A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[St. SteVen]

If he wanted to he could, but he doesn't. He did through Moses and the apostles and Elijah, etc.

No miracles today? What do you make of this?

John 14:12 NET (New English Translation)
I tell you the solemn truth,[a] the person who believes in me will perform[b]
the miraculous deeds[c] that I am doing,[d] and will perform[e] greater deeds[f]
than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[face2face]

The 144,000 is a symbolic number and speaks to New Jerusalem of the future. The centre of administration the Kingdom of Heaven represented by 144,000 in the Age to come. Ezekiel was given a vision of the saints in Christ entering the literal Temple in Jerusalem as the Cherubim of glory, read Ezekiel 43:1-3, and heard the voice of Yahweh proclaiming: "Son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever." The number 144,000 is obvious for all to see (12 x 12) being
a symbolic number of fixedness and full completion, relating specifically to Israel, and therefore representing the hope of Israel.

If you go back to Revelation Chapter 4 you will see the priestly aspect of Israel were already symbolised in the twenty-four elders and
four living ones but now in Chapter 14 we have the collective of Israel brought into focus (sealed). Whereas twelve is representative of the tribes of Israel, its square, or one hundred and forty four, denote the families of Israel - read Zech 12:12-14.

As a general rule, we must read the Word of God with care and not force bias interpretations to the text in support of wrong teaching. In this case, the JW's take a highly symbolic chapter and use this number 144,000 to add their notions (wrong ideas) of Saints going to Heaven to judge with Christ while the remaining flock are left on earth.

It's a case of having no supporting Biblical references which is another test of authenticity.

This idea fails in many respects

1. Chapter 14 is completely symbolic from verse 1-20
2. The redeemed are catagorised in many ways within the Revelation 144,000 being one of those references
3. No supporting verses, chapters etc that speak of an elite group going to Heaven. In fact, all Scripture only speaks of earth being the reward of the Saints. Matthew 5:5
4. The only hierarchy given in all Scripture which again speaks to those Apostles ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel and if JW's believe they rank higher than them...well lets just say they are in for a shock!
5. The characteristics of the redeemed are those who have HIS FATHER'S NAME WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEADS: i.e Mentally inscribed see Ezek 9:4; Rev 7:3, 22:4; also Rev 9:4, 13:16, 20:4. All of which relate to the whole of the redeemed and not just a minority of the saved.

I'll leave it here as Keiw has a number of points to address.

F2F

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Another wrote this and I am simply pasting it here for your cognizance.


One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations. It is often incorrectly translated to mean “eternal” when in fact it means “age.” The absurdity of this bad translation can be seen in Revelation 14:11 where the phrase “aionios aionion” which means “age of the ages” is translated as “Forever and Ever.” You cannot add anything to forever because it is already an absolute measure of time. “The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished. Those who adhere to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment cannot argue about the meaning of this word. Anyone who studies the word meanings will agree that “aion” means “age” and that there is no individual word in Greek that specifically means “eternal.” Instead, they often claim correctly that you must take the word “aion” in context in order to determine whether it means age or eternity. However, they then erroneously infer that the context within the judgment passages is obviously that of eternity. They then argue that if judgment is not eternal, then no afterlife can be eternal since the word “aion” is used in both instances. In other words, “Since “aion” is used to describe both the period of judgment and the period of reward in the same context, how can you say that punishment is temporary and reward is permanent?” The answer is simple, even though you do see punishment and reward addressed together in some verses in which the word “aion” is used for both; there are other instances in which the writers of the New Testament do speak of eternity. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of eternity ever communicated in relation to judgment. Yet, the New Testament writers do speak of eternity in other contexts. As an example, Let us look at four verses from the New Testament book of Jude. Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. The Greek word for “everlasting” used in this verse is “aidios.” It is the adjective form of the adverb “aei” meaning “always, unceasingly, perpetually or on every occasion.” From this definition, it most certainly sounds like an unending period. Even so, in this context, the word “aidios” CANNOT mean “forever.” How do I know? The message is not extremely clear in Jude 1:6. However, we have a parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:4 which says: “God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment. (CEV) In this instance, Peter is much clearer than Jude is. He gives us an ending point for how long the sinning angels will be tied up. How long will they be in chains? “Until the time of judgment” Therefore the word “everlasting” as used in Jude 1:6 CANNOT mean forever. Jude 1:7 (NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Here the word “eternal” is “aion” meaning age. An age is an indefinite period of time, which could technically mean forever or it can just refer to either a specified or an unspecified period. As we discussed earlier, we need to look at the context of the verse in order to determine whether there is anything that might indicate the duration of that age. In this case, there is. The verse states that Sodom and Gomorrah “serve as an example of those who suffer eternal fire.” Therefore, if we want to know the ultimate effect or the ultimate duration of the “eternal fire” we must turn to Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. In what way is Sodom an example? Once again, let us look at the parallel verse in Peter 2:6: “Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.” When you combine what Jude said with what Peter said, it is obvious that the fire does not burn forever. A person who believes in conditionally immortality, the view that God will destroy the ungodly rather than tormenting them, would say that in this instance, the word “aion” speaks of eternality of consequence rather than eternality of duration. In other words, “The fire was eternal in that it completely accomplished its task and could not be quenched until it was finished.” This makes a lot of sense because obviously the fire is no longer burning. However, was the fire eternal in consequence as the annihilationist claims? Ezekiel 18:53-57 (NIV) However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. “What?” “Did he just say that God will restore Sodom?” Yes he did. If Sodom is an example of the consequence of “eternal fire”, if that fire fully accomplishes its purpose as God designed it too, and if God said that He would restore Sodom, then He will also restore ALL who experience that eternal fire. Therefore, in this instance, “aion” CANNOT refer to a duration of endless torture. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. The Greek word “aionios” in this passage is adjective meaning “age during.” Young’s Literal translates the verse this way: “Yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during” Our brothers and sisters who believe in eternal conscious torment would say, since you cannot assume that “life age-during” is eternal when dealing with punishment, you also cannot assume that Christians will have eternal life either. If you are reading this verse alone in context, they are right; there is nothing in this verse that indicates eternal life. Rightly so because this verse is not about eternal life. It is about age-during life. When is age-during life? It is life in the age of ages. Remember, the age of ages will serve a specific purpose and then a new age will begin. If the writers of the New Testament had intended to communicate punishment that was eternal, could they have done so? Yes! Can we know for sure that there is such a thing as eternal life? Yes! Jude knew the difference. Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The Greek word used here is still “aion” just as it is in all of the judgement passages where its meaning is age of ages. How then can I know that this same word means “forever” in this verse? I can know because of the usage of the Greek adjective “pas” meaning “all.”

I will only say this.

When you stand before your Lord, you will see that the Lake of Fire is eternal and someone led you astray with slick sounding philosophy disguising as the Word of God.

 

[Keiw]

So what you are saying is in a chapter which is full of symbology that one number you have decided is literal? Here is a challenge....show me something else in that chapter which is literal.

There are many literal things in Revelation. I didn't decide it was literal. I am taught by these-Matt 24:45

 

[Keiw]

But lets deal with your reference...unfortunately JW's have a way of twisting text for their own pleasure. Lets look at the Father's good pleasure shall we?

“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

This is the same spiritual flock which is repeated in Ezekiel 34 over and over mind you! And it's also the same spiritual flock referred to in Micah 7:14 "the flock of thine heritage" and is it a coincidence that Micah is quoted in Luke 12:52-53?

There is nothing at all here to support a literal 144,000 and certainly nowhere is it suggesting an elite minority going to heaven.

The great crowd; stars of heaven; sands of the seashore are all His Little Flock; The Flock of His heritage.

Nice try though!

The great crowd( Rev 7:9)-no man can number, these are the other sheep( John 10:16) not of that fold( little flock)--The little flock is numbered-144,000

 

[MatthewG]

Either God is a God isn’t.


That’s between you and God.

Cause man don’t have no say in it.

 

[Keiw]

No miracles today? What do you make of this?

John 14:12 NET (New English Translation)
I tell you the solemn truth,[a] the person who believes in me will perform[b]
the miraculous deeds[c] that I am doing,[d] and will perform[e] greater deeds[f]
than these, because I am going to the Father.

The apostles did some miracles. But it stopped after them.

 

[Keiw]

I will only say this.

When you stand before your Lord, you will see that the Lake of Fire is eternal and someone led you astray with slick sounding philosophy disguising as the Word of God.

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering, one lacking-love, mercy and justice---Not the true God of the bible, you are taught a fake.

 

[Behold]

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering, one lacking-love, mercy and justice---Not the true God of the bible, you are taught a fake.

Hell is created for the Devil and His angels.
its not "sadistic" to create for them, where they belong.
And its correct and right that those who are...... "of your Father the DEVIL"...... to end up with their father, after they die, exactly as the born again end up in Heaven with OUR Father, who is the Father of Jesus.

 

[Keiw]

Hell is created for the Devil and His angels.
its not "sadistic" to create for them, where they belong.
And its correct and right that those who are...... "of your Father the DEVIL"...... to end up with their father, after they die, exactly as the born again end up in Heaven with OUR Father, who is the Father of Jesus.

The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere. Only the little flock( 144,000) and the great crowd will be saved. One of those gets this promise-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22= the great crowd.
There is no literal eternal suffering for any. Destruction awaits the wicked.

 

[Behold]

The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere.

The born again have "eternal life". and are "seated in heavenly places", right now. "In Christ"..."one with God".

Never mind about the Great Crowd.
Be a born again Christian, if you want to go to heaven, otherwise you wont.

 

[Keiw]

The born again have "eternal life". and are "seated in heavenly places", right now. "In Christ"..."one with God".

Never mind about the Great Crowd.
Be a born again Christian, if you want to go to heaven, otherwise you wont.

That was spoken to the little flock=144,000, the anointed bride of Christ. These will sit on thrones beside Jesus-Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6--the great crowd will not leave the earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

The apostles did some miracles. But it stopped after them.

Your position on that is called Cessationism. FYI
The opposite is called Continuationism.

 

[face2face]

There are many literal things in Revelation. I didn't decide it was literal. I am taught by these-Matt 24:45

Ah right, so not up for the challenge there Keiw...interesting! I see you have popped in another verse to support your claim.

This time Keiw has taken us to the context of the parable of the 10 virgins to suggest this parable speaks to the 5 wise who now represent the 144,000 - I know right...Rev 14:1...he takes 144,000 as being literal only to now force symbolism on Matthew 24/25.

Nevertheless we must deal with his supporting reference.

The “Faithful and wise” servants are defined and explained by Christ as being the “wise” virgins of Matt 25:1-13.

What the Lord does here in Matt 24:45 is make Peter responsible for his own answer.

“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

Jesus is teaching here that sometimes milk is appropriate for the immature as per 1 Cor 3:1-2 and other times meat should be in their diet as per Heb 5:12 - portions vary!

It's 1 Pet 4:10 isn't it?

1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.

So who then are Jesus & Peter (who learned the lesson ;)) speaking to?

"each of you!" "all of us!" "the entire community"

Sorry Keiw....no elite spiritual group being referred to here...however you have learned how 1 Peter 4:10 speaks to Peter's question in Matthew 24 and how this relates to the Saints in Christ.

Enjoy.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The great crowd( Rev 7:9)-no man can number, these are the other sheep( John 10:16) not of that fold( little flock)--The little flock is numbered-144,000

I see your replies are getting a little light on there Keiw :

Another verse is now supplied this time John 10:16 which has me really excited!

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Firstly, is there anything here to suggest a group of believers who are more highly favoured than the other sheep? Who will ascend into Heaven? Who are set apart from the saved? Well, the answer is no!

However, the question is this, "Who are these other sheep?"

You see Keiw has been taught this is speaking to an elite group of Saints who ascend Heaven to rule with Christ, however this of course was not in the Lords mind when he spoke these words.

Lets read the text carefully.

Notice how Jesus states "I must bring them also" so Jesus knows of those who are his, but are yet to hear his voice!

So lets go over to John 11:51-52 for context

John 11:51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

So the other Sheep really are the scattered “flock of Joseph” as per Psalm 80:1-2 who to this point had no shepherd.

John 10:16 Represents those lost of the house of Israel who need saving!

Jesus is saying “I must bring them also” - at the moment they were “scattered abroad” John 11:51-52

@Keiw can you see the benefit in reading carefully and using relevant Scripture to show an understanding? Here you have learned the context of John 10:16 which is all about the Lords mind focused on those still scattered, and of course you can see how the Lord wanted to bring them into one sheep fold and NOT split them up, as you suggest.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Ah right, so not up for the challenge there Keiw...interesting! I see you have popped in another verse to support your claim.

This time Keiw has taken us to the context of the parable of the 10 virgins to suggest this parable speaks to the 5 wise who now represent the 144,000 - I know right...Rev 14:1...he takes 144,000 as being literal only to now force symbolism on Matthew 24/25.

Nevertheless we must deal with his supporting reference.

The “Faithful and wise” servants are defined and explained by Christ as being the “wise” virgins of Matt 25:1-13.

What the Lord does here in Matt 24:45 is make Peter responsible for his own answer.

“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

Jesus is teaching here that sometimes milk is appropriate for the immature as per 1 Cor 3:1-2 and other times meat should be in their diet as per Heb 5:12 - portions vary!

It's 1 Pet 4:10 isn't it?

1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.

So who then are Jesus & Peter (who learned the lesson ;)) speaking to?

"each of you!" "all of us!" "the entire community"

Sorry Keiw....no elite spiritual group being referred to here...however you have learned how 1 Peter 4:10 speaks to Peter's question in Matthew 24 and how this relates to the Saints in Christ.

Enjoy.

F2F

The faithful and wise servants who give food( spiritual) at the proper time to the domestics( Flock) are the real teachers that have Jesus.
Yes some will teach, others will do other things. Paul explained it like various parts of the body--not all do the same things but work in unity. One flock, united worldwide in love, peace and unity of thought( 1 Cor 1:10) no division= 1 single religion. Yet two groups mentioned in the NT= tHE little flock and the great crowd of other sheep who are not of that fold. Rev 7:9-John10:16

 

[Keiw]

I see your replies are getting a little light on there Keiw :

Another verse is now supplied this time John 10:16 which has me really excited!

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Firstly, is there anything here to suggest a group of believers who are more highly favoured than the other sheep? Who will ascend into Heaven? Who are set apart from the saved? Well, the answer is no!

However, the question is this, "Who are these other sheep?"

You see Keiw has been taught this is speaking to an elite group of Saints who ascend Heaven to rule with Christ, however this of course was not in the Lords mind when he spoke these words.

Lets read the text carefully.

Notice how Jesus states "I must bring them also" so Jesus knows of those who are his, but are yet to hear his voice!

So lets go over to John 11:51-52 for context

John 11:51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

So the other Sheep really are the scattered “flock of Joseph” as per Psalm 80:1-2 who to this point had no shepherd.

John 10:16 Represents those lost of the house of Israel who need saving!

Jesus is saying “I must bring them also” - at the moment they were “scattered abroad” John 11:51-52

@Keiw can you see the benefit in reading carefully and using relevant Scripture to show an understanding? Here you have learned the context of John 10:16 which is all about the Lords mind focused on those still scattered, and of course you can see how the Lord wanted to bring them into one sheep fold and NOT split them up, as you suggest.

F2F

No it shows 2 different promises, yet one flock--144,000 to heaven-the great crowd remain on earth.

 

[face2face]

No it shows 2 different promises, yet one flock--144,000 to heaven-the great crowd remain on earth.

Ah show us from the text these two different promises?
Reply's are still a tad short ;)

 

[Behold]

That was spoken to the little flock=144,000, the anointed bride of Christ. These will sit on thrones beside Jesus-Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6--the great crowd will not leave the earth.

The born again are the bride of Christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering, one lacking-love, mercy and justice---Not the true God of the bible, you are taught a fake.

Well the Lake of Fire is literal and true and only a denier would ignore the fact that Gods greatest attribute is His holiness! Even before His love and mercy. God was not obligated to save anyone. He chose because He loves. Man rebelled against God not the other way around.