Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Jim B]

And your interpretation suggests that any man could make up doctrine OPPOSITE of the Apostles teaching. Either you are lying to yourself, or some man lied to you and you fell for it.

LOL!!! I am not the one who follows the unScriptural teachings of the Pope, a position that is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture. The Catholic church has lied to you and you are the one who has fallen for the unScriptural teachings.

Obviously you're not aware, Jesus defeated Rome, not vice-versa.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul and Peter did not preach the same identical Gospel....it made no difference....BOTH were initiated by God Himself and both depended upon Jesus....Peter preached the Crucification as a terrible thing that the Jews did to their Messiah and they needed to realize that and Reoent for what they had done....Paul preached that same Crucifixion as the way if Salvation....he claimed to preach NOTHING but “ Christ Crucified”...

actually yes they did, They just came at it from different ways depending on their audience.

 

[Jim B]

Hmmm....So YOU decide who twist Scripture and who doesn't.

And your Protestant men's interpretation of Scripture is not twisted?

Which one? The Baptist? Lutherans? Methodists? They all preach a different "truth". Which one is the "truth"?

Can you not see how your theory doesn't work?

Jesus replied, "I am the way, the truth, and the life". John 14:6 That is as clear as it gets, and no Pope, Catholic doctrine, etc. will ever change that.

 

[Titus]

You can glean that interpretation from the text using past tenses – but the actual Greek text states clearly:
καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

And whatever you bind on earth WILL BE BOUND in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth WILL BE LOOSED in heaven.

You are not an apostle.
The apostles were given limited authority directly told to them from Jesus Himself.
Did God tell you, you have the authority of the apostles?

Acts 2:42,
- and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine.....

All christians followed the apostles doctrine.
That means YOU!

You do not make doctrine and bind those teachings on other christians.
You have no authority from God.
Unfortunately you are not even a christian.

There is no apostolic succession.
When the apostles died the revelation from God died with them.

Jude 3,
- beloved while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which WAS once for all delivered to the saints.

It's done! No more authority from men.
Now all authority from Christ who is the TRUE Head of the church,
Matthew 28:18
Colossians 1:18,
- And Jesus is the Head of the body the church who is the beginning, the first born from the dead, that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE

 

[Grailhunter]

Good thread! I have read through it, not that I have not missed anything. Good exchange of ideas and personal beliefs on various topics.. But I need to offer some corrections.....I am going to focus on the non-Baptism topics first.

One could argue that the Reformation gave Christians back their Bible, but bear this in mind also, gaining back the Bible was a team effort. Not only was the Bible translated into the common tongue, the Bible was given wide distribution by means of the Gutenberg press.

Christians never had a Bible....until the 16th century. Christians heard the Bible and most could not read it even if they had one. The various congregations.....(I say congregations because church buildings did not exist until after edict of Milan.) The various congregations had their own favorite texts. These were not bound and the Gospels at that time did not have titles or chapters and verse numbers. As you noted the copy process was expensive so they were not handing copies out to the congregations. But they did have pamphlets....popular scriptures doodled on a few pages and held together with a single metal ring.

With regard to "unity" we must always remember, that the Bible doesn't recommend unity for its own sake. Rather, the Ecclesia must always be united around a love of the truth, especially the truth of the Gospel. And what better way to foster unity around the truth of the Gospel than to put the Bible into the hands of faithful believers all around the world.

Do you really think that "the people getting" the Bible fostered unity? Sorry history proves just the opposite. The concept of Bible ownership is good...but.... Ever heard that, it is not what you say, but how you say it. In this case it is not only what you do, it is how you do it. And they did it wrong. A lot Protestants do not like the idea of central leadership, but without you have a can of worms. Beliefs going in all directions. They printed the Bible and more and more of the public had their own Bible. So a guy gets a hold of his very own Bible and says.....I can start my own denomination! I know what God is thinking! The Holy Spirit has filled me!

Lots of problems with that.....
1. The Bibles they had were not accurate and they had little knowledge of the languages or time period.
2. No one knows the mind of God and it is dangerous to think you do.....the Catholic Church proved that.
3. The Holy Spirit was apparently saying different things to different denominations....times 30,000 denominations.

So public access to the Bible did not cause unity.

How then is it, that a sinner, who knows nothing about the bible.......no theology......came to God, in Faith, and 2 yrs later, is teaching...>"you have to do works to stay saved"... "you have to not willfully sin to stay saved"....

You have to ....."do.....do......do......do.......do.......do.......do.......do, to stay saved.

Part of the doctrine of the OSAS Coven?
The Bible does not say that you are saved by Good Deeds, Christ said that if you do not help the needy you would go to Hell. Read what happens to the people in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats that do not help those in need. James pointed out, what good is faith without doing Good Deeds.
When the Bible talks about "works" it is talking about observing the Law.
Some believe it is any religious action or ritual......Are there people that believe that a single momentary thought of faith in Christ provides salvation? Are there people that believe that Baptism is optional? Are there people that believe that communion is optional? Are there people that believe that believe that good behavior is optional? Are there people that believe that prayer is optional? Are there people that believe that worshiping God is optional? And lastly....does the Bible say that assembling with Christians is optional?

No where at no point does Scripture EVER say that we are individually is responsible to read and study the Bible ourselves and that we should NEVER take anyone's word for it. Scripture says OPPOSITE of what your men have taught you.

No I think the Bible said that people should study the scriptures online! Ha! Ha! Ha! The Jews studied the Old Testament a lot it was required. In the bibleical period the poor Christians did not have a Bible....so the Bible could not tell them to study the Bible LOL They were lucky if they had few scriptures on pamphlets.

If you think the RCC is the truth then you have been mislead.

And this is the opinion of the Church of.....WHAT!??? Do the Protestants have a better answer, or do they have 30,000 different answers?
The statement is wrong and the thinking is wrong. I am not saying that the Catholic Church is right....I am not saying any of the them are entirely right....Just some more right than others....and they are generally more Protestants. But the Protestants have beliefs that include a license to sin as long as you believe in Christ and that our God is actually a monstrous Puppet master and that Christ was not a God....and you are taking exception to the Catholic Church?!! Glass houses!

 

[Titus]

I did answer your question

No one in the OT was saved by water baptism

No one in the NT is saved by water baptism.

Stop trying to attribute the work of God in spirit baptism to your pastor. And stop teaching faith plus works for salvation

You are mistaken.
I dont believe the things you accuse me.
No, you never gave an answer to why you believe John's baptism is new testament baptism.
I'm still waiting for why you believe that. My guess is that your church doesn't even teach it. It is a statement of ignorance.

I never will believe works of man saves anyone,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast

 

[Titus]

James pointed out, what good is faith without doing Good Deeds.

Faith without works is a dead faith, James 2:20

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are mistaken.
I dont believe the things you accuse me.
No, you never gave an answer to why you believe John's baptism is new testament baptism.

it does not matter, It w3as water baptism. And it was water baptism concerning the comming of the new covenant.

It was not according to the old covenant.

Your question is nonsensical. because it does nto solve the issue.

I'm still waiting for why you believe that. My guess is that your church doesn't even teach it. It is a statement of ignorance.

I never will believe works of man saves anyone,
Ephesians 2:8-9,
- for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast

You will never believe works saves?

yet you preach the WORK of water baptism saves.

You contradict yourself.

 

[Titus]

actually yes they did, They just came at it from different ways depending on their audience.

Two gospels doctrine is err, Eternally Grateful is correct

 

[Grailhunter]

Secondly, contrary to what you might think, Paul did NOT go to Jerusalem in order to receive a decision from a council. He tells you why he went. Primarily, he says, he received the word of life though a revelation, and because it WAS a revelation, he decided to compare his revelation with the original teaching of Christ. And what better resource for that kind of information (as John wrote) than direct eyewitnesses to the teaching and ministry of Jesus.

Paul tells you that he went to see Peter and James in order to compare his teaching with theirs. [Galatians 2:1-6] Paul submitted his gospel to them privately. In Paul's own words he feared that he "had run in vain." The answer came back, no, Paul was not running in vain because "those who were of high reputation . . . contributed nothing to me." In that discussion, Paul explicitly rejects reputation as the basis of authority. "What they were", he says, "makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality." Even here, Paul dismisses the concept of "officialdom" His only interest in the original disciples was their witness, and the question was, "was I running in vain?" That is, how did my alleged revelation from Jesus Christ compare with the eye witness testimony of those who personally walked with Jesus Christ? He tells the Galatians, "those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me."

Define council? It is called the first Christian council. Does history normally go as planned? I am not sure if there were enough people there to call it a council. But either way apparently they decided that a judgement needed to be made and a proclamation sent the churches. This was done by the leader of the Apostles at the time....James.

 

[Titus]

t does not matter, It w3as water baptism. And it was water baptism concerning the comming of the new covenant

Teaching err on any Bible subject matters.
You just admitted indirectly that John's baptism was in the old covenant, the old testament because it was preaching the COMING of the new covenant.

I was recently wrong about what I said to Danthemailman.
Nothing wrong with admitting when you are wrong.
But definitely not right to cover it up or say it doesn't matter.

You will never believe works saves?

yet you preach the WORK of water baptism saves.

You contradict yourself.

What I teach is confusing to you because you are unlearned on the subject of Grace, Faith and Works and how they all are part of Jesus' gospel unto salvation.
As I've already explained to you, there are no works of man in salvation,
Ephesians 2:8-9.
To say no works to be saved as you claim is showing your ignorance of the Scriptures.
Did God do a work on the cross to save you?
I'm pretty sure He did. And all of those who believed and obeyed the gospel have been saved by His work.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Teaching err on any Bible subject matters.
You just admitted indirectly that John's baptism was in the old covenant, the old testament because it was preaching the COMING of the new covenant.

No I did no such thing

I was recently wrong about what I said to Danthemailman.
Nothing wrong with admitting when you are wrong.
But definitely not right to cover it up or say it doesn't matter.
What I teach is confusing to you because you are unlearned on the subject of Grace, Faith and Works and how they all are part of Jesus' gospel unto salvation.
As I've already explained to you, there are no works of man in salvation,
Ephesians 2:8-9.
To say no works to be saved as you claim is showing your ignorance of the Scriptures.
Did God do a work on the cross to save you?
I'm pretty sure He did. And all of those who believed and obeyed the gospel have been saved by His work.

I know what works are. I know that Paul called jews fools because they tried to add circumcision to the gospel of grace and said they taught a false gospel. and should be anathema

That is no different than what you are doing. Both circumcision and water baptism SYMBOLIZE being cleansed of sin.

Paul said we are noty circumcised by the hands of man, but the hand of God. How? through the baptism of the spirit. NOT the baptism of water.

 

[Titus]

That is no different than what you are doing. Both circumcision and water baptism SYMBOLIZE being cleansed of sin

We agree on being under the law of Moses. No one is and if they try they are accursed,
Galatians 3:10,
- for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...
Paul condemns the works of the law of Moses today.
That includes the 10 commandments.
Does that eliminate all works?
No Paul is pro-new testament law!
Galatians 6:2,
- Bear one anothers burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ.
Paul commands we obey the works under the new covenant of Christ. His will and testament

 

[Titus]

No I did no such thing

I know what works are. I know that Paul called jews fools because they tried to add circumcision to the gospel of grace and said they taught a false gospel. and should be anathema

That is no different than what you are doing. Both circumcision and water baptism SYMBOLIZE being cleansed of sin.

Paul said we are noty circumcised by the hands of man, but the hand of God. How? through the baptism of the spirit. NOT the baptism of water.

Love you, Eternally Greatful!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are not an apostle.
The apostles were given limited authority directly told to them from Jesus Himself.
Did God tell you, you have the authority of the apostles?

Acts 2:42,
- and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine.....

All christians followed the apostles doctrine.
That means YOU!

You do not make doctrine and bind those teachings on other christians.
You have no authority from God.
Unfortunately you are not even a christian.
There is no apostolic succession.
When the apostles died the revelation from God died with them.

Jude 3,
- beloved while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which WAS once for all delivered to the saints.

It's done! No more authority from men.
Now all authority from Christ who is the TRUE Head of the church,
Matthew 28:18
Colossians 1:18,
- And Jesus is the Head of the body the church who is the beginning, the first born from the dead, that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE

NOT sure what you’re barking about because I NEVER claimed to have the authority of the Apostles.
Since the Apostles were the first Bishops (Acts 1:20), that is the role of a Bishop.

As to your reference to Jude’s Epistle with regard toi the idea that all truth has already been revealed – where and WHEN did you get your Bible??
Answer: From the Catholic Church who Authoritatively declared the Canon in the 4th century.
It was also the Catholic Church who Authoritatively divided the Bible into Chapter and Verse in the Middle Ages.

As to your presumptuous statement I can NOT a Christian – by whose Authority do you make that claim? The idea that you actually think you can read my heart tells me that YOU don’t know the LORD, who is the ONLY one who knows the hearts of everyone.

 

[Grailhunter]

We agree on being under the law of Moses. No one is and if they try they are accursed,
Galatians 3:10,
- for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...
Paul condemns the works of the law of Moses today.
That includes the 10 commandments.
Does that eliminate all works?
No Paul is pro-new testament law!
Galatians 6:2,
- Bear one anothers burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ.
Paul commands we obey the works under the new covenant of Christ. His will and testament

It is a sin to separate what people think are the Ten Commandments. If you want to be Jew be a Jew. They are accepting applications.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We agree on being under the law of Moses. No one is and if they try they are accursed,
Galatians 3:10,
- for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...
Paul condemns the works of the law of Moses today.
That includes the 10 commandments.
Does that eliminate all works?
No Paul is pro-new testament law!
Galatians 6:2,
- Bear one anothers burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ.
Paul commands we obey the works under the new covenant of Christ. His will and testament

Any work you do which you are doing to save yourself is a work.

Water baptism is a work of righteousness

Giving to the church is a work of Righteousness

etc etc etc

if we are doing these things to get saved, they are filthy rags

if we are doing them because we are saved. Then they bear fruit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can glean that interpretation from the text using past tenses – but the actual Greek text states clearly:
καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

And whatever you bind on earth WILL BE BOUND in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth WILL BE LOOSED in heaven.

The verb "to bind" is a perfect participle, indicating completed action. What the Apostles bind on earth is already bound in heaven.

And I reiterate that NOBODY tells us what to believe.

You don't study the Catechism? You weren't confirmed?

The Church has the role of TEACHING everything Jesus commanded (Matt. 28:19020)

No, the men Jesus chose, the Apostles have the role of teaching everything,

I ALSO reiterate that if we are NOT to have earthly instructors via the Church – then EVERYBODY should believe in the SDAME things. Sooooooo, why DON’T you?

It does not follow that everyone reading a common corpus will have the same interpretation. With regard to this discussion, as I said before, Catholic dogma is just another one of the many interpretations.

Why do Protestants have so many different and sometimes competing doctrines from sect to sect?

Why is Catholic dogma filled with false teaching?

WRONG.
The Greek word used here is απηιεμι (af-ee'-ay-mee), which means: “to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit, to send away”.

Furthermore – Paul writes about this ministry of reconciliation to the Corinthians:
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given Us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

“Entrusting to US””
“WE are ambassadors for Christ
“As if God were appealing through US”
“WE implore YOU”
Paul differentiates between the clergy and the laity here.

I disagree. Jesus entrusted the Apostles with the message of reconciliation. None of the Apostles are alive today, which is why we depend on the scriptures.

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I HAVE FORGIVEN anything, has been FOR you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

Of course. Paul is simply describing the role of an Apostle. But again, there are NO apostles today.

And you’re STILL wrong.
“Episkopay” translates a “Bishopric”, more accurately, “Overseership”.

No. The idea of a Bishopric is not Biblical. So your translation is in error.

As I already explained “Overseer” is the role of a “Bishop”.

So what?

YOU are ascribing confusion to the God of order, which borders on blasphemy.

How so? What do you mean?

Jesus didn’t tell the leaders of His Church to -
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe what they believe I commanded”

He said “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded”
The Kingdom of God is NOT a democracy . . .

So what?

Pleas explain . . .

First of all - -you must blame individuals for any wrongdoing. There are many Bishops and priests who were against any kind of cover-up. YOU blame the faith tradition that is Catholicism for this, I blame individuals,

Secondly, you keep referring to the Catholic Church as if it were simply another denomination.
Protestant groups are denominations of the ONE Church that existed before ALL of them. The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered – and continues to splinter.

Coverup.

 

[Jim B]

The Catholic "church" is simply one of many denominations. There is no mention of the Catholic "church" or "denomination" in the Bible. The first "church" was composed entirely of Jews; Gentiles were admitted later. And arguably, the Orthodox denomination is the oldest.

 

[Jim B]

You can glean that interpretation from the text using past tenses – but the actual Greek text states clearly:
καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

And whatever you bind on earth WILL BE BOUND in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth WILL BE LOOSED in heaven.

And I reiterate that NOBODY tells us what to believe.
The Church has the role of TEACHING everything Jesus commanded (Matt. 28:19020)

I ALSO reiterate that if we are NOT to have earthly instructors via the Church – then EVERYBODY should believe in the SDAME things. Sooooooo, why DON’T you?

Why do Protestants have so many different and sometimes competing doctrines from sect to sect?

WRONG.
The Greek word used here is απηιεμι (af-ee'-ay-mee), which means: “to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit, to send away”.

Furthermore – Paul writes about this ministry of reconciliation to the Corinthians:
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given Us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

“Entrusting to US””
“WE are ambassadors for Christ
“As if God were appealing through US”
“WE implore YOU”
Paul differentiates between the clergy and the laity here.

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I HAVE FORGIVEN anything, has been FOR you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.


And you’re STILL wrong.
“Episkopay” translates a “Bishopric”, more accurately, “Overseership”.

As I already explained “Overseer” is the role of a “Bishop”.

YOU are ascribing confusion to the God of order, which borders on blasphemy.

Jesus didn’t tell the leaders of His Church to -
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe what they believe I commanded”

He said “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded”
The Kingdom of God is NOT a democracy . . .

Pleas explain . . .

First of all - -you must blame individuals for any wrongdoing. There are many Bishops and priests who were against any kind of cover-up. YOU blame the faith tradition that is Catholicism for this, I blame individuals,

Secondly, you keep referring to the Catholic Church as if it were simply another denomination.
Protestant groups are denominations of the ONE Church that existed before ALL of them. The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered – and continues to splinter.

I didn't read all of your post, but read the end. The Catholic "church" is simply another denomination. It is absurd, as I have regularly pointed out, that the Catholic denomination existed before ALL of them. If that were the case, why wouldn't it be mentioned in Scripture? It is a joke to claim that "the Catholic Church is the Original Tree". Revelation, the lase "book" in the New Testament, makes no mention of the Catholic "church" (denomination, etc.) That is just a false statement of Rome (among many others).

Noe read this carefully: Romans killed Jesus. But He was resurrected and defeated Rome!