The song of Mary- an unorthodox perspective

[Raccoon1010]

Are you suggesting Mary was NOT a Ha Almah when she "had Yeshua?"

Speak english Johann. Why are you quoting me in there?

 

[Raccoon1010]

As I understand it, yes, he is saying Jesus was not virgin born.


And that in fact, that this is a Satanic deception.

Much love!

Yes that would be strange.

 

[Waiting on him]

As I understand it, yes, he is saying Jesus was not virgin born.


And that in fact, that this is a Satanic deception.

Much love!

Well, Jesus was uniquely born. John the Baptist witnessed it right there in the river Jordan.

 

[Waiting on him]

Here is a question to ponder, if Jesus was born of God in the womb of Mary, then why did he receive the Holy Spirit in the Jordan?

 

[Waiting on him]

You guys do realize what it means too be born of God?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Here is a question to ponder, if Jesus was born of God in the womb of Mary, then why did he receive the Holy Spirit in the Jordan?

The bible teaches that Jesus was created with God's Holy Spirit. It also teaches that the Holy Spirit testified that Jesus was God's son when he was baptized. I'm not sure what a Christian is called that doesn't believe the bible.

 

[Mr E]

So why do you need me?

Where did you get that crazy idea from?

For you specifically and everyone in general-pleas reread my opening posts describing what this thread is about -and what to do if you find it upsetting.

 

[Mr E]

The bible teaches that Jesus was created with God's Holy Spirit. It also teaches that the Holy Spirit testified that Jesus was God's son when he was baptized. I'm not sure what a Christian is called that doesn't believe the bible.

dev- do you understand the duplicity of thought that I’m pointing at?

You say the Bible teaches ‘xyz’ but you would have difficulty finding that written explicitly in scripture. Conversely- I’m highlighting something that is written explicitly (Joseph being the father of Jesus— see Matthew) and YOU don’t believe it.

What do you call a Christian who doesn’t believe the Bible? —- common.

Most Christians only believe certain parts of it.

 

[Johann]

For you specifically and everyone in general-pleas reread my opening posts describing what this thread is about -and what to do if you find it upsetting.

There's nothing you can do to upset me @Mr E again, the rabbis knows the scriptures better than yourself.
But I shall disengage since it is painfully obvious you are casting doubts on my Bible as it stands written, Perfect Tense--and don't know how to rebut or refute the rabbis WITH Scriptures

Should you need me I am just an sms away----Isaiah 53--who is the suffering servant?
YisraEL or Yeshua?

I'd like to hear your answer on this.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Speak english Johann. Why are you quoting me in there?

My apologies dev---Mary was a virgin yes?

 

[Johann]

That’s right, also the account in Isaiah of the virgin birth has nothing to do with Jesus. The account Isaiah gave was pertaining to the 8th century BC. The northern and southern kingdoms weren’t at war in the first century. I’d go further and suggest Joseph Caiaphus was John the Baptist baby daddy also.

I believe you are in error--

Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)

Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son; this is not to be understood of Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, by his wife, as some Jewish writers interpret it; which interpretation Jarchi refutes, by observing that Hezekiah was nine years old when his father began to reign, and this being, as he says, the fourth year of his reign, he must be at this time thirteen years of age; in like manner, Aben Ezra and Kimchi object to it; and besides, his mother could not be called a "virgin": and for the same reason it cannot be understood of any other son of his either by his wife, as Kimchi thinks, or by some young woman; moreover, no other son of his was ever lord of Judea, as this Immanuel is represented to be, in Isa_8:8 nor can it be interpreted of Isaiah's wife and son, as Aben Ezra and Jarchi think; since the prophet could never call her a "virgin", who had bore him children, one of which was now with him; nor indeed a "young woman", but rather "the prophetess", as in Isa_8:3 nor was any son of his king of Judah, as this appears to be, in the place before cited:

but the Messiah is here meant, who was to be born of a pure virgin; as the word here used signifies in all places where it is mentioned, as Gen_24:43 and even in Pro_30:19 which is the instance the Jews give of the word being used of a woman corrupted; since it does not appear that the maid and the adulterous woman are one and the same person; and if they were, she might, though vitiated, be called a maid or virgin, from her own profession of herself, or as she appeared to others who knew her not, or as she was antecedent to her defilement; which is no unusual thing in Scripture, see Deu_22:28 to which may be added, that not only the Evangelist Matthew renders the word by παρθενος, "a virgin"; but the Septuagint interpreters, who were Jews, so rendered the word hundreds of years before him; and best agrees with the Hebrew word, which comes from the root עלם, which signifies to "hide" or "cover"; virgins being covered and unknown to men; and in the eastern country were usually kept recluse, and were shut up from the public company and conversation of men: and now this was the sign that was to be given, and a miraculous one it was, that the Messiah should be born of a pure and incorrupt virgin; and therefore a "behold" is prefixed to it, as a note of admiration; and what else could be this sign or wonder? not surely that a young married woman, either Ahaz's or Isaiah's wife, should be with child, which is nothing surprising, and of which there are repeated instances every day; nor was it that the young woman was unfit for conception at the time of the prophecy, which was the fancy of some, as Jarchi reports, since no such intimation is given either in the text or context; nor did it lie in this, that it was a male child, and not a female, which was predicted, as R. Saadiah Gaon, in Aben Ezra, would have it; for the sign or wonder does not lie in the truth of the prophet's prediction, but in the greatness of the thing predicted; besides, the verification of this would not have given the prophet much credit, nor Ahaz and the house of David much comfort, since this might have been ascribed rather to a happy conjecture than to a spirit of prophecy; much less can the wonder be, that this child should eat butter and honey, as soon as it was born, as Aben Ezra and Kimchi suggest; since nothing is more natural to, and common with young children, than to take down any kind of liquids which are sweet and pleasant.

Gen_3:15; Jer_31:22; Mat_1:23; Luk_1:35
or, thou, O virgin
Gen_4:1-2, Gen_4:25, Gen_16:11, Gen_29:32, Gen_30:6, Gen_30:8; 1Sa_1:20, 1Sa_4:21
Immanuel: Isa_8:8, Isa_9:6; Joh_1:1-2, Joh_1:14; Rom_9:5; 1Ti_3:16

The account in Isaiah 53 is about Yeshua and not YisraEL

I have decided, as from today, that I'm not going to name my sources, since no one is interested in links or sources.

Do you believe in the virgin birth of Yeshua?

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe you are in error--

Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)

Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son; this is not to be understood of Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, by his wife, as some Jewish writers interpret it; which interpretation Jarchi refutes, by observing that Hezekiah was nine years old when his father began to reign, and this being, as he says, the fourth year of his reign, he must be at this time thirteen years of age; in like manner, Aben Ezra and Kimchi object to it; and besides, his mother could not be called a "virgin": and for the same reason it cannot be understood of any other son of his either by his wife, as Kimchi thinks, or by some young woman; moreover, no other son of his was ever lord of Judea, as this Immanuel is represented to be, in Isa_8:8 nor can it be interpreted of Isaiah's wife and son, as Aben Ezra and Jarchi think; since the prophet could never call her a "virgin", who had bore him children, one of which was now with him; nor indeed a "young woman", but rather "the prophetess", as in Isa_8:3 nor was any son of his king of Judah, as this appears to be, in the place before cited:

but the Messiah is here meant, who was to be born of a pure virgin; as the word here used signifies in all places where it is mentioned, as Gen_24:43 and even in Pro_30:19 which is the instance the Jews give of the word being used of a woman corrupted; since it does not appear that the maid and the adulterous woman are one and the same person; and if they were, she might, though vitiated, be called a maid or virgin, from her own profession of herself, or as she appeared to others who knew her not, or as she was antecedent to her defilement; which is no unusual thing in Scripture, see Deu_22:28 to which may be added, that not only the Evangelist Matthew renders the word by παρθενος, "a virgin"; but the Septuagint interpreters, who were Jews, so rendered the word hundreds of years before him; and best agrees with the Hebrew word, which comes from the root עלם, which signifies to "hide" or "cover"; virgins being covered and unknown to men; and in the eastern country were usually kept recluse, and were shut up from the public company and conversation of men: and now this was the sign that was to be given, and a miraculous one it was, that the Messiah should be born of a pure and incorrupt virgin; and therefore a "behold" is prefixed to it, as a note of admiration; and what else could be this sign or wonder? not surely that a young married woman, either Ahaz's or Isaiah's wife, should be with child, which is nothing surprising, and of which there are repeated instances every day; nor was it that the young woman was unfit for conception at the time of the prophecy, which was the fancy of some, as Jarchi reports, since no such intimation is given either in the text or context; nor did it lie in this, that it was a male child, and not a female, which was predicted, as R. Saadiah Gaon, in Aben Ezra, would have it; for the sign or wonder does not lie in the truth of the prophet's prediction, but in the greatness of the thing predicted; besides, the verification of this would not have given the prophet much credit, nor Ahaz and the house of David much comfort, since this might have been ascribed rather to a happy conjecture than to a spirit of prophecy; much less can the wonder be, that this child should eat butter and honey, as soon as it was born, as Aben Ezra and Kimchi suggest; since nothing is more natural to, and common with young children, than to take down any kind of liquids which are sweet and pleasant.

Gen_3:15; Jer_31:22; Mat_1:23; Luk_1:35
or, thou, O virgin
Gen_4:1-2, Gen_4:25, Gen_16:11, Gen_29:32, Gen_30:6, Gen_30:8; 1Sa_1:20, 1Sa_4:21
Immanuel: Isa_8:8, Isa_9:6; Joh_1:1-2, Joh_1:14; Rom_9:5; 1Ti_3:16

The account in Isaiah 53 is about Yeshua and not YisraEL

I have decided, as from today, that I'm not going to name my sources, since no one is interested in links or sources.

Do you believe in the virgin birth of Yeshua?

I do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but maybe not as you believe?
Do you believe that Jesus was in dwelt with the Spirit of God prior to his baptism in the Jordan?

 

[Johann]

Jesus was in dwelt with the Spirit of God prior to his baptism

And the Ruach [Hakodesh] of Hashem shall rest upon Him, the Ruach of Chochmah and Binah, the Ruach of Etzah (Counsel [see Isaiah 9:5) and Gevurah, the Ruach of Da'as and of the Yir'at Hashem;

And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

Christ was filled with the Spirit from the womb, and he descended and rested upon him at his baptism; he was anointed with him to be Prophet, Priest, and King, and received his gifts and graces from him without measure,......

Rest - permanently; not merely come upon Him (Num_11:25-26).

nûach
BDB Definition:
1) to rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to rest, settle down and remain
1a2) to repose, have rest, be quiet
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to cause to rest, give rest to, make quiet
1b2) to cause to rest, cause to alight, set down
1b3) to lay or set down, deposit, let lie, place
1b4) to let remain, leave
1b5) to leave, depart from
1b6) to abandon
1b7) to permit
1c) (Hophal)
1c1) to obtain rest, be granted rest
1c2) to be left, be placed
1c3) open space (substantive)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

How do you read?

 

[Waiting on him]

And the Ruach [Hakodesh] of Hashem shall rest upon Him, the Ruach of Chochmah and Binah, the Ruach of Etzah (Counsel [see Isaiah 9:5) and Gevurah, the Ruach of Da'as and of the Yir'at Hashem;

And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

Christ was filled with the Spirit from the womb, and he descended and rested upon him at his baptism; he was anointed with him to be Prophet, Priest, and King, and received his gifts and graces from him without measure,......

Rest - permanently; not merely come upon Him (Num_11:25-26).

nûach
BDB Definition:
1) to rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to rest, settle down and remain
1a2) to repose, have rest, be quiet
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to cause to rest, give rest to, make quiet
1b2) to cause to rest, cause to alight, set down
1b3) to lay or set down, deposit, let lie, place
1b4) to let remain, leave
1b5) to leave, depart from
1b6) to abandon
1b7) to permit
1c) (Hophal)
1c1) to obtain rest, be granted rest
1c2) to be left, be placed
1c3) open space (substantive)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

How do you read?

How do I read it?
I read the New Testament as truth, and John gave an account he saw the Spirt as a dove descends from above and abode on him,and the bridegroom spoke according to John.

What did the bridegroom say Joe?

 

[Johann]

I do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but maybe not as you believe?
Do you believe that Jesus was in dwelt with the Spirit of God prior to his baptism in the Jordan?

I believe "differently" as you in the virgin birth of Christ Jesus?
Here is a question--do you believe Jesus was just a Man? Huios ben David--huios of man?
And why would you say in the Isaiah account that the virgin birth is NOT about Jesus?

Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Lastly, what's up with all the questions?

 

[Waiting on him]

do you believe Jesus was just a Man? Huios ben David--huios of man?

Of course Jesus was a man, though not just any man.

And why would you say in the Isaiah account that the virgin birth is NOT about Jesus?

How do you tie this too the first century?

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[Johann]

How do you tie this too the first century?

To whom was Isaiah referring to?

 

[Waiting on him]

Herod Antipas ruled through Jesus’s ministry.

 

[Waiting on him]

To whom was Isaiah referring to?

That’s my question to you the scripture you presented said there were two kings. So who are the two kings during Jesus’s time?

 

[Waiting on him]

To whom was Isaiah referring to?

Shall be forsaken of both her kings?