Post your favorite UR verse for inspection

[Charlie24]

I'm starting this thread in order to respond from the Scripture on the UR verses that are believed to be support for the universal salvation of mankind.

Just post the verse and comment on why you believe it supports the UR. I will be happy to respond.

I'm looking for a respectful conversation on this topic without the bitterness that so often accompanies this argument.

 

[Patrick1966]

I'm starting this thread in order to respond from the Scripture on the UR verses that are believed to be support for the universal salvation of mankind.

Just post the verse and comment on why you believe it supports the UR. I will be happy to respond.

I'm looking for a respectful conversation on this topic without the bitterness that so often accompanies this argument.

 

[Charlie24]

View attachment 30614

LOL, yes, that can be me at times. Maybe all of us who dare to approach the subject.

 

[Patrick1966]

Let's start with this. God is love.

1 John 4:7-21 esv

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

 

[Patrick1966]

It never made sense to me that God would permit his creation, which was made in his image, no less, to fail and to then be punished for ETERNITY. But, the Bible was very clear.

1 John 3:15
English Standard Version
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And then a wonderful Christian brother showed me that the original Greek word aion was mistranslated into "eternal" in most English bibles. Here is an article on the topic here. The Biggest Hole in Hell: Aion, Ages and Eternity - Berean Patriot

And so I was referred to Young's Literal Translation (written in 1898) and so I put in 1 John 3:15 again and got the following translation:

1 John 3:15

Young's Literal Translation

​

15 Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining,

 

[Patrick1966]

Thereafter I saw the plethora of verses affirming salvation for ALL and then I knew that the claim that aion was incorrectly translated into "eternal" was TRUE because if it was NOT true, then ALL of those verses would be INCORRECT and I know (believe) that they are NOT incorrect.

 

[Patrick1966]

Heaven and "Hell" are both temporary holding pens for souls waiting to be physically resurrected in order to join God in his kingdom on the new Earth at the end of the ages.

Faithful Christians (and I presume others) are SAVED from Hell and instead go to Heaven. Everyone else goes to Hell but only for THE AGE.

 

[Charlie24]

Let's start with this. God is love.

1 John 4:7-21 esv

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

We agree that Christ is the Saviour of all men! Where we differ are the Biblical conditions in which He is the Saviour.

I think we will agree that Christ is the only Saviour of the world, Therefore, He stands alone in this world as the only means of salvation.

This is the language John is using, Christ is the Saviour of the world because He is the only means by which we can be saved.

The Scripture makes it clear in several places, that the condition for salvation is believing. Here's just one.

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

These verses cannot be ignored, they must be confronted. Christ can only be the Saviour of those who will believe HIm.

 

[Charlie24]

Heaven and "Hell" are both temporary holding pens for souls waiting to be physically resurrected in order to join God in his kingdom on the new Earth at the end of the ages.

Faithful Christians (and I presume others) are SAVED from Hell and instead go to Heaven. Everyone else goes to Hell but only for THE AGE.

I can't respond to anything else until we come to terms on the verse we are discussing.

 

[Patrick1966]

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

These verses cannot be ignored, they must be confronted. Christ can only be the Saviour of those who will believe HIm.

Yes, Mark 16:16 is correct.

Let me address your belief that Christ can only be the savior of those who believe in him from another direction. You and I are blessed because we have NOT been blinded and we have been given the gift of faith. The ONLY reason that we believe is because God has gifted us with faith. Do you believe that it would be fair to those who have been blinded and who did NOT receive the gift of faith, to be tormented FOREVER? Of course not and neither does God. Again, remember, God is love.

2 Corinthians 4:4
English Standard Version
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
English Standard Version
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

​

 

[Patrick1966]

I can't respond to anything else until we come to terms on the verse we are discussing.

The Bible is clear and you are correct that some people are damned to Hell. Where you and I may differ (I believe) is whether or not it's temporary or permanent.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, Mark 16:16 is correct.

Let me address your belief that Christ can only be the savior of those who believe in him from another direction. You and I are blessed because we have NOT been blinded and we have been given the gift of faith. The ONLY reason that we believe is because God has gifted us with faith. Do you believe that it would be fair to those who have been blinded and who did NOT receive the gift of faith, to be tormented FOREVER? Of course not and neither does God. Again, remember, God is love.

2 Corinthians 4:4​

English Standard Version​

4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

​

​

Ephesians 2:8-9​

English Standard Version​

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

We can't decide what is fair, that power lies in the hand of God. We can only accept His Words and take them for what they are.

The moment we begin to second guess God, we are out of line, we don't have the knowledge to guess at the decisions made by Him.

 

[Patrick1966]

We can't decide what is fair, that power lies in the hand of God. We can only accept His Words and take them for what they are.

The moment we begin to second guess God, we are out of line, we don't have the knowledge to guess at the decisions made by Him.

I think we can DISCERN what is Godly and what isn't, after all, how else are we supposed to discern false teachings without the gift of discernment? But I digress. Let's take it one at a time. :)

 

[Patrick1966]

@Charlie24

I believe the onus is upon you at this point to do your own research on the word aion. Once you understand that it was mistranslated into "forever" and into "everlasting", then you will be converted. :)

 

[Patrick1966]

@Charlie24

As I said, you need to decide for yourself if the word "aion" has been mistranslated into "eternal" and "everlasting". I'll share the following with you but I highly encourage you to look further into it yourself.

The Biggest Hole in Hell: Aion, Ages and Eternity - Berean Patriot

This article is the 2nd part of a 9 part series on Universal Restoration vs Eternal Torment (hell). I recommend reading the introduction first if you haven’t already. (link below) Universal Restoration vs Eternal Torment (hell) introduction The Biggest Hole in Hell: Aion, Ages and Eternity...

www.bereanpatriot.com

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

I believe the onus is upon you at this point to do your own research on the word aion. Once you understand that it was mistranslated into "forever" and into "everlasting", then you will be converted. :)

Ok, let's talk about "aionios." Let's take Matt. 25:46 for example.

Transliteration
aionios;

Pronunciation
ahee-o'-nee-os

Parts of Speech
adj

Root Word (Etymology)
from 165

Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: TDNT 1:208

KJV Translation Count — 71x
The KJV translates Strongs H1 in the following manner: eternal (42), everlasting (25), the world began 5550 (2), since the world began 5550 (1), for ever (1)

Outline of Biblical Usage
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Strong's Definitions
ahee-o'-nee-os; from (165) (αἰών); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): — eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Concordance Results Using KJV
Matt 18:8
WhereG166e if thy hand or thy foot offend G166e, cut G166m off, and cast G166m from G166e: it is better G166 G166e to enter into life halt or maimed, raG166r than having two hands or two feet to be cast into G166 fire.

KJV
Matt 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have G166 life?

KJV
Matt 19:29
And G166y one that hath G166saken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or faG166r, or moG166r, or wife, or children, or lands, G166 my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit G166 life.

KJV
Matt 25:41
G166n shall he say also unto G166m on G166 left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into G166 fire, prepared G166 G166 devil and his angels:

KJV
Matt 25:46
And G166se shall go away into G166 punishment: but G166 righteous into life G166.



Look closely at the bold, Matt. 25:46. Eternal and everlasting are the Greek word "aionios."

You can plainly see that this word is forever with no end. If "aionios" punishment is with an end as you claim, then "aionios" life come to an end also. Eternal life in Matt, 25:46 will not come to an end. This is how we know "aionios" is into infinity.

 

[Patrick1966]

Eternal life in Matt, 25:46 will not come to an end. This is how we know "aionios" is into infinity.

My understanding is that aion CAN mean eternity but it depends on the context.

If people are damned forever, then many Bible verses are incorrect.

 

[Charlie24]

My understanding is that aion CAN mean eternity but it depends on the context.

If people are damned forever, then many Bible verses are incorrect.

That is correct, the context determines if it's an age or into infinity. But Matthew 25:46 puts an end to the discussion.

People are damned forever and I challenge you to prove otherwise!

 

[Patrick1966]

That is correct, the context determines if it's an age or into infinity. But Matthew 25:46 puts an end to the discussion.

People are damned forever and I challenge you to prove otherwise!

Mathew 25:46 is simply saying that the faithful will go to Heaven and the unfaithful will go to Hell for the age. That's literally what it says.

Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

 

[Charlie24]

Mathew 25:46 is simply saying that the faithful will go to Heaven and the unfaithful will go to Hell for the age. That's literally what it says.

Matthew 25:46​

Young's Literal Translation​

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

Matthew 25:46 is saying "into infinity punishment" as clearly seen in my post.

You can deny it, that's ok, but that doesn't change the fact of "aionios" punishment being without an end.