Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind?? 1 Thess. 4: 14-18 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left """will be caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

OUT OF SEQUENCE dogma of the events of the End Times plagues our congregations. One of these is the dogma of the rapture.

There are at least 16 different variations of the timing of the Second Coming described as the rapture. Most of them are linked in one way or the other to either the millennium or the tribulation or both - or neither. Take your pick. I'm sure you will. Some sources suggest there are a lot more interpretations than sixteen. I will present here only two, both from scripture rather than quotes from YouTube talking heads (which seem to take preeminence these days over the written Word).

The first is the section quoted above from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.
The second section can be found in Luke 17:34-37. I'm quoting this one below:

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

The key to both verses is to read where sinners, rather than saints, end their earthly career.

In Luke 17:37, Jesus is asked who takes the sinners and where they'll end up. Jesus says, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” In other words, we see in Luke's gospel that it is the SINNERS who are extracted from the world. They are removed by a fleet of demons and dumped with the dead (the meaning taken here is 'spiritually dead' or unsaved).

In the first verse quoted from 1 Thessalonians we read "'after that'.....we who are still alive....will be caught up". In other words, the saints take the 2nd train out of town....or 2nd flight as it were.

The two quotes of scripture aren't in disagreement at all unless one tries to jimmy them into a false assertion - a false interpretation that's OUT OF SEQUENCE.

Is there only one rapture as many suggest or are there two evacuations from planet earth?

The two quotes of scripture above seem to indicate there is a concentrated effort by God to remove sinners first. Sinners are taken to a place of the dead. That place isn't described except insofar as what sort of people will end up there. The dead end up there. Saints are rescued at a later time. How much later?

That's a subject for another post, but again I must caution the reader that there are additional changes to the sequence when one considers the aftermath of the first removal (of sinners).

Would to God the sinners would all be taken out right now - to give the saints a short respite to enjoy earth devoid of wickedness and cruelty. Maybe time to take a picnic without worrying about being shot or robbed during the meal.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

God is not going to burn the Bride of Christ with "cleansing" fire.. as the Bride of Christ has already been "made righteous"....= cleansed by the BLOOD OF JESUS.


God is saving the FIRE for the "Great Trib"... and the LAKE of fire......and the BRIDE Of CHRIST, wont be there.

The 'fire' is an element of the Final Judgment, not an event that precedes it.

The Tribulation has already happened, so any association of the lake of fire with it is grossly misunderstood - out of sequence.

Briefly stated the prophet Jeremiah foretold of the "time of Jacob's trouble" in 30:7. This is a reference to JEWS, for no gentile tribe or nation is ever referred to in scripture or associated with the house of Jacob. That house is strictly a Jewish one. Therefore the first mention of a terrible time in human history will be one primarily suffered by Jews.

By circuitous methods the prophet Daniel predicted the time of Jacob's trouble would last seven years. Limited space doesn't allow me to go into the detailed explanations of Daniel, but he did predict a seven year period. Some interpretations break the seven years into smaller bits and lengths, but these attempts only confuse the reader. Most of these explanations have an agenda, an agenda that doesn't include appropriate scriptural exegesis. They 'read into' scripture rather than learn 'from it'. This reverse procedure is called eisegesis. Look it up.

Matthew 24:21 quotes Jesus saying, "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." In other words, the Lord is telling us it will only happen ONCE.

From 1938 to 1945 the Holocaust swept over Europe. In its wake six million Jews lay dead. Millions more were dispossessed of their homes, businesses and property. Thousands more perished in the wake of the greatest war the world had ever seen. Conservative estimates suggest that sixty million people died in the global conflict known in history books as World War II.

60,000,000

Dying didn't end when the guns fell silent either. Massive civil wars erupted all over the planet and additional conservative estimates suggest an additional twenty-five million people died from those disruptions.

The original interpretation of scripture, which was accomplished by Roman Catholic Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera and published in 1595 is the basis for modern eschatology. The RCC doctrine was refurbished in the mid-19th century by John Nelson Darby, a consort of witches, who sold it to the American protestant churches. To this day the Vatican version is held close to the chest by American evangelicals despite the proof of history otherwise.

God didn't save the Lake of Fire for the Great Tribulation. The time of Jacob's Trouble is past and the ultimate disposition of those who've rebelled against the authority of Almighty God still awaits. Perhaps some of them might be saved if church folks hadn't betrayed the gospel with RCC rubbish.

There is yet a little time....very little indeed....until Jesus returns.

Warn somebody. Do it quickly. It is time to repent, to get right with God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[The Light]

OUT OF SEQUENCE dogma of the events of the End Times plagues our congregations. One of these is the dogma of the rapture.

The first is the section quoted above from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.
The second section can be found in Luke 17:34-37. I'm quoting this one below:

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

The key to both verses is to read where sinners, rather than saints, end their earthly career.

In Luke 17:37, Jesus is asked who takes the sinners and where they'll end up. Jesus says, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” In other words, we see in Luke's gospel that it is the SINNERS who are extracted from the world. They are removed by a fleet of demons and dumped with the dead (the meaning taken here is 'spiritually dead' or unsaved).

No. It is the righteous that are taken. The righteous are caught up. The unrighteous remain. Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together is talking about where Jesus is the saints will be. When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

In the first verse quoted from 1 Thessalonians we read "'after that'.....we who are still alive....will be caught up". In other words, the saints take the 2nd train out of town....or 2nd flight as it were.

No. The dead in Christ take the 1st train. The alive Church that remain take the second train. This is the grain harvest, the barley and wheat.

The two quotes of scripture aren't in disagreement at all unless one tries to jimmy them into a false assertion - a false interpretation that's OUT OF SEQUENCE.

The sequence has nothing to do with the unrighteous as they remain on the earth.

Is there only one rapture as many suggest or are there two evacuations from planet earth?

There is the dead in Christ rising first.
There are the alive believers caught up next.
There are the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes across the earth.
There is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal
There are the 2 witnesses that are raised from the dead and caught up.

Only those in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protectyion and unbelievers are one earth for the 7th seal wrath of God.

The two quotes of scripture above seem to indicate there is a concentrated effort by God to remove sinners first. Sinners are taken to a place of the dead. That place isn't described except insofar as what sort of people will end up there. The dead end up there. Saints are rescued at a later time. How much later?

Here is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. Note that the righteous are remove first and the unrighteous remain and are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

That's a subject for another post, but again I must caution the reader that there are additional changes to the sequence when one considers the aftermath of the first removal (of sinners).

Righteous are removed. Unrighteous remain.

Would to God the sinners would all be taken out right now - to give the saints a short respite to enjoy earth devoid of wickedness and cruelty. Maybe time to take a picnic without worrying about being shot or robbed during the meal.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

that's me speaking quietly and carrying a big sword.

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

No. It is the righteous that are taken. The righteous are caught up. The unrighteous remain. Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together is talking about where Jesus is the saints will be. When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.


No. The dead in Christ take the 1st train. The alive Church that remain take the second train. This is the grain harvest, the barley and wheat.


The sequence has nothing to do with the unrighteous as they remain on the earth.


There is the dead in Christ rising first.
There are the alive believers caught up next.
There are the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes across the earth.
There is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal
There are the 2 witnesses that are raised from the dead and caught up.

Only those in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protectyion and unbelievers are one earth for the 7th seal wrath of God.


Here is the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. Note that the righteous are remove first and the unrighteous remain and are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Righteous are removed. Unrighteous remain.

that's me speaking quietly and carrying a big sword.

You are really off the rails.

None of this is complicated.

Typical responses to ANYTHING about the rapture is to pervert the meaning of scripture.

When Luke 17:37 describes carcasses he isn't talking about saints, about those who are alive in Christ. He's talking about the dead - in whatever form or condition DEATH describes. He's also talking about taking them to a place where dead are gathered.

You are presenting your own irrelevant dogma and false interpretation when you assume, without the slightest justification, that the description for removal of the dead means something other than what scripture says it does.

I pity you. There are none so blind as those who cannot or will not see.

READ THE BIBLE. Leave your presuppositions in the garbage where they belong.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[The Light]

You are really off the rails.

None of this is complicated.

I agee. Just read what it says.

Typical responses to ANYTHING about the rapture is to pervert the meaning of scripture.

How is it that I was able to produce the scripture in Revelation 14 that prove the righteous are harvested first and the unrighteous remain on earth and are cast into the wrath of God?

You were unable to address that FACT.

When Luke 17:37 describes carcasses he isn't talking about saints, about those who are alive in Christ. He's talking about the dead - in whatever form or condition DEATH describes. He's also talking about taking them to a place where dead are gathered.

No. He is talking about where the body is the eagles are gathered. He comes first for the dead in Christ.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

You are presenting your own irrelevant dogma and false interpretation when you assume, without the slightest justification, that the description for removal of the dead means something other than what scripture says it does.

I presented the Word of God that shows that the UNRIGHTEOUS remain on earth and go through the wrath of God. Where are the righteous? They are in heaven, before the throne of God.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

I pity you. There are none so blind as those who cannot or will not see.

I was thinking the same. All this hollering from the choir loft and you don't even understand the basic character of God. Does Noah remain or do the unrighteous remain to face destruction? Does Lot remain or does Lot leave and the unrighteous remain to face destruction? This is just basic stuff and you seem to miss it.

READ THE BIBLE. Leave your presuppositions in the garbage where they belong.

And why are you unable to address the scriptural FACTS that are presented?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You might want to keep away from that front rail.

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

I agee. Just read what it says.


How is it that I was able to produce the scripture in Revelation 14 that prove the righteous are harvested first and the unrighteous remain on earth and are cast into the wrath of God?

You were unable to address that FACT.


No. He is talking about where the body is the eagles are gathered. He comes first for the dead in Christ.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When He returns for the alive that remain He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.




I presented the Word of God that shows that the UNRIGHTEOUS remain on earth and go through the wrath of God. Where are the righteous? They are in heaven, before the throne of God.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

I was thinking the same. All this hollering from the choir loft and you don't even understand the basic character of God. Does Noah remain or do the unrighteous remain to face destruction? Does Lot remain or does Lot leave and the unrighteous remain to face destruction? This is just basic stuff and you seem to miss it.

And why are you unable to address the scriptural FACTS that are presented?


You might want to keep away from that front rail.

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37)

Despite your insistence that you alone are able to interpret scripture, the word of God remains.

Carcass is descriptive of dead bodies. The word vultures quoted here refers to a carrion eating bird. Eating habits of eagles are the same, btw. Look it up.

Can you not READ? To justify your interpretation you have to LIE about what is written here. Vultures, or the spiritual equivalent one would suppose are demons, are the entities used to carry away the dead.

In order to justify your interpretation you have to misrepresent what the actual meaning of the words is supposed to be.

That is the devil's work and you've done it well. Keep on lying about it. You may even convince a few others of your deluded ideas.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[The Light]

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37)

Despite your insistence that you alone are able to interpret scripture, the word of God remains.

There is nothing to interpret. Just read what it says. Where the body is the eagles will gather or in the translation you are using, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

That simply means where He is, those He comes for, will gather.

Carcass is descriptive of dead bodies. The word vultures quoted here refers to a carrion eating bird. Eating habits of eagles are the same, btw. Look it up.

Can you not READ? To justify your interpretation you have to LIE about what is written here. Vultures, or the spiritual equivalent one would suppose are demons, are the entities used to carry away the dead.

In order to justify your interpretation you have to misrepresent what the actual meaning of the words is supposed to be.

That is the devil's work and you've done it well. Keep on lying about it. You may even convince a few others of your deluded ideas.

It seems you are able to read, without understanding. Maybe the Word of God can explain what you seem unable to understand. These verses are saying if anyone tells you Christ is here, believe it not. For the coming of the Son of man will be like lightning from the east to the west. Where ever He is, is where the gathering is.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This should clear it up for you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That's me wondering if you understand now.

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

There is nothing to interpret. Just read what it says. Where the body is the eagles will gather or in the translation you are using, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

That simply means where He is, those He comes for, will gather.


It seems you are able to read, without understanding. Maybe the Word of God can explain what you seem unable to understand. These verses are saying if anyone tells you Christ is here, believe it not. For the coming of the Son of man will be like lightning from the east to the west. Where ever He is, is where the gathering is.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This should clear it up for you.


That's me wondering if you understand now.

Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

You wrote, 'That simply means where He is, those He comes for, will gather.'

You confused the discussion with a lot of superfluous quotations that have nothing to do with the verse at hand. The verse in question simply says the dead are gathered somewhere, but NOT that Jesus will be doing the gathering or 'coming for' as you have implied.

You have added words that aren't in the passage at all. This is called eisegesis and is a habit of those who deliberately misinterpret scripture so as to promote false doctrine. Is that your intent or are you just confused?

If the scripture says the DEAD ARE GATHERED what does that say to you? Can you response with a specific answer to a particular question or do you find it necessary to continually obfuscate?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[The Light]

Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

You wrote, 'That simply means where He is, those He comes for, will gather.'

You confused the discussion with a lot of superfluous quotations that have nothing to do with the verse at hand. The verse in question simply says the dead are gathered somewhere, but NOT that Jesus will be doing the gathering or 'coming for' as you have implied.

You have added words that aren't in the passage at all. This is called eisegesis and is a habit of those who deliberately misinterpret scripture so as to promote false doctrine. Is that your intent or are you just confused?

Here. READ THIS AGAIN. It's self explanatory.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I'm wondering at this point what level of education you have completed. I'm wondering because you don't seem to be able to understand simple sentence construction.

Only college educated. Did not see the need to go further. How about you?

If the scripture says the DEAD ARE GATHERED what does that say to you? Can you response with a specific answer to a particular question or do you find it necessary to continually obfuscate?

I think the Word makes things clear enough.

First I showed you in the Word in Revelation 14 that it is the righteous that are gathered first when the Lord comes for a rapture, thus proving you wrong.

Secondly, with the Word I showed you with the examples of Noah and Lot that it is the righteous that leave and the unrighteous that remain.

Thirdly I showed you in the Word that the coming of Jesus is like lightning from east to the west. We clearly see that when He comes in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 that there is a rapture. This, in case you don't understand, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The righteous go to heaven with Jesus. See the great multitude in Revelation 7. See that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

I do admit, I am unable to perceive how you are unable to comprehend these scriptures.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That's me pulling off my sock.

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

Here. READ THIS AGAIN. It's self explanatory.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Only college educated. Did not see the need to go further. How about you?

I think the Word makes things clear enough.

First I showed you in the Word in Revelation 14 that it is the righteous that are gathered first when the Lord comes for a rapture, thus proving you wrong.

Secondly, with the Word I showed you with the examples of Noah and Lot that it is the righteous that leave and the unrighteous that remain.

Thirdly I showed you in the Word that the coming of Jesus is like lightning from east to the west. We clearly see that when He comes in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 that there is a rapture. This, in case you don't understand, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The righteous go to heaven with Jesus. See the great multitude in Revelation 7. See that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God.

I do admit, I am unable to perceive how you are unable to comprehend these scriptures.


That's me pulling off my sock.

What do your socks have to do with anything? You are one confused boy.

Comprehension of the scripture you've quoted is NOT the issue here. Your references deliberately obfuscate the discussion. How many times do I have to say it? You write like a stubborn Jew.

I ought to know. ;)

My education includes three degrees the highest of which is the Master's Degree in Theology I earned in seminary. Typical of church types is the hubris that infects their ideology. My M.A. isn't worth a cup of coffee at Starbuck's to them. Neither is the pretentious ideology they serve.

I am addressing ONLY ONE scripture verse and you can't even get that right. How can the church build an entire doctrine out of such a lack of appreciation? The answer is that it can't. This is why God has abandoned the church - because it has turned its back upon Him and betrayed the gospel. (Rev. 18:4)

The whole world now laughs at the ignorance church types have for their own religion as well as the witness of their betrayal of their own god. Only church types, who bury their heads in the sands of ignorance, do not know the depth to which they have fallen. Not even their leaders understand what is happening to them - why the church is shriveling in size and why it no longer enjoys the respect of anyone in society. Every poll worthy of its name proves it, yet they continue to lie to each other about the future of their franchise.

Something not of this earth removes the dead and deposits the refuse in a place reserved for the dead. One normally assumes this means the grave, but church types invent something else that isn't there. Yes they even refuse to believe the evidence of scripture itself and substitute their own fiction for it. The scripture says CARCASS. Deliberate refusal of the meaning of the word doesn't erase what God intended. When it says VULTURES do the removal - it means exactly that. The work vultures do on dead bodies is underlined and studied - except by those who deny the evidence of their own eyes. The VULTURES remove the dead from the earth. If we move beyond earthly creatures then the only interpretation is that something other than birds do the job. What is it?

No doubt your next move is to accuse me of not being justified by the blood of God who died upon the cross. That's not your call, by the way.

I'd be willing to bet real money you don't even know why God died on the tree. Today's common reaction is to vomit buzz words and religious slogans to justify real ignorance, sweet ignorance. The church will continue to eat its own vomitus for the limited span of years left to it - never knowing or understanding the glorious truth God has revealed - never truly able to persuade a world that's paying no attention to the church's irrelevance and self-importance.

All of this is offered for your edification, not as personal criticism. I submit in the hope you will lower your attitude and learn. You can do it if you abandon the rubbish the church has piled upon your back. You can do it if you read the gospel - as if for the 1st time.

Socks or no socks. (I live in Florida where no socks - even in winter - are the style.......just like Jesus, btw)

All I'm trying to do here is to examine ONE VERSE, not argue over an entire collection of scripture selected to subvert its meaning. But if that's the way you want to play it - I can play too.

socks notwithstanding

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[David in NJ]

What do your socks have to do with anything? You are one confused boy.

Comprehension of the scripture you've quoted is NOT the issue here. Your references deliberately obfuscate the discussion. How many times do I have to say it? You write like a stubborn Jew.

I ought to know. ;)

My education includes three degrees the highest of which is the Master's Degree in Theology I earned in seminary. Typical of church types is the hubris that infects their ideology. My M.A. isn't worth a cup of coffee at Starbuck's to them. Neither is the pretentious ideology they serve.

I am addressing ONLY ONE scripture verse and you can't even get that right. How can the church build an entire doctrine out of such a lack of appreciation? The answer is that it can't. This is why God has abandoned the church - because it has turned its back upon Him and betrayed the gospel. (Rev. 18:4)

The whole world now laughs at the ignorance church types have for their own religion as well as the witness of their betrayal of their own god. Only church types, who bury their heads in the sands of ignorance, do not know the depth to which they have fallen. Not even their leaders understand what is happening to them - why the church is shriveling in size and why it no longer enjoys the respect of anyone in society. Every poll worthy of its name proves it, yet they continue to lie to each other about the future of their franchise.

Something not of this earth removes the dead and deposits the refuse in a place reserved for the dead. One normally assumes this means the grave, but church types invent something else that isn't there. Yes they even refuse to believe the evidence of scripture itself and substitute their own fiction for it. The scripture says CARCASS. Deliberate refusal of the meaning of the word doesn't erase what God intended. When it says VULTURES do the removal - it means exactly that. The work vultures do on dead bodies is underlined and studied - except by those who deny the evidence of their own eyes. The VULTURES remove the dead from the earth. If we move beyond earthly creatures then the only interpretation is that something other than birds do the job. What is it?

No doubt your next move is to accuse me of not being justified by the blood of God who died upon the cross. That's not your call, by the way.

I'd be willing to bet real money you don't even know why God died on the tree. Today's common reaction is to vomit buzz words and religious slogans to justify real ignorance, sweet ignorance. The church will continue to eat its own vomitus for the limited span of years left to it - never knowing or understanding the glorious truth God has revealed - never truly able to persuade a world that's paying no attention to the church's irrelevance and self-importance.

All of this is offered for your edification, not as personal criticism. I submit in the hope you will lower your attitude and learn. You can do it if you abandon the rubbish the church has piled upon your back. You can do it if you read the gospel - as if for the 1st time.

Socks or no socks. (I live in Florida where no socks - even in winter - are the style.......just like Jesus, btw)

All I'm trying to do here is to examine ONE VERSE, not argue over an entire collection of scripture selected to subvert its meaning. But if that's the way you want to play it - I can play too.

socks notwithstanding

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

lol

Very True!

 

[Timtofly]

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37)

Despite your insistence that you alone are able to interpret scripture, the word of God remains.

Carcass is descriptive of dead bodies. The word vultures quoted here refers to a carrion eating bird. Eating habits of eagles are the same, btw. Look it up.

Can you not READ? To justify your interpretation you have to LIE about what is written here. Vultures, or the spiritual equivalent one would suppose are demons, are the entities used to carry away the dead.

In order to justify your interpretation you have to misrepresent what the actual meaning of the words is supposed to be.

That is the devil's work and you've done it well. Keep on lying about it. You may even convince a few others of your deluded ideas.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Were you paying attention about 2 or 3 years ago, when two were in a bed, and one died, and the other lived? Did you see them hauling dead carcasses in the hundreds to get rid of them? I think you missed the point.

For a second, life almost came to a stand still, when that happened. If you claim that was a man made phenomenon, at least you know it can happen, just like that, again.

 

[The Light]

What do your socks have to do with anything? You are one confused boy.

Comprehension of the scripture you've quoted is NOT the issue here. Your references deliberately obfuscate the discussion. How many times do I have to say it? You write like a stubborn Jew.

I ought to know. ;)

No. A stubborn German.

I am addressing ONLY ONE scripture verse and you can't even get that right.

Oh, but I have.

Something not of this earth removes the dead and deposits the refuse in a place reserved for the dead. One normally assumes this means the grave, but church types invent something else that isn't there.

LOL. Church types. I'm more of a common sense type.

Yes they even refuse to believe the evidence of scripture itself and substitute their own fiction for it. The scripture says CARCASS. Deliberate refusal of the meaning of the word doesn't erase what God intended. When it says VULTURES do the removal - it means exactly that. The work vultures do on dead bodies is underlined and studied - except by those who deny the evidence of their own eyes. The VULTURES remove the dead from the earth. If we move beyond earthly creatures then the only interpretation is that something other than birds do the job. What is it?

We can use carcass and vultures. It changes nothing.

No doubt your next move is to accuse me of not being justified by the blood of God who died upon the cross. That's not your call, by the way.

Why would I do that? You remind me of an old friend of mine. Dreaming up problems in the mind that do not exist.

I'd be willing to bet real money you don't even know why God died on the tree. Today's common reaction is to vomit buzz words and religious slogans to justify real ignorance, sweet ignorance. The church will continue to eat its own vomitus for the limited span of years left to it - never knowing or understanding the glorious truth God has revealed - never truly able to persuade a world that's paying no attention to the church's irrelevance and self-importance.

Sound like you were studying to be a pastor and got burned. You shouldn't walk in a grudge, it deters you from reaching your calling.

All of this is offered for your edification, not as personal criticism. I submit in the hope you will lower your attitude and learn. You can do it if you abandon the rubbish the church has piled upon your back. You can do it if you read the gospel - as if for the 1st time.

If I was passing out advice I would almost tell you the same.

All I'm trying to do here is to examine ONE VERSE, not argue over an entire collection of scripture selected to subvert its meaning. But if that's the way you want to play it - I can play too.

You really need a little more common sense and understanding. I have be trying to explain to you we can use other scriptures to prove what you are saying is wrong. The unrighteous are not removed. I showed you that those taken are seen in heaven and those that are left are cast into the wrath of God. But you don't want to hear these things and only want to look at the verse itself without really understanding what the verse says.

So when looking at the verse all you want to do is look at the words, carcass and vultures and form an incorrect conclusion. When the disciples asked where those that are taken go, Jesus could have just as easily answered "Where there's smoke there's fire. Then you would go off tangent and say those that are taken are taken to hell because of smoke and fire. All Jesus would be really saying is where I am that's where everyone is taken. All you need is a little common sense.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That's me, asking you to understand before you holler,

 

[Davy]

Jesus tells us to pray that we will be counted worthy to escape for we born-again believers are not appointed to wrath!!!

First of all, Jesus did not say we, His Church, are not appointed to wrath; that was Apostle Paul that said that in 1 Thessalonians 5. And Paul gave an example there of 'which' wrath that he was talking about, NOT "great tribulation" wrath, but GOD's Wrath on the last day of this world.

Secondly, the TYPE of escape Jesus was pointing to is escaping the hour of TEMPTATION that is to come upon the whole world, pointing to the false-Messiah that is coming to play Jesus at the end, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world with.

The false Pre-trib Rapture doctors you listen to have God's Word all twisted in your mind. You need to come out of that and actually study more of The Bible for yourself.

 

[The Light]

First of all, Jesus did not say we, His Church, are not appointed to wrath; that was Apostle Paul that said that in 1 Thessalonians 5. And Paul gave an example there of 'which' wrath that he was talking about, NOT "great tribulation" wrath, but GOD's Wrath on the last day of this world.
Secondly, the TYPE of escape Jesus was pointing to is escaping the hour of TEMPTATION that is to come upon the whole world, pointing to the false-Messiah that is coming to play Jesus at the end, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world with.

Excellent and a great point. It was Paul who said we are not appointed to wrath. And you are also correct that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, so well done on these points.

So what did Jesus say we can escape from? We can escape from all these things which is the 7 seals. That is wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilence in addition to the great tribulation. Hence Jesus is saying that there will be a rapture BEFORE the tribulation and those that are watching and ready can escape the hour of temptation and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

The false Pre-trib Rapture doctors you listen to have God's Word all twisted in your mind. You need to come out of that and actually study more of The Bible for yourself.

What do you mean by false pretrib rapture? Jesus said we can escape all these things and stand before the Son of man. These things are the tribulation which you have already proved you understand.

You've riden the horse and then brushed him down. Finish it. Put him in the barn.

 

[David in NJ]

First of all, Jesus did not say we, His Church, are not appointed to wrath; that was Apostle Paul that said that in 1 Thessalonians 5. And Paul gave an example there of 'which' wrath that he was talking about, NOT "great tribulation" wrath, but GOD's Wrath on the last day of this world.

Secondly, the TYPE of escape Jesus was pointing to is escaping the hour of TEMPTATION that is to come upon the whole world, pointing to the false-Messiah that is coming to play Jesus at the end, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world with.

The false Pre-trib Rapture doctors you listen to have God's Word all twisted in your mind. You need to come out of that and actually study more of The Bible for yourself.

It is more then 'study' = it is and always has been a 'heart issue'

 

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

First of all, Jesus did not say we, His Church, are not appointed to wrath; that was Apostle Paul that said that in 1 Thessalonians 5. And Paul gave an example there of 'which' wrath that he was talking about, NOT "great tribulation" wrath, but GOD's Wrath on the last day of this world.

Secondly, the TYPE of escape Jesus was pointing to is escaping the hour of TEMPTATION that is to come upon the whole world, pointing to the false-Messiah that is coming to play Jesus at the end, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world with.

The false Pre-trib Rapture doctors you listen to have God's Word all twisted in your mind. You need to come out of that and actually study more of The Bible for yourself.

Asking one of these pre-trib types to accept anything other than their perverse interpretation is like asking satan to accept Christ as its lord and savior. It's not likely to happen.

Asking one of these anti-semitic self-righteous dogmatic church types to accept history and Biblical references is like asking Adolph Hitler to kiss a Jew.

The tribulation was predicted by Jeremiah, defined by Daniel, limited to one occurrence by Christ and recorded in the pages of the history of the 20th century. Barbaric church types embrace doctrines of demons and actually hope for another holocaust. They refuse to be persuaded otherwise. Their desire is for another Hitler, not ha-Messiach, to make their dreams come true.

This is by way of testimony to Biblical reference and historic truth in the eyes of those who only hope to murder more innocent Jewish men women and children. May God visit their filthy desires upon them and their families instead.

I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Yisrael. - GOD as quoted in Genesis 12:3

"from Zion will go forth the Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Blessed be He, Who in His holiness, gave the Torah to His people Yisrael...the Torah ... placed before the children of Yisrael, at the command of the Lord, by the hand of Moses." (Shabbat Siddur)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Davy]

Asking one of these pre-trib types to accept anything other than their perverse interpretation is like asking satan to accept Christ as its lord and savior. It's not likely to happen.

Asking one of these anti-semitic self-righteous dogmatic church types to accept history and Biblical references is like asking Adolph Hitler to kiss a Jew.

The tribulation was predicted by Jeremiah, defined by Daniel, limited to one occurrence by Christ and recorded in the pages of the history of the 20th century. Barbaric church types embrace doctrines of demons and actually hope for another holocaust. They refuse to be persuaded otherwise. Their desire is for another Hitler, not ha-Messiach, to make their dreams come true.

This is by way of testimony to Biblical reference and historic truth in the eyes of those who only hope to murder more innocent Jewish men women and children. May God visit their filthy desires upon them and their families instead.

I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Yisrael. - GOD as quoted in Genesis 12:3

"from Zion will go forth the Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Blessed be He, Who in His holiness, gave the Torah to His people Yisrael...the Torah ... placed before the children of Yisrael, at the command of the Lord, by the hand of Moses." (Shabbat Siddur)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Lot of Christian Churches today actually support... the orthodox unbelieving Jews with their plans to build the next temple. So I don't think the hatred you are claiming they have is real.

 

[M3n0r4h]

My answer is that I neither know the day or the hour of my departure from this mortal coil, so I must remain constantly vigilant in my daily walk and I must repent as often as I sin in thought, word, deed, or am in failure to do. Therefore, the timing of the rapture is of no consequence to me because my salvation is not based upon whether my understanding of the event is accurate or not. Just my 2 cents. Cheers.

 

[The Light]

Asking one of these pre-trib types to accept anything other than their perverse interpretation is like asking satan to accept Christ as its lord and savior. It's not likely to happen.

or
Asking someone who understands there is a pretribulation rapture to accept anything other than the truth is like asking satan to accept Christ as its lord and savior. It's not going to happen.

Asking one of these anti-semitic self-righteous dogmatic church types to accept history and Biblical references is like asking Adolph Hitler to kiss a Jew.

I am unaware of any pre tribulation believing Christians that are antisemitic. I am also unaware of any Christians that are self-righteous. Being self righteous and being a Christian does not compute.

The tribulation was predicted by Jeremiah, defined by Daniel, limited to one occurrence by Christ and recorded in the pages of the history of the 20th century.

The tribulation that occurs during the final week has not occurred yet. The seals are not opened.

Barbaric church types embrace doctrines of demons and actually hope for another holocaust. They refuse to be persuaded otherwise. Their desire is for another Hitler, not ha-Messiach, to make their dreams come true.

Barbaric church types? Where have you been attending Church?

This is by way of testimony to Biblical reference and historic truth in the eyes of those who only hope to murder more innocent Jewish men women and children. May God visit their filthy desires upon them and their families instead.

Matthew 6
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Yisrael. - GOD as quoted in Genesis 12:3

"from Zion will go forth the Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Blessed be He, Who in His holiness, gave the Torah to His people Yisrael...the Torah ... placed before the children of Yisrael, at the command of the Lord, by the hand of Moses." (Shabbat Siddur)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

A little less hollering and a lot more understanding seems advisable. Speak softly and carry a big sword.