How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

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VictoryinJesus

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true,

But we also need to make sure we will be raised by him when he appears.. I believe many will think they are saved, but will not be, and will be scrambling when they meet him to show why they think they deserve to be in heaven in desperation because they missed the ressurection..
It was for the joy set before him that he endured. What was to be gained greater than the loss and despising the shame. You..and me are the joy set before him that he endured …not for himself but so that others be with Him. That joy… Life set before Him. Consider the man who had a guest coming and he had nothing to set before his guest to eat. With how the Father prepared and set before Him the Joy to endure. You. And me. Are we His rejoicing? He didn’t say “But we also need to make sure we will be raised by him when he appears.. I believe many will think they are saved, but will not be, and will be scrambling” but instead to the Pharisees who accused him of tearing it down “I will raise it up” “I will build it New again” no focus on Himself as if he needed saving but confident where he was going seeing the Joy. Why did the Father save Him and call Him “My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” …to me it isn’t because he worried about his own safety …but His sight was set on mine and yours. “That your Joy be made full”
 

marks

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I agree, we need to accept that reconciliation, i.e. we need to be reconciled to God.

Let me share an idea that isn't well known among Christians today. Christians properly understand God's forgiveness in the following sense. Forgiveness of sins is nothing more and nothing less than overlooking our sins. When God forgives our sins, he decides to not hold our sins against us.

But, many Christians forget or don't know that our very existence itself offends God. Not only do we commit acts of sin, but we are the kinds of people who want to commit them. I commit acts of sin because I am a sinner. For this reason, not only am I condemned for what I do; I am condemned for who I am.

Mercy involves much more than the expiation of sins; the profundity of mercy is realized at the core of our being. By God's mercy, not only will we find pardon, we will find salvation, i.e. a fundamental transformation of our existence, which solves our fundamental problem with evil. As John says, "when we see him, we will be like him."

Right?

Well said, and I fully agree!

Much love!
 

VictoryinJesus

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true,

But we also need to make sure we will be raised by him when he appears.. I believe many will think they are saved, but will not be, and will be scrambling when they meet him to show why they think they deserve to be in heaven in desperation because they missed the ressurection..
If we are seeking the Joy of others over our own …then are we not seeking Him first? Should we not know that by seeking Him first …out of anothers obtaining Christ …then our own Joy is fulfilled. You reap what you sow. Is it true. If you seek Him first …in another then when He is revealed in them is our Joy made whole? Does the fruit of the Spirit of God in being another feed us as well? Comfort, brotherly love, patience, forgiveness, hope, encouragement…the bond of Love? How can we eat the good fruit of the Spirit when we a jealous some one else might bear the fruit before us? That is starvation of self. Neither eats and is satisfied.
 
J

Johann

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hope this helps !!!

The neuter pronoun "this" may refer to the one of three things: the "grace", the verb "saved" the noun "faith". Some think it refers to "faith" or "grace" because it is the closest in context, but a Greek grammar problem makes this not very possible. The fact that the feminine nouns "faith" or "grace" do not match the neuter pronoun "this". Pronouns in Greek should agree with the the nouns they modify. Therefore "this" cannot refer to "faith" or grace" exclusively. Some want "this" to refer back to the verb "saved" but again the antecedent would be a masculine participle. Since the word "this" is neuter we have to conclude that "this" refers back to the whole process of salvation that Paul just described. The process of being saved by grace through faith is ALL a gift from God. THIS whole package deal is not our own doing so as to eliminate human pride and boasting. Therefore grace is a gift from God, being saved is a gift from God, and faith is a gift from God. All of these parts fall under the neuter pronoun "this".

Except, faith is also a true gift, and not something God picks up on our walkway. See Php.1:29, "to you it has been granted (gifted)... to believe in him." Its all a gift, and nothing original with us.


Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


C.(ινα ενδειξηται) God did these things in order to show his immeasurable riches in the coming age (2:7).III. We are saved by grace through faith which is not a product of ourselves or our work, but it is a gift from God (2:8-9).A.(εστε σεσωσμενοι) We are saved by grace through faith (2:8).B.(implied ειμι form) This is not of works (2:9a).C.(ινα καυχησται) This is not from ourselves or our work so that no one may boast(2:9b).IV.We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works (2:10).A.(εσμεν) We are God’s workmanship (2:10a).B.(κτισθεντες) We were created in Christ Jesus to do good works (2:10b).Introduction The Letter to the Ephesians is split into 2 separate portions with distinct themes in each; chapters 1-3 discuss the believer’s position to God specifically in light of Christ and his work, while chapters 4-6 centered on behavior in the Christian life because of that position. Ephesians2:8-10 is part of a larger passage (Eph. 2:1-10), which is in the first section of Ephesians discussing our relationship to God. More particularly, ch. 2:1-10 is discussing our position before salvation, describing the act of salvation, and our position afterward. In verse 1, Paul uses the term “you/we were” using the aorist tense. You were dead in your sin (2:1). But God, because he is rich in mercy, made us alive together with Christ (2:4-5). Then, Paul clarifies how we are saved and what the implications of that salvation are in verse 8-10.A. You are saved by grace through faith (2:8)The first structural marker in this passage is the perfect mid/pass participle εστεσεσωσμενοι and it is paired with the dative χαριτι, best translated with the preposition “by”. I take this dative to be a dative of means, in other words, one might translate this phrase, “it is by means of grace that you are saved.” Paul’s intention is this: that grace is that which saves someone; he goes on to clarify, saying, “through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of


God.” Now, there is much debate regarding the use of τουτο (and
this
is not of yourselves), in this verse;-- it is disagreed upon whether it is referring to faith (δια πιστεως), or the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith. The argument for πιστεως is that it is the closest antecedent in proximity to the pronoun, which is often a deciding factor in determining to what a pronoun refers.

However, pronouns also tend to agree in gender with the words to which they refer(Hendricksen p.122). In this case πιστεως is feminine, and τουτο is neuter.

Which presents a clear stumbling block to those wishing to interpret the sentence this way.

On the other hand, the neuter form is often used to refer back to an entire concept, especially when multiple genders are used in said concept clause (Hoehner p.517). Moreover, the proximity of the concept clause is the same as the proximity of πιστεως to τουτο, and therefore it is preferable to understand τουτοas referring to the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith, and so, the entirety of it is not of ourselves; neither the grace, salvation, or faith find its source in us.

The point of this verse in the passage is to tell us that we cannot rely on ourselves for our salvation, neither by attaining the grace of God (lest it cease to be grace, i.e. unmerited favor),nor by creating within ourselves a faith in God.




(2:9a)Paul continues his idea that our salvation is by his grace to us rather than anything of ourselves from verse 8 into verse 9. This time he specifically adds the mention of works. He uses an implied ειμι form as the structural marker to tell us that “[this is] not of works” This should dispel any rumor or idea that may occur in the believer that he might still have to work in order to be saved. It also carries with it, I think, the idea that even the aforementioned faith (πιστεως) is


not a work of the human flesh or will.
This should bring to remembrance, instead, the work of Christ on the cross. Paul points out that this salvation is not εξ (of/from) works (specifically our works as he previously said “this is not of yourselves”), meaning that it does not find its source in our works. However, it does bring to mind the work of Christ which does secure salvation for us, and this foreshadows the next verse’s use of “workmanship,” in which he contrast our lack of working for salvation with the fact that we ourselves are a work or product of God’s.

No, I am not drawing a line in the sand, we are sharpening each other--that's if you can stand the heat brother.
 
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ChristisGod

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The neuter pronoun "this" may refer to the one of three things: the "grace", the verb "saved" the noun "faith". Some think it refers to "faith" or "grace" because it is the closest in context, but a Greek grammar problem makes this not very possible. The fact that the feminine nouns "faith" or "grace" do not match the neuter pronoun "this". Pronouns in Greek should agree with the the nouns they modify. Therefore "this" cannot refer to "faith" or grace" exclusively. Some want "this" to refer back to the verb "saved" but again the antecedent would be a masculine participle. Since the word "this" is neuter we have to conclude that "this" refers back to the whole process of salvation that Paul just described. The process of being saved by grace through faith is ALL a gift from God. THIS whole package deal is not our own doing so as to eliminate human pride and boasting. Therefore grace is a gift from God, being saved is a gift from God, and faith is a gift from God. All of these parts fall under the neuter pronoun "this".

Except, faith is also a true gift, and not something God picks up on our walkway. See Php.1:29, "to you it has been granted (gifted)... to believe in him." Its all a gift, and nothing original with us.


Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


C.(ινα ενδειξηται) God did these things in order to show his immeasurable riches in the coming age (2:7).III. We are saved by grace through faith which is not a product of ourselves or our work, but it is a gift from God (2:8-9).A.(εστε σεσωσμενοι) We are saved by grace through faith (2:8).B.(implied ειμι form) This is not of works (2:9a).C.(ινα καυχησται) This is not from ourselves or our work so that no one may boast(2:9b).IV.We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works (2:10).A.(εσμεν) We are God’s workmanship (2:10a).B.(κτισθεντες) We were created in Christ Jesus to do good works (2:10b).Introduction The Letter to the Ephesians is split into 2 separate portions with distinct themes in each; chapters 1-3 discuss the believer’s position to God specifically in light of Christ and his work, while chapters 4-6 centered on behavior in the Christian life because of that position. Ephesians2:8-10 is part of a larger passage (Eph. 2:1-10), which is in the first section of Ephesians discussing our relationship to God. More particularly, ch. 2:1-10 is discussing our position before salvation, describing the act of salvation, and our position afterward. In verse 1, Paul uses the term “you/we were” using the aorist tense. You were dead in your sin (2:1). But God, because he is rich in mercy, made us alive together with Christ (2:4-5). Then, Paul clarifies how we are saved and what the implications of that salvation are in verse 8-10.A. You are saved by grace through faith (2:8)The first structural marker in this passage is the perfect mid/pass participle εστεσεσωσμενοι and it is paired with the dative χαριτι, best translated with the preposition “by”. I take this dative to be a dative of means, in other words, one might translate this phrase, “it is by means of grace that you are saved.” Paul’s intention is this: that grace is that which saves someone; he goes on to clarify, saying, “through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is a gift of


God.” Now, there is much debate regarding the use of τουτο (and
this
is not of yourselves), in this verse;-- it is disagreed upon whether it is referring to faith (δια πιστεως), or the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith. The argument for πιστεως is that it is the closest antecedent in proximity to the pronoun, which is often a deciding factor in determining to what a pronoun refers.

However, pronouns also tend to agree in gender with the words to which they refer(Hendricksen p.122). In this case πιστεως is feminine, and τουτο is neuter.

Which presents a clear stumbling block to those wishing to interpret the sentence this way.

On the other hand, the neuter form is often used to refer back to an entire concept, especially when multiple genders are used in said concept clause (Hoehner p.517). Moreover, the proximity of the concept clause is the same as the proximity of πιστεως to τουτο, and therefore it is preferable to understand τουτοas referring to the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith, and so, the entirety of it is not of ourselves; neither the grace, salvation, or faith find its source in us.


The point of this verse in the passage is to tell us that we cannot rely on ourselves for our salvation, neither by attaining the grace of God (lest it cease to be grace, i.e. unmerited favor),nor by creating within ourselves a faith in God.



(2:9a)Paul continues his idea that our salvation is by his grace to us rather than anything of ourselves from verse 8 into verse 9. This time he specifically adds the mention of works. He uses an implied ειμι form as the structural marker to tell us that “[this is] not of works” This should dispel any rumor or idea that may occur in the believer that he might still have to work in order to be saved. It also carries with it, I think, the idea that even the aforementioned faith (πιστεως) is


not a work of the human flesh or will. This should bring to remembrance, instead, the work of Christ on the cross. Paul points out that this salvation is not εξ (of/from) works (specifically our works as he previously said “this is not of yourselves”), meaning that it does not find its source in our works. However, it does bring to mind the work of Christ which does secure salvation for us, and this foreshadows the next verse’s use of “workmanship,” in which he contrast our lack of working for salvation with the fact that we ourselves are a work or product of God’s.

No, I am not drawing a line in the sand, we are sharpening each other--that's if you can stand the heat brother.
Appeal to authority fallacy . I went exclusively with the Greek text alone .

If I quote more sources than you next time that support me does that make me right and you wrong ?
 

VictoryinJesus

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If we are seeking the Joy of others over our own …then are we not seeking Him first? Should we not know that by seeking Him first …out of anothers obtaining Christ …then our own Joy is fulfilled. You reap what you sow. Is it true. If you seek Him first …in another then when He is revealed in them is our Joy made whole? Does the fruit of the Spirit of God in being another feed us as well? Comfort, brotherly love, patience, forgiveness, hope, encouragement…the bond of Love? How can we eat the good fruit of the Spirit when we a jealous some one else might bear the fruit before us? That is starvation of self. Neither eats and is satisfied.
When in not taking our own supper before another … where one goes away hungry and another goes away in drunkenness. If we tend to one another …all are filled of one another. But we covet and steal from another our own first and not His therefore starving our own body …being that one by taking ours first and not seeking His first…we lack adding those things
Luke 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Giving all diligence, add to your faith, virtue
To virtue, knowledge
To knowledge, temperance
To temperance, patience
To patience, godliness
To godliness, brotherly kindness
To brotherly, kindness Charity
If these things be (seemed first) in you …you will not lack of Christ but be filled and fruitful one to another.

2 Peter 1:5-8
 

Eternally Grateful

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It was for the joy set before him that he endured. What was to be gained greater than the loss and despising the shame. You..and me are the joy set before him that he endured …not for himself but so that others be with Him. That joy… Life set before Him. Consider the man who had a guest coming and he had nothing to set before his guest to eat. With how the Father prepared and set before Him the Joy to endure. You. And me. Are we His rejoicing? He didn’t say “But we also need to make sure we will be raised by him when he appears.. I believe many will think they are saved, but will not be, and will be scrambling” but instead to the Pharisees who accused him of tearing it down “I will raise it up” “I will build it New again” no focus on Himself as if he needed saving but confident where he was going seeing the Joy. Why did the Father save Him and call Him “My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” …to me it isn’t because he worried about his own safety …but His sight was set on mine and yours. “That your Joy be made full”
what does this have to do with being saved? What does this have to do with making sure when Jesus comes, You will be resurrected and not left in the grave to be delivered to him at the great white throne judgment?
 

Eternally Grateful

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If we are seeking the Joy of others over our own …then are we not seeking Him first? Should we not know that by seeking Him first …out of anothers obtaining Christ …then our own Joy is fulfilled. You reap what you sow. Is it true. If you seek Him first …in another then when He is revealed in them is our Joy made whole? Does the fruit of the Spirit of God in being another feed us as well? Comfort, brotherly love, patience, forgiveness, hope, encouragement…the bond of Love? How can we eat the good fruit of the Spirit when we a jealous some one else might bear the fruit before us? That is starvation of self. Neither eats and is satisfied.
again, what does this have to do with us being saved? I can seek joy of others all day long. it will not relieve me from the penalty of sin. and make me alive in Christ.

Salvation is a gift. It can not be earned by what we do or do not do.

Let get our salvation first. then we can worry about what comes next. if we are not saved. we are still dead in our sin and still under judgment of God
 

VictoryinJesus

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what does this have to do with being saved? What does this have to do with making sure when Jesus comes, You will be resurrected and not left in the grave to be delivered to him at the great white throne judgment?
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 
J

Johann

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Appeal to authority fallacy . I went exclusively with the Greek text alone .

If I quote more sources than you next time that support me does that make me right and you wrong ?
You went exclusively to Basic Greek re Ephesians 2:8--I appeal to higher authorities and Scholars, unbiased in their exegesis brother--not authority fallacy- I have send you three video clips-you dismissed them.

Like you, I am searching after truth, and guess what, I am never too old to LEARN and always willing to be corrected..

You must be a speed reader, or have not read my posts at all.
Shalom
J.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Yes, that is how we obey the law

But that is not how we are born again, saved. made alive, have the penalty of sin removed.

The most important decision you will make in your life is this one decision. Your eternity depends on it.

You trying to be good. and loving people will not save you..
 

marks

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Appeal to authority fallacy . I went exclusively with the Greek text alone .

If I quote more sources than you next time that support me does that make me right and you wrong ?
From the text alone, there's no neuter gender noun antecedant, but there is a mixed group, which satisfies the antecedant without other disagreeing syntax. The correct reading then is to not pick out one of those non-agreeing nouns, and count that the "gift", but to accept the group as antecedant, as that agrees.

And to be sure, I'm not certain what particular doctrine you are disputing over.

Much love!
 

ChristisGod

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You went exclusively to Basic Greek re Ephesians 2:8--I appeal to higher authorities and Scholars, unbiased in their exegesis brother--not authority fallacy- I have send you three video clips-you dismissed them.

Like you, I am searching after truth, and guess what, I am never too old to LEARN and always willing to be corrected..

You must be a speed reader, or have not read my posts at all.
Shalom
J.
You have really large cut and pastes. It’s not much of a dialogue but posting previous materials which I’ve already read from previous discussions.
 

VictoryinJesus

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again, what does this have to do with us being saved? I can seek joy of others all day long. it will not relieve me from the penalty of sin. and make me alive in Christ.

Salvation is a gift. It can not be earned by what we do or do not do.

Let get our salvation first. then we can worry about what comes next. if we are not saved. we are still dead in our sin and still under judgment of God
look at the Lord’s table…
One goes away hungry, another goes away in drunkenness …in drunkenness is not a good thing to be in. Staggering. Drinking condemnation down unto themselves. Wrath is spoken of on the thread …can you not see drunkenness and stumbling while another goes hungry? Is why so many of you are sick and do sleep? If that isn’t connected to be sober, watch, wake up you who sleep and Christ will give you Light… then how else are they made drunk if not from taking from others who are hungry?
Who is hungry…do you think I mean begging for literal food? No starved by those feeding themselves. (Fat cattle and thin cattle). This is the fast He calls for…what is the fast? Where He says then your Light will shine forth? But what I hear you saying is no, that can’t be enough receiving of and bearing fruit from another? the only way to bear fruit from another is if we have planted first in seeking Him first …is that so wrong? so how does this not all work hand in hand with deliverance from evil?
 
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ChristisGod

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From the text alone, there's no neuter gender noun antecedant, but there is a mixed group, which satisfies the antecedant without other disagreeing syntax. The correct reading then is to not pick out one of those non-agreeing nouns, and count that the "gift", but to accept the group as antecedant, as that agrees.

And to be sure, I'm not certain what particular doctrine you are disputing over.

Much love!
It’s clear from the dialogue since last evening over the past few pages. To much to give a simple answer to that will suffice .
 
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marks

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You have really large cut and pastes. It’s not much of a dialogue but posting previous materials which I’ve already read from previous discussions.
Personally I've found @Johann 's posts very useful. I have a certain level of understanding in Koine Greek, and he has a knack of stringing together various commentary with his own comments that are helpful to me.

Much love!
 

ChristisGod

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Personally I've found @Johann 's posts very useful. I have a certain level of understanding in Koine Greek, and he has a knack of stringing together various commentary with his own comments that are helpful to me.

Much love!
Same here my next door neighbor in an apartment was my pastor in the 80’s who also taught NT Greek and Hebrew in seminary. He taught me one on one for two years basic and intermediate Greek.
 
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