indicates the Apostle's familiarity with the Hebrew people, their history with God, and their commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But evidence is lacking that he equated the two. Not all characteristics shared by the Hebrew people are shared by the church at large. The Hebrew people were coming to faith and as the apostle to the Hebrews (as Paul said) he employs vocabulary and concepts familiar to them as a people. Not everything true of the Hebrew converts is true of the entire church.

In terms of what Peter described in 1 Peter 2, everything he said applies to Gentile believers as well.

As I said above, it is not valid to conclude that everything true of a subset of Christians is also true of the entire set.

What is true about the ones Peter wrote to that is not true of Gentile Christians? That's what we're talking about.

Yes. of course. I agree that God is building a spiritual house containing all who believe. I do not agree, however, that everything true of the Hebrew exiles is also true of God's house.

I'm not even saying that. I'm saying that everything Peter said in 1 Peter 2 can be applied to both Jew and Gentile believers. He said that those he was writing to are a "spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. Are Israelites in their own "spiritual house" apart from the church? No, right? So, how could Peter have been referring to any "spiritual house" with Jesus as the cornerstone besides the church? This is what you have not addressed so far. Can you address it now?

Again, although God is erecting a spiritual house, which contains members from among the Hebrews, it does not follow that the entire house shares Hebrew characteristics.

The entire house, which is the church, share Christian characteristics. That is what matters. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the church which means that "Hebrew characteristics" and "Gentile characteristics" have nothing to do with being in the church.

I don't want to go there because I believe that you and I are having an honest and fair dialog. I don't want to say anything to disparage your capabilities or your motives. I might be mistaken in my views. I readily admit that. But rest assured that my strong push-back is not due to my simply "wanting to just believe what I want to believe."

I am genuinely interested in what you say and I am trying to understand it. I assume you are doing the same.

Your attempts at just dismissing what I was saying before make it difficult for me to believe you are being genuine here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet still more . . .

Matthew 10:5-6 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:21-24 KJV
21) Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And even so, God is not a respector of persons - In the way He means it. Which is to say, if God chooses one person over another, or one group of people over another, that doesn't mean He is unfairly biased.

Jesus was sent to Israel and not the other nations, which is plainly stated truth in Scripture.

Romans 9:10-14 KJV
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

I sometimes wonder that as a person may realize about themself that they hold predudices against others, and employ double standards, and give partiality based on their opinions of others, that they feel God must be like them, and therefore can't understand how God could actually choose one nation over another without unrighteousness.

Just the same, God did in fact choose one nation over the others, and separated that nation, and continues to separate that nation.

Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:6-11 KJV
6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11) For there is no respect of persons with God.

You will notice here that this speaks of the Jew and the gentile receiving their reward, whether eternal life, or wrath. Tribulation and anguish, or glory, honor and peace - - - "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile". Jews and Gentiles remain separated even in judgment.

For God to show a separation between Jews and Gentiles is not showing "respect of persons", and in fact, that God will address each in their own order is presented as evidence of this fact. This separation in no wise contradicts that, or harms the idea. And it endures just as God had said.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

I have to wonder if you're actually reading everything I'm saying. God does NOT choose one nation over another in terms of doing more to save people in that nation than He does for people in other nations. Do you agree? If not, then you still don't know what it means for God to not be a respecter of persons.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you attempting to argue that nations don't exist? That's what it sounds like.

Why ask a ridiculous question like this? You know that he, as well as everyone else, would never attempt to make a dumb argument like that. So, why ask that question?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Context, always context.

they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is directly in context of God remembering Israel (contrasted to the Gentiles) and His covenant with them.

And BTW . . . God did actually give them a land, with defined bounderies, given specifically to them, and even allotted out tribe by tribe. He called them out of Egypt, and gave them the Promised Land.

I agree that it's always about context, but you are missing the context of the verse you referenced here. Is it saying the entire nation of Israel, including unbelievers, are "beloved for the fathers' sakes", as you seem to believe? No, it is not. For context, you need to go back to what Paul wrote earlier. First, I'll quote the passage that the verse you referenced is in and then I'll quote what Paul said earlier that shows the context.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Who is Paul saying are beloved here? He indicates that it's "the election". Who are they? We can find that out by reading what he wrote earlier here:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Notice here how Paul separates the Israelites of his day into two groups here. One is "a remnant according to the election of grace" that he also calls "the election". Those are believers. He refers to the unbelieving Israelites as "the rest" who "were blinded".

So, when Paul later said "they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes" he was saying "the rest" who "were blinded", the unbelieving Israelites, "are enemies for your sakes". And he said "as touching the election", which were the "remnant according to the election of grace" (believing Israelites), "they are beloved for the father's sakes".

So, Paul was not contrasting the entire nation of Israel with Gentiles there as you claimed, he was contrasting believeing Israelites ("the election") with unbelieving Israelites ("the rest" who "were blinded").

 

[marks]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Yes, I know these things, and it doesn't change what I wrote. The prophets addressed this also. Do you want to know the passages? Where 2/3 will perish, while the 1/3 remnent will be saved, for instance?

The promise is that all who endure to the end of the great tribulation are rescued from destruction by Jesus when He returns, and they believe in Him, and all remaining are saved, reborn, Spirit-filled, with a new heart, and are become a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, Paul was not contrasting the entire nation of Israel with Gentiles there as you claimed, he was contrasting believeing Israelites ("the election") with unbelieving Israelites ("the rest" who "were blinded").

Romans 11:25-29 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I'll simply have to disagree with you.

You are talking about a distinction within Israel, that some were blinded, and some not. I'm talking about a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles, as highlighted above.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Context, always context.

they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is directly in context of God remembering Israel (contrasted to the Gentiles) and His covenant with them.

And BTW . . . God did actually give them a land, with defined bounderies, given specifically to them, and even allotted out tribe by tribe. He called them out of Egypt, and gave them the Promised Land.

Much love!

I agree that it's always about context, but you are missing the context of the verse you referenced here. Is it saying the entire nation of Israel, including unbelievers, are "beloved for the fathers' sakes", as you seem to believe? No, it is not. For context, you need to go back to what Paul wrote earlier. First, I'll quote the passage that the verse you referenced is in and then I'll quote what Paul said earlier that shows the context.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Who is Paul saying are beloved here? He indicates that it's "the election". Who are they? We can find that out by reading what he wrote earlier here:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Notice here how Paul separates the Israelites of his day into two groups here. Once is "a remnant according to the election of grace" that he also calls "the election". Those are believers. He refers to the unbelieving Israelites as "the rest" who "were blinded".

So, when Paul later said "they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes" he was saying "the rest" who "were blinded", the unbelieveing Israelites, "are enemies for your sakes". And he said "as touching the election", which were the "remnant according to the election of grace" (believing Israelites), "they are beloved for the father's sakes".

So, Paul was not contrasting the entire nation of Israel with Gentiles there as you claimed, he was contrasting believeing Israelites ("the election") with unbelieving Israelites ("the rest" who "were blinded").

Great exegesis, bro.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, I know these things, and it doesn't change what I wrote. The prophets addressed this also. Do you want to know the passages? Where 2/3 will perish, while the 1/3 remnent will be saved, for instance?

The promise is that all who endure to the end of the great tribulation are rescued from destruction by Jesus when He returns, and they believe in Him, and all remaining are saved, reborn, Spirit-filled, with a new heart, and are become a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Much love!

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Which covenant do you choose?

Old or New?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I know these things, and it doesn't change what I wrote.

How does it not change what you wrote? If you agree with what I said then that contradicts what you wrote, doesn't it? Were you not indicating that you think Paul was referring to all of Israel, including both believers and unbelievers when referring to those who are "beloved for the father's sakes"? That's how it came across. Or do you agree with me that he was contrasting unbelieving Israelites as "the enemies for your sakes" with believing Israelites who were "beloved for the father's sakes"?

The prophets addressed this also. Do you want to know the passages? Where 2/3 will perish, while the 1/3 remnent will be saved, for instance?

Are you aware that the passage you're referencing (Zechariah 13:8-9) immediately follows a verse (Zech 13:7) that had its fulfillment at the first coming of Christ (see Matt 26:31)? Do you think Zechariah went from talking about things related to the first coming in Zechariah 13:7 and then immediately changed the subject to talk about things related to the second coming?

The promise is that all who endure to the end of the great tribulation are rescued from destruction by Jesus when He returns, and they believe in Him, and all remaining are saved, reborn, Spirit-filled, with a new heart, and are become a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

You believe in that Israelite believers who are saved during a future "great tribulation" will become their own "holy nation" and own "kingdom of priests" apart from Gentile believers? Where is that taught in scripture?

Also, are you saying that they don't believe in Him until He returns? If so, where is that taught in scripture? That doesn't line up with what Paul wrote here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul taught that Jesus will be "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He returns, not giving them another chance to be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 11:25-29 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I'll simply have to disagree with you.

You are talking about a distinction within Israel, that some were blinded, and some not. I'm talking about a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles, as highlighted above.

Let me remind you that you referenced verses 28 and 29 in the post that I was replying to, so that is what I was specifically talking about. Can you please specifically address what I said about the passage and tell me why you disagree with what I said?

Can you tell me exactly how you interpret Romans 11:28-29? Who do you believe are the "enemies for your sakes" and who do you believe are "the election" who are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"? Do you believe that Romans 11:5-7 can help us determine that?

 

[marks]

Were you not indicating that you think Paul was referring to all of Israel, including both believers and unbelievers when referring to those who are "beloved for the father's sakes"?

I'm saying, God makes a distinction between Ethnic Israel, if you will, and all other nations, the Gentiles. Israel, and the Nations. Jews and Gentiles. And that Paul affirms this distinction here,

Romans 11:25-29 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

There is Israel, the nation God chose from among the others, and there are the other nations. This distinction is maintained throughout, exactly as God promised through His prophets. As Jesus affirmed in His ministry.

All of Israel shall be saved, that is, the 1/3 who pass through the fire, who endure to the end, who are rescued by Jesus. Yet not all gentiles will be saved. Rather they will be gathered when Jesus returns, to be separated righteous from wicked, based on how they treated this chosen nation, Jesus' brothers.

All of Israel will be saved, but not all gentiles will be saved. And Israel is not a metaphor for a mixed group of Jews and Gentiles, rather, it is contrasted against Gentiles, demonstrating this ethnic distinction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have to wonder if you're actually reading everything I'm saying. God does NOT choose one nation over another in terms of doing more to save people in that nation than He does for people in other nations. Do you agree? If not, then you still don't know what it means for God to not be a respecter of persons.

Matthew 10:5-7 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:22-24 KJV
22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If you have argument on this point, it's not with me, I'm just quoting the Bible, and it says what it says. I make no apology for that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Romans 11:1-14 KJV
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Those of Israel who are the Remnent, of the Election
Those of Israel who are blinded.
Those of the Gentiles.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm saying, God makes a distinction between Ethnic Israel, if you will, and all other nations, the Gentiles. Israel, and the Nations. Jews and Gentiles. And that Paul affirms this distinction here,

Romans 11:25-29 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

There is Israel, the nation God chose from among the others, and there are the other nations. This distinction is maintained throughout, exactly as God promised through His prophets. As Jesus affirmed in His ministry.

All of Israel shall be saved, that is, the 1/3 who pass through the fire, who endure to the end, who are rescued by Jesus. Yet not all gentiles will be saved. Rather they will be gathered when Jesus returns, to be separated righteous from wicked, based on how they treated this chosen nation, Jesus' brothers.

All of Israel will be saved, but not all gentiles will be saved. And Israel is not a metaphor for a mixed group of Jews and Gentiles, rather, it is contrasted against Gentiles, demonstrating this ethnic distinction.

Can you please just answer my question? I asked "Were you not indicating that you think Paul was referring to all of Israel, including both believers and unbelievers when referring to those who are "beloved for the father's sakes"?". Yes or no, please. It seems that your answer is yes, but I'm not sure because you're not answering a simple, straightforward question in a simple, straightforward way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 10:5-7 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:22-24 KJV
22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If you have argument on this point, it's not with me, I'm just quoting the Bible, and it says what it says. I make no apology for that.

How in the world are you thinking that just quoting the scriptures is all you need to do and that makes your view correct? I could just quote scriptures in return and then drop the mic and declare myself the winner of the debate if I wanted, but that's not how this works.

Tell me exactly how these scriptures support your view? What these scriptures indicate is simply that it was God's plan to bring the gospel to Israel first before bringing it to the Gentiles. That does not mean He favored Israel over the Gentiles. He loves everyone the same. How could you think otherwise? That would make Him a respecter of persons, but He is not.

 

[marks]

I have to wonder if you're actually reading everything I'm saying. God does NOT choose one nation over another in terms of doing more to save people in that nation than He does for people in other nations. Do you agree? If not, then you still don't know what it means for God to not be a respecter of persons.

Ephesians 2:12 KJV
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Much love!

 

[marks]

Can you please just answer my question? I asked "Were you not indicating that you think Paul was referring to all of Israel, including both believers and unbelievers when referring to those who are "beloved for the father's sakes"?". Yes or no, please. It seems that your answer is yes, but I'm not sure because you're not answering a simple, straightforward question in a simple, straightforward way.

I don't see where the passage makes such a distinction.


Those with whom God made the covenant,

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

. . . are enemies because of you, but beloved because of the fathers.

This is not without precedent.

Romans 5:8-10 KJV
8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Where he says, all Israel will be saved, this means all who "endure to the end" of the great tribulation, are rescued by Jesus when He returns, and will believe in Him.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ephesians 2:12 KJV
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Romans 11:1-14 KJV
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Those of Israel who are the Remnent, of the Election
Those of Israel who are blinded.
Those of the Gentiles.

Yes. And? What is the point you're intending to make here besides the things we all already know about this passage, which is that Paul contrasted believing and unbelieving Israelites there and also referenced the Gentiles?

 

[marks]

Yes. And? What is the point you're intending to make here besides the things we all already know about this passage, which is that Paul contrasted believing and unbelieving Israelites there and also referenced the Gentiles?

The point I'm trying to present is that this passage means exactly what it says:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

And this one:

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

And this one:

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

And all these others I've been posting over and over. No symbols, no allegory, just, God will regather Israel to her promised land when Jesus comes. He will gather His chosen people back to their land, then gather and judge the Gentiles, exactly as He said.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!