The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[CadyandZoe]

A fraction of individuals were attacked, and hundreds of millions of individuals were not attacked.

Again, the US was attacked. The hijackers didn't have a personal grudge against the people in the twin towers. Their intent was to behead the White House, the Pentagon, and a center of finance.

 

[covenantee]

Regardless, God's covenant was with a nation, a people, not individuals.

His covenant was and is with faithful obedient individuals.

No others.

 

[covenantee]

Again, the US was attacked. The hijackers didn't have a personal grudge against the people in the twin towers. Their intent was to behead the White House, the Pentagon, and a center of finance.

Their intent was to kill as many individual Americans as possible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I asked you: Are there two spiritual houses of God that have Jesus Christ as the cornerstone? What is your answer to that question?

Your question is meant as a "gotcha" question and as a result you have obfuscated the subject of the conversation. Stick to the issue at hand.

I need to put up the verse because you have taken us so far off the track that you forgot the issue. We are discussing 1Peter 2:9.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light . . .​

You have misconstrued Peter's meaning here. He is NOT talking about the church. He is talking about his kinsmen, whom the Lord himself described as the chosen race etc.

His readers are Hebrew and among the Hebrews, some of them have decided to believe in Jesus Christ. As Peter says, they have been called out of the darkness into the light. This is true for all true believers but it doesn't follow, therefore that all true believers are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, etc. That would be an erroneous conclusion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He was talking about the elect in the diaspora. He says it himself.

Christian Jews and Gentiles.

The diaspora is NOT a place or a location.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter quotes from Exodus according to it's context. He's not changing it's meaning.

He's showing the real meaning. If you read about God's promises to Abraham and his seed in the OT and didn't have the NT to refer to, do you think you would conclude that the promises applied to Jesus and those who belong to Him, as Paul said in Galatians 3:16-29? I doubt it. So, did Paul change the meaning or give the true meaning of those promises?

Consider to whom his letter is addressed.

1 Peter 1:1 YLT
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

I assume you think it was addressed only to Jews? But, where is that indicated? It's not indicated specifically.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say he was specifically writing only to Jewish Christians there.

He calls them a "spiritual house" which has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5-7). Is that not the church (see Eph 2:19-22)? Is there any other "spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone besides the church? I don't believe so.

So, even if he was only referring to Jewish believers there, he was not addressing them in terms of their status of being physical descendants of Israel, but rather in terms of their spiritual status in the church. So, him calling them a "holy nation" must have a spiritual or heavenly connotation, not an earthly one, since that fits the context of what he was saying, overall.

So, to summarize, my main point is that he was addressing them it terms of being part of the church and not in terms of what earthly nation they descended from.

But, coming back to who Peter was addressing there, consider this.

1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

Is this something he would have said to those who were formerly religious Jews who became Christians? I don't believe so. Their problem before was being too religious and not having a personal relationship with God. Their problem wasn't really "living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry". That's more typical of how Gentiles had lived before becoming Christians. They were not religious and had no morals at all (Paul said they were formerly "without God in the world" - Eph 2:12), whereas the religious Jews at least had morals even if they were off base in thinking they could save themselves by obeying the law rather than by grace through faith.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Their intent was to kill as many individual Americans as possible.

Regardless, they attacked the US.

Let me ask you this. Do you understand the concept of a "team?" When the papers report the final score and declare the winner, do they list every individual's name? No. Why? Because each team is considered as a unit. The New York papers might write, "The Yankees beat the Red Socks today."

Admit it, your concept is unworkable in the real world.

 

[covenantee]

The diaspora is NOT a place or a location.

The Christians of the diaspora were located in the regions identified in 1 Peter 1:1.

 

[covenantee]

Regardless, they attacked the US.

Let me ask you this. Do you understand the concept of a "team?" When the papers report the final score and declare the winner, do they list every individual's name? No. Why? Because each team is considered as a unit. The New York papers might write, "The Yankees beat the Red Socks today."

Admit it, your concept is unworkable in the real world.

Each team is comprised of individuals.

No individuals = No team.

When the team is up to bat, does the entire team hold the bat, or does just one individual batter hold the bat?

When the team is out in field, does the entire team pitch the ball, or does just one individual pitcher pitch the ball?

Admit it; God dealt and deals with individuals.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He dealt individually with individuals.

That's not a unit.

He wasn't judging faithful obedient individuals.

He was judging unfaithful disobedient individuals.

All individually.

Not individually. Even the fraction was punished together as a unit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your question is meant as a "gotcha" question and as a result you have obfuscated the subject of the conversation. Stick to the issue at hand.

No, it is not. You are trying to get around the weakness in your view by dismissing my valid arguments. Like you, I am using other scripture to help understand the verse in question, which is 1 Peter 2:9. But, unlike you, I am using the surrounding verses to help establish the context of that verse.

I need to put up the verse because you have taken us so far off the track that you forgot the issue.

No, I have not! Looking at the verses preceding the verse we're talking about is going "so far off the track"? Are you kidding me?

We are discussing 1Peter 2:9.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light . . .​

You have misconstrued Peter's meaning here. He is NOT talking about the church. He is talking about his kinsmen, whom the Lord himself described as the chosen race etc.

No, he is not and I have been showing why not. And you are just trying to dismiss that. If you simply read the verses preceding that you can see he also called them a "spiritual house" that has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. Do you deny that? If not, then why can't we use that information to determine what he is saying in 1 Peter 2:9?

His readers are Hebrew and among the Hebrews, some of them have decided to believe in Jesus Christ. As Peter says, they have been called out of the darkness into the light. This is true for all true believers but it doesn't follow, therefore that all true believers are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, etc. That would be an erroneous conclusion.

The same ones he called a "spiritual house" with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone are the "royal priesthood". What other spiritual house with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone is there besides the church? You can't just dismiss what I'm saying. I'm making valid points and asking valid questions here. Your attempt to dismiss that shows your unwillingness to honestly address challenges being made to your view. What other reason could there be for that than you wanting to just believe what you want to believe rather than accepting what Peter was saying in context?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is the NT Church, and no one else, who is the NT Chosen Holy Nation. It is the NT Church, and no one else, who is identified as the NT elect.

What the Jews spoke of is irrelevant.

Exactly. And, as I have shown, Peter also referred to that "holy nation" as "a spiritual house" with Jesus as its cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5-7). That is an obvious reference to the church. It's very similar to how Paul described the church in Ephesians 2:19-22.

 

[covenantee]

You have misconstrued Peter's meaning here. He is NOT talking about the church. He is talking about his kinsmen, whom the Lord himself described as the chosen race etc.

God is not a racist.

He will not be contorted into one.

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The grammatical referent of "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9 is "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5, and "ye" in 1 Peter 2:5 is unequivocally the Church.

 

[marks]

They have already been kept. 2 Corinthians 3:5,6

Could you quote the passage and indicate the words that you think show the fulfillment?

I can never understand why so many people don't like doing that!

But then again, I'm not expecting that passage will show the fulfillment.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe that God has already kept His promises, because they are fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

But not by returning all of Israel back to their land, is that right?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Not individually. Even the fraction was punished together as a unit.

Every fraction was comprised of individuals.

 

[marks]

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

So what you've done here is to show that God has sneaky ways of not keeping His word. That He'll tell you something, but later take it back, in essence, by saying, you never did understand what I meant.

"You, Israel, thought you had a promise of return but no!"

My God keeps His Word.

These passages all have harmony, but without negating any of them. We're told specifically about all these things.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not all that were born of Abraham are counted for the seed. Well, you can read Romans 9, how God qualifies whom are the children of Abraham. Those who are faithful. Not his unfaithful progeny. Only those through Isaac. Only those through Jacob. Only those faithful.

Are you remembering Abraham was promised to be the father of "many nations"? Who would those nations be? Why plural nations?

These are some of the details I pay attention to.

So, who do you believe are the children of Abraham exactly then? Do you agree it is all who are faithful regardless of nationality?

 

[marks]

2 Corinthians 3:5,6

2 Corinthians 3:5-6 KJV
5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

And even in the Law it said, the one who keeps it will live by it. That is, you are all dead men, because no one keeps it. That's what made it a ministry of death, and it remains a ministry of death unto this day.

But that doesn't make liars out of God's prophets. Not in the slightest! We should believe their word.

The OT foretold the change of priesthood. Why do some think that the OT is somehow at odds with the NT? I don't get that! They harmonize, and we can believe both in what they say.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Could you quote the passage and indicate the words that you think show the fulfillment?

I can never understand why so many people don't like doing that!

But then again, I'm not expecting that passage will show the fulfillment.

Much love!

2 Corinthians 3
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Paul was writing to the Corinthian church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, in the present tense.

He declared "us", i.e. himself and them, to be ministers of the new testament, in the present tense, already at that time.

That's fulfillment.