A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[face2face]

So is this figurative too?

Revelation 14:11 ESV​

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

So you believe this is literal? that spirit being can burn and omit smoke?
Maybe you have been watching to many movies!

 

[Patrick1966]

 

[Patrick1966]

So you believe this is literal? that spirit being can burn and omit smoke?
Maybe you have been watching to many movies!

What about people who die in infancy. What have you deemed to be their fate?

 

[n2thelight]

Torment is to be created for ONE (and only one) purpose, and to revolt against your creator and forever be condemned to a meaningless existence because you were created to be an eternal being. Torment is to finally understand how great is the love that God had and how great was the price that the Son paid ... and to hate THEM for it. Torment is an eternity of growing in despair and resolute defiance at a GOD that you will not worship and cannot approach to harm.

No, sir, it is not Jesus that torments them ... it is their own rejection of Jesus that torments them.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;​

there is no one who understands;​

there is no one who seeks God.​

All have turned away,​

they have together become worthless;​

there is no one who does good,​

not even one.”​

“Their throats are open graves;​

their tongues practice deceit.”​

“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”​

“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”​

“Their feet are swift to shed blood;​

ruin and misery mark their ways,​

and the way of peace they do not know.”​

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

-Romans 3​

God did not inflict this on them in life, they chose it for themselves.
What suggests that they changed their settled opposition in death?

The soul can die

 

[n2thelight]

Are you suggesting that those thrown into the LOF simply cease to exist?

That's exactly what happens

 

[Patrick1966]

Absolutely he does but "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” Matt 15:24

You dont believe he was sent to save the whole house do you?

You must read with more care Patrick!

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Patrick1966]

That's exactly what happens

I'm starting to get it. So when Paul said that God was "making peace", he was actually saying that God made "peace" by DESTROYING the souls of all the bad people. Thanks for that insight!

Colossians 1:20
New International Version
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[n2thelight]

Are you suggesting that those thrown into the LOF simply cease to exist?

That's exactly what happens

Mortals cannot perform miracles like Jesus. They can learn and apply every utterance from God to the best of their abilities. They can try to show the love Jesus portrayed( not so easy in a satan ruled system)-- If others drove spikes through your flesh because you were so loving as Jesus was--could you say--forgive them Father they know not what they do? I doubt i can. But i can LISTEN to Jesus as God told us to do- Luke 10--Acts 20:20--the most important work ever on this earth.
The JW,s do not receive pay to teach in the congregations or bible studies or out in field service. Its given free. No plates passed around at meetings.

Did not the apostles do what Christ did , were they not mortal ?

 

[Patrick1966]

I'm starting to get it. So when Paul said that God was "making peace", he was actually saying that God made "peace" by DESTROYING the souls of all the bad people. Thanks for that insight!

Colossians 1:20
New International Version
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Patrick1966]

I made "peace" yesterday with a wasp's nest by KILLING them all! Can I get an "amen"?!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

View attachment 32105

There are many “palpatines” in the pulpits…

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I shared with you why--to destroy them forever.

Which is what I have said all along. Before God threw the unsaved masses of humanity, He destroyed death and the grave in the lake of fiore and then tossed the lost to suffer forever!

 

[Keiw]

If not, then what happens to the lost thoughout eternity?

All made their choice. God set before all-Deuteronomy 30:19--LIFE or DEATH--both will be everlasting.
The symbolism of eternal suffering= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in miss each day. miss each day of Gods love, it never ends--those traded 70-100 years of a unrepented sinful life and miss out on trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of life, not a wise trade off--likened to be an eternal suffering.

 

[Keiw]

That's exactly what happens

Did not the apostles do what Christ did , were they not mortal ?

That stopped after they all got murdered( but 1 died natural)-then the followers were murdered off, the religion died until these last days. The son of destruction( peredition) rose up in its place. 2Thess 2:3

 

[Keiw]

Which is what I have said all along. Before God threw the unsaved masses of humanity, He destroyed death and the grave in the lake of fiore and then tossed the lost to suffer forever!

The real eternal suffering = Deut 30:19--God set before all LIFE or DEATH-both will be everlasting. Those who choose death have thrown away trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of life in Gods kingdom for 70 -100 years of a sinful existence now. Not a very wise choice--( symbolism = )So as each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it NEVER ends--likened to be an eternal suffering.

 

[face2face]

What about people who die in infancy. What have you deemed to be their fate?

Have you ever heard the term "cost of creation".

 

[face2face]

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Correct and He is taking a people out of Israel & the Gentile for the purpose of His Name. Not all Israel is Israel.

 

[atpollard]

The soul can die

Eternal punishment [Matthew 25:46] … contrasted with Eternal Life.

 

[n2thelight]

Eternal punishment [Matthew 25:46] … contrasted with Eternal Life.

Death eternally is what that means

 

[atpollard]

Death eternally is what that means

Matthew chose the word "κόλασιν"

[Thayer's Greek Lexicon]
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18.

• Mat 25:46 [NASB] "These will go away into eternal punishment[G2851], but the righteous into eternal life."
• 1 John 4:18 [NASB] There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment[G2851], and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

You are redefining Matthew to fit your preconception; it says "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" (not death).