Are christians justified by faith only?

[Raccoon1010]

and @dev553344

Here ya go....
Some see James and Paul at odds with works and faith....but they really were not.

Sometimes the translations do not help. Because of some of the translations some Protestants are confused and have a negative view of Good Deeds. The Greek word for this can be translated either works or Deeds and should be translated in context. But some times they are not translated correctly, the KJV is famous for this.

Usually when the scriptures are discussing works, they are talking about the Mosaic Law, which has nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation can only be achieved through faith in Christ. But Christianity is not like a club, sign up for it and go about your business ....if belief in Christ does not change you and your life....odds are, it did not take....LOL A follower of Christ means you take Him as a example for your life.

But what should Christians do…..just because they are Christians?
Love God and each other.
Be good and do good.
Do good for others....help those that Christ puts in your path.
On your journey in Christianity....Workout your own salvation with fear and trembling.... Philippians 2:12

Doing good for others does not save you but....store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal...Matthew 6:20. So helping others pleases the Lord.
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1st Peter 4:8

But still loving each other and helping each other does not get you to heaven....But according to the parable of the Sheep and the Goats....not helping each other can get you to hell.

And of course Christians should "hang" with Christians and assemble in church to worship the Lord.

We have another thread: Righteousness is thru our faith and our works

In that thread we were able to support that justification is a gift of God for faith and works

 

[mailmandan]

I had always thought that we are justified through faith, and the results are that we become a new creature, and want to do His will. That is sanctification.

Yes, we are justified (accounted as righteous) through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) which is not to be confused with being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[Lambano]

Yes, we are justified (accounted as righteous) through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) which is not to be confused with being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:14-24)

So, does that come down to striving to make the "accounting" of "righteous" the actuality in our lives, then?

 

[mailmandan]

So, does that come down to striving to make the "forensic" judgement of "righteous" the actuality then?

Are you saying that works bear out the justification that already came through faith?

 

[Lambano]

Are you saying that works bear out the justification that already came through faith?

That sound like justifying the justification. I'm thinking more like converging the reality with the accounting.

 

[mailmandan]

That sound like justifying the justification. I'm thinking more like converging the reality with the accounting.

Here is how I see it. Man is justified/saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

 

[Lambano]

Here is how I see it. Man is justified/saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Okay; and that's consistent with classical Protestantism.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” ("Epistle of Straw" 2:18)

(Marty never did like Jimmy.)

Where it runs into problems on the practical level is that sooner or later, the question comes up, "Well, do I have enough works to show that I have faith?" And you get a bunch of neurotic Christians.

Me, I figure, never denigrate good works; the world is crying out for a few of them.

 

[Jim B]

You don't sound like you know the scriptures. We are justified by God in various ways, for instance: Faith, Works, accepting you're a sinner and in need of mercy.

You wrote: "Should I believe you or Paul?"

So you think I wrote the bible then? Interesting as the bible spells out justification for the tax collector. This was written as the words of Christ.

You should have wrote: "Should I believe Jesus or Paul".

And then you would have been wrong anyways. As both were correct. Keep reading your bible and quit ignoring passages. But instead make harmony with all of it.

I know the scriptures extremely well. If you're familiar with Romans, then you know that it clearly says that we are justified by faith.

"For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law." Romans 3:28

"Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1

Keep reading your bible and quit ignoring passages. But instead make harmony with all of it.

 

[Davy]

The premise of the original post is bogus, even with all those Bible quotes misused to try and fool you.

Those in Christ Jesus are saved by FAITH on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, God's Promised Savior, and NOT by any works that we have done, or may do. And that is a teaching by Apostle Paul.

Apostle Paul speaking...

Rom 3:20-28
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV

 

[Davy]

So what about all those Bible Scriptures that APPEAR to be speaking that 'works' in Christ are what saves?

It's just that, NONE of those Scriptures say we are SAVED by our works.

What's the difference then?

By our Faith, we should have works in Christ to show. And that is a simple matter, because like Jesus said, wherever your treasure is, that is where your heart will be, meaning that's the kind of works you will do.

Thus our FAITH and works go hand in hand, BUT... our 'works' is NOT what actually saves us. Only our FAITH on Jesus Christ is what saves us.

 

[mailmandan]

Okay; and that's consistent with classical Protestantism.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” ("Epistle of Straw" 2:18)

(Marty never did like Jimmy.)

Where it runs into problems on the practical level is that sooner or later, the question comes up, "Well, do I have enough works to show that I have faith?" And you get a bunch of neurotic Christians.

Me, I figure, never denigrate good works; the world is crying out for a few of them.

It's not about do I have "enough" works. All genuine Christians are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) We need to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Raccoon1010]

It's not about do I have "enough" works. All genuine Christians are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) We need to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Yes works may not be required, but are encouraged:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

 

[Lambano]

Nobody wants to admit that there's a real tension here between Paul and James:

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of Torah. (Romans 3:28)

16 Nevertheless, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of Torah but through faith in Christ Jesus (or "by Christ Jesus's faithfulness), even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ (or by Christ's faithfulness) and not by the works of Torah; since by the works of Torah no flesh will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

A couple of the "New Perspective on Paul" theologians (Ed Sanders, J.D.G. Dunn, N.T. Wright, Richard Hays, et. al.) try to resolve this tension by noting that Paul specifically mentions in his letters those "works of Torah" that serve as boundary markers to demarcate Jew from Gentile: Circumcision, the Kosher laws, Shabbat observance, and the Jewish calendar. Paul certainly encourages his house churches to "do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith". (Galatians 6:10)

Me, I can't resolve that tension, and I don't have to. I'll let Jesus do the savin' around here (said in a Quickdraw McGraw voice). He's really good at it, you know. My job is to:

“Do all the good you can,
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.”
― John Wesley

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Nobody wants to admit that there's a real tension here between Paul and James:

No need, as God Gave no 'tension' to them, but Did Give them TWO Different Programs:

op: justified by faith only?
Nope, "By 'Grace Through faith'..." ( see Ephesians 2:8-9 "Justified" = Saved? )

Now, verse 10 ( and notice ONE particular word ):

"For we are His Workmanship, Created In Christ Jesus Unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Now notice:

Rom 14:12 "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."​

​

My 'own self' Correct?

The Bema Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For The Body Of CHRIST, Surely
Shows Not all "walked in good works/ran The GRACE race, and presented
their bodies Daily, a living sacrifice Unto The LORD JESUS CHRIST!"
(1 Corinthians 3:6-15), Correct?

Thus, imho, the following is not applicable to preaching the Gospel Of Grace:

Judging ( salvation, sabbath-keeping, eating, etc. ) others (Rom 14:10) who
are displaying ↑ "no fruit" and saying "they have no 'root'.

Q: how do these critics then judge an atheist ( who Denies God ) and "shows" all kinds of
love of his neighbor? Is he "saved, having so-called 'root'" we can 'see'?
Problematic, don't you think? Because:

Me, I can't resolve that tension, and I don't have to. I'll let Jesus do the savin' around here

Correct1:

ONLY God Knows the heart of Every man! (Acts 15:8; Romans 8:27)​

+
Correct2, Just a simple Right Division Of God's Two Different Programs
is the only solution to all of this Confusion ( tension ) - ie:

Grace, According To "The Revelation Of The Mystery
This is under Paul's doctrine (Romans - Philemon), for The Body Of Christ!

"...we walk by faith, not by sight..." (2 Corinthians 5:7)​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

prophecy/covenants-law for Israel, "James' statement" Plain and Clear:

"James to The Twelve tribes Of Israel" (James 1:1), Correct?

Where, they Are commanded to "show their faith By their works" (James 2:17,26)
Israel

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

The Body of Christ - Finally:

In God's Other Context, the individual 'members' Are Exhorted:

2Co_13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; ​

prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how ​

that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" ​

Judging our OWN self! Not others, Correct?

-----------------------------

Conclusion: Mixing Up God's Two Different Programs causes Much Confusion, and then:

Disobedience of "...Not by sight..." leads to ( bad works ) judgment of our own brethren,
In Christ, Correct?

Amen.

 

[Davy]

Yes works may not be required, but are encouraged:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

One needs to be careful with that, especially with that Rom.4:5 "But to him who does not work..." statement. Paul is merely pointing out that it is our Faith that saves us and is counted for righteousness. It doesn't mean we don't have to have 'works' in Christ. In Matthew 25 is the matter of the 'unprofitable servant' who did nothing with the 1 talent he was given.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
KJV

I really hope I don't have to bear many stripes by Lord Jesus when He comes, because I know there's been times when I knew better but didn't act for righteousness sake.

 

[Raccoon1010]

One needs to be careful with that, especially with that Rom.4:5 "But to him who does not work..." statement. Paul is merely pointing out that it is our Faith that saves us and is counted for righteousness. It doesn't mean we don't have to have 'works' in Christ. In Matthew 25 is the matter of the 'unprofitable servant' who did nothing with the 1 talent he was given.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
KJV

I really hope I don't have to bear many stripes by Lord Jesus when He comes, because I know there's been times when I knew better but didn't act for righteousness sake.

Yes I would agree except for people that can't perform works. Myself, I don't preach the Gospel, because I am schizophrenic and found from attempting it that all I do is damage things worse. But yeah normal people probably are required to do good works more than disabled people.

 

[charity]

'But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1Cor 1:30-31)

:)

 

[2 Peter 1:10-11]

For we reckon that a man is justified by faith apart from works of Torah. - Romans 3:28

I've got a two-inch thick theology book on my bookshelf titled Justification. Theologians have kept themselves busy since the time of Luther exploring what Paul meant by that.

δικαιόω - verb, to justify.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Theologians are not christians, sir. I do not speak greek and therefore do not regard that language. God's word has been preserved for us who speak english in the Authorized (King James) Version of the Holy Bible. The reason why theologians are ministers of satan is because the word of the LORD is unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Woe unto them!

 

[2 Peter 1:10-11]

The premise of the original post is bogus, even with all those Bible quotes misused to try and fool you.

Those in Christ Jesus are saved by FAITH on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, God's Promised Savior, and NOT by any works that we have done, or may do. And that is a teaching by Apostle Paul.

Apostle Paul speaking...

Rom 3:20-28
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV

As it is written concerning you children of the devil who pervert my Father's Word:

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Fill thou up then the measure of thy fathers, o fool and blind. For how shalt thou escape the damnation of hell? Know of a truth that it slumbers not.

 

[Jim B]

Theologians are not christians, sir. I do not speak greek and therefore do not regard that language. God's word has been preserved for us who speak english in the Authorized (King James) Version of the Holy Bible. The reason why theologians are ministers of satan is because the word of the LORD is unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Woe unto them!

I have read a lot of absurd posts on this forum, but this ranks near the top.

Do you even know who or what a theologian is? Professors in a university's religious studies department are usually theologians, and religious leaders are usually considered to be theologians. There are many, many Christian theologians and they are most definitely not "ministers of satan". How do you even come up with something like that???

The LORD is NOT "unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". How can you misinterpret Scripture like that???

"Theology comes from combining two Greek words: theos, meaning God, and logos, meaning word or rational thought. So theology is God-thought or rational reasoning about God. It is the human effort to understand the God of the scriptures."

God's word has been preserved for those of us who speak English in the Authorized (King James) Version of the Holy Bible and many other translations. Modern translations are based on more and better source manuscripts than the KJV. BTW, why does thou not writest in 17th century Englyshe, since you think that is God's language)?

If I were you (and I am very glad that I am not, I would get on my knees and ask God for forgiveness for your slander.