Brakelite
Well-Known Member
"In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men". Matt 15:9
First day worship
- Thread starter tdickensheets
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Pavel Mosko
Member
Thanks for posting this! I have been battling the Seventh Day Adventists on Christian Forums over this stuff. In fact, just got banned today over it. :)
Pavel Mosko
Member
Amen! As I said on another board, Sunday worship was an important part of the ancient Christian witness. Not only did they proclaim the gospel and the resurrection on Sunday, but that message was also preached and reinforced by worshipping on Sunday. Ancient Christians also were sabbath keeping but the kicker is most of that was because of them considering themselves as Jews and preaching at the temple and the synagogue. Sometime after the destruction of the temple in AD 70 the synagogal prayers were changed so any believer who attended would be invoking damnation on themselves. So by that time, believing Jewish believers began to divide from the rest of other Jews . The Bar Kochba rebellion was another major factor that caused separation of the Jewish believers from nonbelieving Jews. Christians were already looked on with suspicion, but Christ made plain his kingdom was not of this World, so that became a good reason for any Jewish believers to separate from the unbelieving remnants of natural Israel.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Battling? So your opinion of history...
is a hill you are willing to die on at the expense of biblical truth?
Pavel Mosko
Member
Absolutely! Because this is not just Biblical truth. Before there was "Biblical" there was the Apostolic Preaching and this essential fact was part of that. It was part of the most fundamental message of Christianity, the Gospel that is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The ancient Christians bore witness to this truth, they suffered and died for it. That is why the term martyr exists, it originally just meant "a witness" in Greek but took on new meaning based on the history of early Christianity.
There is a passage that was given concerning the Docetic Heresy 1 John 4:1-5 that I believe applies the famous "test the spirits passage", but that passage likewise applies to prophetic messages that go against core Christian doctrines, like the Islamic message, but I believe applies here to because Adventist's want to make this a wedge issue and this practice has a much stronger foundation that most people are aware of.
Nobody's making a wedge. God sanctified the 7th day. It is even a part of the Ten Commandments. I don't see anybody changing the other nine.
Also. Christ asked us to commemorate his death, not his resurrection
Does it matter if Sunday is part of a tradition?
"In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men". Matt 15:9
Makes perfect sense, tho. sun worship is as old almost as time.
Eze 8:16"And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east"
www.historyandheadlines.com
Also, and this is what I don't understand, if a day doesn't make a difference, what is the big deal with Adventists worshiping on Saturday?
Christian forum is divied up. I think there are some places that others cannot post. Were you in a place you weren't supposed to be? Christian forum is predominatly Sunday-keeping, so I don't know that you were banned because of saying the Sabbath has been changed.
It looks like you are still a member there????
Also. Christ asked us to commemorate his death, not his resurrection
Does it matter if Sunday is part of a tradition?
"In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men". Matt 15:9
Makes perfect sense, tho. sun worship is as old almost as time.
Eze 8:16"And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east"
March 7, 321: How Sunday Became the Christian Day of Rest - History and Headlines
On March 7, 321, Roman Emperor Constantine I decreed that dies Solis Invicti (‘sun-day,’) would be the Roman day of rest throughout the Roman Empire.
www.historyandheadlines.com
Also, and this is what I don't understand, if a day doesn't make a difference, what is the big deal with Adventists worshiping on Saturday?
Christian forum is divied up. I think there are some places that others cannot post. Were you in a place you weren't supposed to be? Christian forum is predominatly Sunday-keeping, so I don't know that you were banned because of saying the Sabbath has been changed.
It looks like you are still a member there????
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The biblical record, written by eye witnesses to the events unfolding around them, is the foundation of faith and practise. While your claim that Sunday was an historical fact of Christian faith and practise since the time of the apostles, is simply not borne out by scripture. There is no mention of Sunday in scripture as a day reserved for worship, congregational gathering, prayer, or praise or the reading of scripture, all practices common to standard worship traditions. Not one word. History and tradition however do tell a story. It's a story of politics, of subterfuge, of coercion, of compromise and convenience. And it's center was not in the apostolic church as it grew and developed in Jerusalem, Antioch in Syria, or Pella, or those churches of the East in Assyria or even in Asia minor. No, the story of Sunday sacredness began in Rome and Alexandria, and it was a couple of centuries later that this new christianized baptized pagan tradition became common in other cities. But wherever and whenever it became established is no more than of passing interest, as these facts harmonize with the Bible revealing no scriptural mandate for Sunday, and no "thus sayeth the Lord" regarding the setting aside of the Sabbath.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Wrong. God has made the Sabbath a wedge through which He desires to bless you. The Sabbath, as He established it by ceasing from His work, made the Sabbath to be a gift to mankind, a time in which man may stop/cease from his work for 24 hours and commune with his Creator. It's a gift. The vast majority of Christianity refuse to even open it, but return it to sender, and choose another day in it's stead. A day set aside for worship of the sun. A baptized pagan day in which there is no power, no sanctity, and no biblical mandate. It is not the Lord's day, but a satanic counterfeit.
Here is a remarkable statement by Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, the author of the Standard Manual for Baptist Churches. In 1893, he addressed a group of hundreds of Baptist ministers and shocked them as he explained how Sunday came into the Christian church.
“What a pity that it [Sunday] comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, then adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!”—Before a New York ministers’ conference, November 13, 1893.
Pavel Mosko
Member
Dear @Brakelite I got the following things on my side besides Jesus (obviously) :)
1) The plain text of the New Testament
2) the unanimous testimony of the Ancient Church, starting with various Apostolic Fathers that came immediately on the heels of the writing of the NT.
3) I got the testimony of modern Messianic Jews and the general understanding of the prophetic and symbolic meaning of the Old Testament types and shadows that they and the Ancient Church bears witness to.
www.umjc.org
So, who do you got on your side again?
1) Seven Day Baptists whose laughable position was refuted 4 centuries ago.
2) Ellen White, I presume who has a ton of scriptural issues with her prophecies and teachings and skeletons in her closet as far as a being a "Prophetic" figure and teacher according to the standards of scripture itself.
3) I assume you also assume Jesus is on your side too, but I will point out that the Seventh Day Adventist Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible because the Biblical Jesus was not an Aaronic Priest according to scripture!!
Thank You and Have a Nice day!
1) The plain text of the New Testament
2) the unanimous testimony of the Ancient Church, starting with various Apostolic Fathers that came immediately on the heels of the writing of the NT.
3) I got the testimony of modern Messianic Jews and the general understanding of the prophetic and symbolic meaning of the Old Testament types and shadows that they and the Ancient Church bears witness to.
Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
All of Creation is in need of redemption, as Scripture says: “. . . which God created to do.” ( Sefat Emet)
www.umjc.org
So, who do you got on your side again?
1) Seven Day Baptists whose laughable position was refuted 4 centuries ago.
2) Ellen White, I presume who has a ton of scriptural issues with her prophecies and teachings and skeletons in her closet as far as a being a "Prophetic" figure and teacher according to the standards of scripture itself.
3) I assume you also assume Jesus is on your side too, but I will point out that the Seventh Day Adventist Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible because the Biblical Jesus was not an Aaronic Priest according to scripture!!
Thank You and Have a Nice day!
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
So your appeal is to tradition. That's fine as far as it goes. Tradition is great, so long as the tradition doesn't negate, counter, or contradict the word of God. You know I am sure what Jesus had to say to those who need their false teachings on traditions that countered the declared word of God right?Dear @Brakelite I got the following things on my side besides Jesus (obviously) :)
1) The plain text of the New Testament
2) the unanimous testimony of the Ancient Church, starting with various Apostolic Fathers that came immediately on the heels of the writing of the NT.
3) I got the testimony of modern Messianic Jews and the general understanding of the prophetic and symbolic meaning of the Old Testament types and shadows that they and the Ancient Church bears witness to.
Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
All of Creation is in need of redemption, as Scripture says: “. . . which God created to do.” ( Sefat Emet)
So, who do you got on your side again?
1) Seven Day Baptists whose laughable position was refuted 4 centuries ago.
2) Ellen White, I presume who has a ton of scriptural issues with her prophecies and teachings and skeletons in her closet as far as a being a "Prophetic" figure and teacher according to the standards of scripture itself.
3) I assume you also assume Jesus is on your side too, but I will point out that the Seventh Day Adventist Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible because the Biblical Jesus was not an Aaronic Priest according to scripture!!
Thank You and Have a Nice day!
As for me and my house, we shall love the Lord our God with all our hearts, souls, and minds. We shall, by His grace and strength, obey God in all things that make up the revealed will of God for our lives. That includes ceasing from our own works in order to gain salvation. As a sign of that, we keep holy the Sabbath, a memorial of God's ceasing from His works at creation, and a reminder to all those who fear and worship Him... The redeemed of spiritual Israel... That it is God and God only that justifies, sanctifies, and promises to glorify those who obey Him.
Thus my foundation is upon the Rock Christ Jesus, and upon His word.
KJV Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
KJV Deuteronomy 5:12-15
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(Isaiah 58 is a prophetic message to all those who claim Christ as their savior, a promise of favor, of blessing, of ministry, providence, and protection.)
KJV Matthew 5:18-19
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
KJV Mark 2:27-28
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
(But though Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, is He your Lord?)
KJV Revelation 21:6-8, 27
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, (note Ezekiel 22:8, where God describes those that dishonor, neglect, or ignore God's Sabbaths, as they that defile holy things. The Sabbath according to scripture is holy. To everyone, not just Jews. It was made holy at the time of creation, the law that was later given at Sinai confirmed this.) the either whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV Acts 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Quite true that Jesus was not a priest after the order of Levi. Please explain how that should concern Seventh Day Adventists who recognize Jesus as their High Priest after the order of Melchizedek?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You presume? And therein lies your problem.
As to the the eighth day hypothesis, the example given in your quote wherein there were 8 days to be observed, hold absolutely no connection whatsoever to the 7th day Sabbath in particular, nor the 7 day week in general. Both were examples of 8 days were observed from the birth of a child, which happens on any given day of the week. There is no significance to that at all, it wasn't made holy by reason of that command, nor sanctified in any way, and nor is it a type or shadow of redemption.
Pavel Mosko
Member
My position is not just with Tradition but with scripture, saint Paul especially. As an Eastern Christian I realized that the various Eastern Churches, Church fathers etc. read saint Paul especially on this issue, the way did I did earlier as both a non-denominational Charismatic, and earlier as a cradle Conservative Catechized Lutheran.
In addition to this I would say, we are all subtly affected by tradition whether we want to realize it or not (our entire cultural background). To deny this is to suffer from Naive Realism.
en.wikipedia.org
So my position is that of the ancient Church. It is the Bible along with Testimony of the Church, basically the way the people who received the scriptures and were actually discipled by the apostles saw things compared to you and other folks who are 1500-2000 years away from the events of the New Testament.
Besides all this there is actually scripture for a number of other factors that you would also deem as "tradition", Not to mention how even the Bible is itself an aspect or Paradosis, by definition, (something that was preserved with care and handed down to the next generation). Without Paradosis there would be no Bible, since God used humans to curate his Word to mankind.
I would also say that Paradosis is important when it comes to things like the Gospel and what we teach dogmatically. I'm especially talking about what is called "The Canon of saint Vincent" that describes the Rule of Faith having the characteristics of:
1) Antiquity (scripture)
2) Universality (needs to be common to all the ancient Christians)
3) Consensus (You cannot based your viewpoint on a narrow position, rejected by the bulk of the orthodox believers).
Anyway, your positions suffers on points 2 and 3 especially, and also a little bit on 1 (finding a clear explicit Apostolic witness to what you are claiming.
I should however better explain and qualify things. I believe that Saturday aka the Sabbath is sacred, as did the ancient Christians. But this has more to do with Sacramental reasons, especially around how holiness in the Bible is constructed. In the Bible the entire construct of holiness comes from things set apart Liturgically for God service. So I do have some respect for the sabbath and do try to observe it in my own Christian way of taking time off work to rest and do spiritual activities like prayer, bible study, or preparation for Sunday. But this comes more from the mind set of sacramental reverence then trying to observe the Sabbath in some kind of Mosaic way of halachas etc..
It is done more relationally than legalistically, and it is more about doing things like cultivating a mind and atmosphere of reverence etc. and other Jewish paradigm stuff that the early Christians absorbed from early apostles.
And I like to point out, because people seldom realize this. This is where the Weekend comes from! aka- The ancient Christians liturgically observing the Sabbath and the Lord's Day together as one unit. If you are a Christian, you are doubly blessed because you get two days off rather than just one!
In addition to this I would say, we are all subtly affected by tradition whether we want to realize it or not (our entire cultural background). To deny this is to suffer from Naive Realism.
Naïve realism (psychology) - Wikipedia
So my position is that of the ancient Church. It is the Bible along with Testimony of the Church, basically the way the people who received the scriptures and were actually discipled by the apostles saw things compared to you and other folks who are 1500-2000 years away from the events of the New Testament.
Besides all this there is actually scripture for a number of other factors that you would also deem as "tradition", Not to mention how even the Bible is itself an aspect or Paradosis, by definition, (something that was preserved with care and handed down to the next generation). Without Paradosis there would be no Bible, since God used humans to curate his Word to mankind.
I would also say that Paradosis is important when it comes to things like the Gospel and what we teach dogmatically. I'm especially talking about what is called "The Canon of saint Vincent" that describes the Rule of Faith having the characteristics of:
1) Antiquity (scripture)
2) Universality (needs to be common to all the ancient Christians)
3) Consensus (You cannot based your viewpoint on a narrow position, rejected by the bulk of the orthodox believers).
Anyway, your positions suffers on points 2 and 3 especially, and also a little bit on 1 (finding a clear explicit Apostolic witness to what you are claiming.
I should however better explain and qualify things. I believe that Saturday aka the Sabbath is sacred, as did the ancient Christians. But this has more to do with Sacramental reasons, especially around how holiness in the Bible is constructed. In the Bible the entire construct of holiness comes from things set apart Liturgically for God service. So I do have some respect for the sabbath and do try to observe it in my own Christian way of taking time off work to rest and do spiritual activities like prayer, bible study, or preparation for Sunday. But this comes more from the mind set of sacramental reverence then trying to observe the Sabbath in some kind of Mosaic way of halachas etc..
It is done more relationally than legalistically, and it is more about doing things like cultivating a mind and atmosphere of reverence etc. and other Jewish paradigm stuff that the early Christians absorbed from early apostles.
And I like to point out, because people seldom realize this. This is where the Weekend comes from! aka- The ancient Christians liturgically observing the Sabbath and the Lord's Day together as one unit. If you are a Christian, you are doubly blessed because you get two days off rather than just one!
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Pavel Mosko
Member
The significance was found by the Early Christians and that is good enough for me for I follow "the Faith Once Delivered unto the Saints".
I also notice the deflection at bringing up Ellen White. Where you get your teaching from matters because they shape your reality. I maintain this is not just "Bible and Me under a Tree". Furthermore, if you are SDA then we know good and well that your reasons for carrying on have a lot more going on that just the actual scripture. It is stuff like the Great Controversy, Three Angels Message, Investigative Judgment etc. Oh and by the way this stuff also is a tradition/ paradosis. It is just a much much much more dubious one!
And if you are not SDA but some kind of militant Messianic Jewish that will is also worth noting.
Anyway, this essay put out by a Calvinist explains the issues I'm getting at with the "Bible and Me under a Tree" saying.
Solo Scriptura: The Difference a Vowel Makes, by Keith A. Mathison
www.bible-researcher.com
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Pavel Mosko
Member
Ignatius of Antioch
The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians, AD 103
CHAP, VIII. — CAUTION AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINES.
Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence,[5] and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.
Be not deceived with strange doctrines, "nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies,"[3] and things in which the Jews make their boast. "Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new."[4] For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.[6]
CHAP. IX. — LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things[7] have come to the possession of a new[8] hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance[10] of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,[12] and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.[16]
If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me;"[9] and again, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am; "[11] how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us."[13] Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."[14] For say the[holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."[15] But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.[1] And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days[of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day,"[2] on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things,"[3] who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."[4] These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth[5] insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!
CHAP. X. — BEWARE OF JUDAIZING.
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.[7] For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess[12] Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace[13] Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For "if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?"[6] Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: "The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people."[8] This was first fulfilled in Syria; for "the disciples were called Christians at Antioch,"[9] when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven,[10] and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger[11] may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God;[14] and in his seed all those have been blessed[15] who were ordained to eternal life[16] in Christ.
The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians, AD 103
CHAP, VIII. — CAUTION AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINES.
Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence,[5] and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.
Be not deceived with strange doctrines, "nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies,"[3] and things in which the Jews make their boast. "Old things are passed away: behold, all things have become new."[4] For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Jesus Christ. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential. For He is not the voice of an articulate utterance, but a substance begotten by divine power, who has in all things pleased Him that sent Him.[6]
CHAP. IX. — LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things[7] have come to the possession of a new[8] hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance[10] of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,[12] and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.[16]
If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me;"[9] and again, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am; "[11] how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us."[13] Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."[14] For say the[holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."[15] But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.[1] And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days[of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day,"[2] on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things,"[3] who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."[4] These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth[5] insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!
CHAP. X. — BEWARE OF JUDAIZING.
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.[7] For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess[12] Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace[13] Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.
Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For "if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?"[6] Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: "The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people."[8] This was first fulfilled in Syria; for "the disciples were called Christians at Antioch,"[9] when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven,[10] and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger[11] may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God;[14] and in his seed all those have been blessed[15] who were ordained to eternal life[16] in Christ.
Pavel Mosko
Member
You SDA forget that God never authorized Purim nor the Festival of the Dedication aka Hanukkah but they nevertheless were celebrated as lesser feasts, and it seem like God approved for even Jesus celebrated Hanukkah and never spoke out against Purim.
The same thing is true for Sunday only much much more so, because the day of the Resurrection, of Pentecost, and John Receiving his Revelation (where you guys ironically get the term "The Spirit of Prophecy) happened on a Sunday and the significance was not lost on the Early Christians. We are not but all believers have now received a new more perfect covenant per the epistle of Hebrew. We are called with a new name according to an OT prophecy. We get our identity in Christ and not the Sabbath.
The problem is you Adventist do not really believe in the New Birth or the new creation! I mean I'm sure you pay lip service to it etc. but not really.
And again I would point to the real source of your objection as not truly coming from scripture alone but from the filter of the teaching and visions of Ellen White and "The Pioneers".
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Pavel Mosko
Member
By the way I listen to a lot of Apologetics concerning Adventism put out from former cradle Adventists on these kinds of topics. Technically speaking it is my new favorite hobby! :)
I actually feel called to this ministry after Tangoing a few years with the SDA at Christian Forums dot com. This morning I am listening to this former SDA Evangelist.
I actually feel called to this ministry after Tangoing a few years with the SDA at Christian Forums dot com. This morning I am listening to this former SDA Evangelist.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
How did you get to the point that you ascribe motive to people you don't even know?
"You SDA...?"
"You Adventist do not believe...?"
"I'm sure you pay lip service...?"
Can you give some unimpeachable testimony that Adventist's, on the whole (rather than just the Adventist you're blasting at any given moment), neither teach nor believe in regeneration?
How extensive is your research on Adventist soteriology? How many theses/dissertations have you read from church theologians and/or Divinity students on this subject? How many "pioneers" can you name without Google's help?
You might want to consider that not only do Adventist's believe and teach the new birth experience, but they are among the few faith groups that acknowledge that righteousness has always been by faith, all the way back to Heaven before the fall of Lucifer, and that Christ marveled that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel, new nothing of the subject. What do you think Adam and Eve would have needed to resist the serpent's temptation?
"Us-and-them" is not going to serve you well in apologetics, friend. You'll never convince anyone of anything. You may discourage some poor soul from keeping what faith they had, if that kind of thing appeals to you. :)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It is very easy to form an opinion you have already preconceived by listening only to those that agree with you. There are so many holes in your preconceptions and presumptions it's difficult to know where to begin.
All I can suggest is you begin to research whether your judgements are valid based on the testimonies and teachings of actual Seventh Day Adventists. I dunt mind discussing the biblical aspects of our beliefs, but I'm not going to discuss your your assertions based on our badly informed and sadly mistaken enemies.
All I can suggest is you begin to research whether your judgements are valid based on the testimonies and teachings of actual Seventh Day Adventists. I dunt mind discussing the biblical aspects of our beliefs, but I'm not going to discuss your your assertions based on our badly informed and sadly mistaken enemies.
Pavel Mosko
Member
It's funny you talk about Us vs. Them, you remind me of my time at an old Postmodern Christian message board called theooze dot com. There was a person I knew back in the early 2000s named Polycarp that mentioned that sort of thing. And I have used that exact language myself talking about Christians concerning the Essentials of Faith and how Christians have demonized and warred with each other, especially Catholics vs. Protestants.
As far as how sure I am on regeneration? I am sure as a heart attack! But mind you this is a slippery topic. My personal experience is limited, but I am studying the work of folks that got deep roots in Adventism.
In terms of my personal experience. Yes it is limited but can point to things like
1) You got formal statements from Ellen White. Ellen White herself frequently contradicts herself on any given topic, especially concerning who she tends to be plagiarizing at the time.
2) I got input from SDA to me personally. It is clear, they believe that the 10 Commandments are salvific, and especially when it comes to Sabbath keeping.
Besides this I would point to something I see again and again in recent history from the 1950s onward, namely.
3) There is a Seventh Day Adventist tactic of taking official Christian terms and redefining them according to their own official theology, rather than using them according to official historic definitions. The Best example of them is concerning the use of "Trinity" to describe their so called "Biblical" Heavenly trio, which if you pay attention to things in how they are actually used of defined is really Tritheism, Semi-Arianism and even occasionally full Arianism (quotes from Uriah Smith especially)
But back to Polycarp, your rebuke or warning kind of reminds me of the problems going on with his congregation. He was this neo-evangelical pastor, who did not formally adopt any kind of Faith statement. But this sort of thing leads to a nightmare if you have or believe in any form of Christian orthodoxy, or standards. It is the saying from the Bible, "How can two walk together unless they be in agreement". And I would say, the SDA do in fact a method to handle this, it is to proselytize us away from the "Faith Once Delivered Unto the Saints", and receive the Gospel of their "Present Truth". Which is the Gospel filtered through all their new revelations.
But to answer your question, yes I'm sure the SDA say the believe in this., but you got to look at the particulars and not just hear the right buzzwords and assume they are advocating the basic Christian view of the term. Another good example of this is with the concept of Atonement. Seventh Day Adventist do not believe that Christ's work was finished on the Cross! They only believe "the penalty of Sin was paid for". So anyway, before you criticize me, you yourself should become better educated on some things like the Investigative Judgment. That incidentally is more foundational from a historic level than even their fixation on the Sabbath.
I also recommend you study the full history of the "Shut Door" doctrine/prophecy (1844 -1851) if you think I am going overboard etc. that alone should get you to rethink things. In a nutshell, early Adventism (Back before they embraced the Seventh Day) believed that only their "little band" was going to be saved! Everyone else who rejected Millerism, and their brand-new movement (150 member congregation) was doomed! Now, this kind of a teaching for anyone who has a lick of any common sense would obviously be unwise. It is literally "painting yourself into a Corner". And Adventist themselves were forced to modify it at least four other times before more or less unofficially abrogating it. But this does point to the erratic nature of things like theological / revelatory "Present Truth" and those who would pass judgment on Christianity for its position on Sunday when they themselves are the gang that can't shoot straight.
As far as your other warning go. I am not this militant when it comes to your average SDA that I would meet on the street. I had a very nice elderly couple who were my next door neighbors that I got on with. I never had nasty fights with them etc. a pleasant good relationship. The husband kept wanting to take me to church on Sunday. I would tell him "You don't want me, I would make a lousy Seventh Day Adventist! I like eating meat too much!! (I said that excuse based on my experience of spending time at Loma Linda, visiting my grand ma in the hospital). He would say, "Oh I eat meat!" Which I knew, but it was a polite excuse. The other one I had, the best one I had was my sleep schedule, of needing to sleep during the day and the morning was best for that.
Now I knew, there was stuff off with the SDA, but I took the basic consensus of mainstream evangelicalism to heart that they were "Christian" but a little off but within the realm of Christianity, but I no longer believe that. And the best evidence for it is their whole Sabbath proselytizing, they really believe the day of worship is Salvific! IF you read their actual documents from the pioneers you will understand why this is. But in saying all this, sure I'm sure their are some people raised as Evangelicals who reinterpet the faith through that kind of lens. Infact I have heard a few stories.
Anyway you may be onto something as far as your statement. My shelf life here probably has a limited time span, and I myself do not like to be too derogatory, but sometimes there are good valid Christian reasons for being so.
Oh and one last point I would like to make on the topic, which actually has more to do with my thread. There are two conflicting phenomena at work on this topic.
1) There is the heritage of the Adventist Pioneers, and how that fits into with historic Christianity.
2) There is the desire of Adventism itself to fit into mainstream Christianity and their various efforts to reform and repackage themselves.
And there is the synthesis between these two very different conflicting impulses, where Adventists often look for the sweet spot, where they attempt to harmonize these two conflicting things, but doing so is extremely problematic from a foundational level. It is like the saying of "The Man serving Two Masters", and the parable of the Wise and Foolish builders only applied to theology! If you have any interesting in Christian history, theology etc. there is so much stuff that is heretical from the founders of Adventism that it is not even funny! And in spite of all the repackaging and reformulating this stuff always leaks out. Both like the a Man Serving Two Masters, but also about that Bible passage, that mentions that salt water and pure water cannot coexist together (mixing them or "harmonizing" them only gives you weak salt water rather than fresh water).
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