What is "Parousia"?

[amigo de christo]

This watchtower teaching is so wrong on so many levels.

Teh word in REv. for see is "optomai" and in the Greek only means to visibly see.

Parousia does mean presence but for the rest of the definition it means either a proximate presence (by your side) or relative presence) somewhere near)

IN MAtt. 24 Jesus said that His return will be liek the lightening flashing! that is not an invisible but very visible sign.

Jesus even warned people about those who teach Jesus has returned and is in the "secret chambers" (returned but secretly).

Splain that to the one world religoin in Jerusalem which has its key members hollering JESUS , muhammed and MOSES
are all dancing under the temple mount for world peace and unity . WHAT A CROCK OF DUNG that lie s .
A , JESUS Did warn us not to beleive he had returned and HOW it would be like .
And B , JESUS would not nor will not dance beside a false demon like muhammed . A bit rough , BUT VERY TRUE .
MUHAMMED followed satan not GOD . and hold not thy breath for an apology on that either .
THIS lamb dont follow this all inclusive funny biz , and say muslims follow GOD too . CAUSE THAT IS A LIE
from the serpent . PEROID .

 

[amigo de christo]

In case some have not figured it out , I AINT all inclusive and i do refuse to follow this false lovey many path lie to GOD .
To all i say , dont hold your breath waiting for me to apologize or join it .

 

[rwb]

The body dies for the soul departs to the LORD . That is correct . Our soul wont taste it we go home with THE KING .
THERE is a generation , however that wont die , their own bodies will instantly be transformed .
Those who are HIS and still here on earth at HIS COMING .
As for paul , stephen and many others they too waited for His coming . But this indeed is that generation
that will in an instant be changed , wont be buried , their bodies wont even be here as were pauls and others who
went on to be with the LORD . NO these bodies will be changed INSTANTLY , for those who were still walking and breathing
AT HIS COMING . THERE IS another event which has yet to occur . MANY through all generations
waited for it . THEY DiD wait for HIS COMING . But this gen GETS TOO SEE IT .
THE SIGNS have SWOLLEN FULL and the TIME IS AT HAND . BUT WOE to those who are not HIS on thatday .
THEY GO UNDER the WRATH OF GOD . those are the beast and those who followed it .
The wrath of man and of the beast cometh against the saints , but the wrath of GOD cometh against the beast and those
who followed it .

Yes, I agree. Every believer still alive when the Lord returns the second time will in the twinkling of an eye be changed from mortal, corruptible bodies of death to immortal, incorruptible bodies fit for eternity on the new earth. It is in this manner that death is swallowed up in victory. How is death swallowed up in victory if mortal body becoming immortal is not putting to death that which is destined to die? Death, which is what the mortal body of all mankind is destined to, is done away when the body of those alive at the coming of Christ is instantly given a body changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. This is how death is swallowed up in victory!

1 Corinthians 15:54 (KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[David in NJ]

Only for Christians, for those called to share in Jesus' inheritance, as his bride. The rest of mankind, especially those that have never heard of God (YHVH) and Jesus during their lives, are not abandoned by God - they will have opportunity for eternal life during the 1,000 year reign (they're who Christ and his bride reign over!). God "desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth" (1Ti 2:4), for "God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1Ti 4:10). 1 John 4:14 (WEB):

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I agree. Every believer still alive when the Lord returns the second time will in the twinkling of an eye be changed from mortal, corruptible bodies of death to immortal, incorruptible bodies fit for eternity on the new earth. It is in this manner that death is swallowed up in victory. How is death swallowed up in victory if mortal body becoming immortal is not putting to death that which is destined to die? Death, which is what the mortal body of all mankind is destined to, is done away when the body of those alive at the coming of Christ is instantly given a body changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. This is how death is swallowed up in victory!

1 Corinthians 15:54 (KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You ask: How is death swallowed up in victory if mortal body becoming immortal is not putting to death that which is destined to die?

SIMPLE TRUTH = Death is Swallowed UP by LIFE = JESUS is Everlasting LIFE = our mortal body will not die IT TRANSFORMS

SIMPLE TRUTH = "this mortal must PUT ON immortality" = Death is Swallowed UP in TRANSFORMATION into Glorified Bodies

When you stop adding your words to scripture it is EASY to SEE

 

[rwb]

You ask: How is death swallowed up in victory if mortal body becoming immortal is not putting to death that which is destined to die?

SIMPLE TRUTH = Death is Swallowed UP by LIFE = JESUS is Everlasting LIFE = our mortal body will not die IT TRANSFORMS

SIMPLE TRUTH = "this mortal must PUT ON immortality" = Death is Swallowed UP in TRANSFORMATION into Glorified Bodies

When you stop adding your words to scripture it is EASY to SEE

Yes, and as I quoted the Scripture DEATH is swallowed up in victory when the mortal, corruptible body has been raised up and changed to immortal and incorruptible when the last trump sounds. Until this mortal is given immortal and incorruptible bodies he/she is still destined to death. We don't put on immortality and incorruptible bodies, Christ must put on immortality and incorruption to give us victory over death.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[rwb]

When you stop adding your words to scripture it is EASY to SEE

When you are no longer locked in unbelief and stop trying to force the Bible to support unbiblical doctrines then maybe God will grant you knowledge of truth.

 

[David in NJ]

When you are no longer locked in unbelief and stop trying to force the Bible to support unbiblical doctrines then maybe God will grant you knowledge of truth.

You still cannot SEE - lol

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, and as I quoted the Scripture DEATH is swallowed up in victory when the mortal, corruptible body has been raised up and changed to immortal and incorruptible when the last trump sounds. Until this mortal is given immortal and incorruptible bodies he/she is still destined to death. We don't put on immortality and incorruptible bodies, Christ must put on immortality and incorruption to give us victory over death.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

CHRIST has IMMORTALITY

"Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Revelation ch1

 

[rwb]

CHRIST has IMMORTALITY

"Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Revelation ch1

Which is why He must take away our mortal flesh and put on believers immortal and incorruptible bodies so that believers shall be like Him. Just as Christ overcame physical death by His bodily resurrection, to never die again, so too He rids believers of bodies of death, replacing them with immortal and incorruptible bodies to live forever with Him on the new earth. Death is swallowed up in victory because our new immortal, and incorruptible bodies indwelt with our eternal spirit shall never again suffer death.

 

[David in NJ]

Which is why He must take away our mortal flesh and put on believers immortal and incorruptible bodies so that believers shall be like Him. Just as Christ overcame physical death by His bodily resurrection, to never die again, so too He rids believers of bodies of death, replacing them with immortal and incorruptible bodies to live forever with Him on the new earth. Death is swallowed up in victory because our new immortal, and incorruptible bodies indwelt with our eternal spirit shall never again suffer death.

You are 100% correct and in harmony with Scripture when you said: "Until this mortal is given immortal and incorruptible bodies he/she is still destined to death."
100% correct that this present mortal flesh must be replaced = 100% TRUE

When Christ Returns for His Elect the Death Sentence is Overturned because ETERNAL LIFE/Resurrection has ARRIVED.

CHRIST will first resurrect the dead in Him = dead bodies in the grave will wake UP, then RISE UP being TRANSFORMED.

Now since the Resurrection of the dead takes place First - what will happen to those alive at His Coming?

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep/die, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


Those of us, alive at His Coming, will not experience death because CHRIST will Transform our mortal Body into His Glorious Likeness without us ever having to die.

There is no need for the living to die at His Coming since HE will Transform our mortal body into a Glorious immortal one.

Peace

 

[keithr]

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Revelation 14:6-7 (WEB):

(6) I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.​

(7) He said with a loud voice, “Fear the Lord, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and the springs of waters!”​

 

[keithr]

LORD Jesus is the Savior/YHWH of all men who believe on HIM = John 3:16

Which is why I wrote in post #188 - "opportunity to have eternal life, by believing in God and Jesus, and to become perfect humans during Christ's 1,000 year reign". That is the purpose of being resurrected, so that they may come to believe and be perfected, and to gain eternal life. They are not resurrected and allowed to live a longer life of 1,000 years just so that they can die again (the second death). It is God's way of saving as many people as He can. 2 Peter 3:8-9 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

If a man/woman rejects CHRIST all the way to the grave, then they will never be saved = John 3:18

John 3:18 (WEB):

(18) He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

That is not what verse 18 means. It means that if you don't believe in God and believe "in the name of the one and only Son of God", then you are still under condemnation of sin. It does not mean that you will never be saved.

Romans 5:18-21 (WEB):

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

(19) For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.​

(20) The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly;​

(21) that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

If a person claims to know Him but does not "bow the knee, the heart and confess that Jesus is LORD" - then no Entrance into His Kingdom.

Yes, that is correct (except that it is Lord not LORD/YHVH). But for Christians our trial and time to believe is now, but for the rest of mankind their trial and time to believe is during the 1,000 year reign of Christ - the last day. John 12:48 (WEB):

(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.​

 

[David in NJ]

Which is why I wrote in post #188 - "opportunity to have eternal life, by believing in God and Jesus, and to become perfect humans during Christ's 1,000 year reign". That is the purpose of being resurrected, so that they may come to believe and be perfected, and to gain eternal life. They are not resurrected and allowed to live a longer life of 1,000 years just so that they can die again (the second death). It is God's way of saving as many people as He can. 2 Peter 3:8-9 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

John 3:18 (WEB):

(18) He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

That is not what verse 18 means. It means that if you don't believe in God and believe "in the name of the one and only Son of God", then you are still under condemnation of sin. It does not mean that you will never be saved.

Romans 5:18-21 (WEB):

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

(19) For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.​

(20) The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly;​

(21) that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Yes, that is correct (except that it is Lord not LORD/YHVH). But for Christians our trial and time to believe is now, but for the rest of mankind their trial and time to believe is during the 1,000 year reign of Christ - the last day. John 12:48 (WEB):

(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.​

There are TWO Resurrections.

The FIRST Resurrection is for all who believed the WORD that was God, since the Beginning of Creation.

Only these Saints have eternal life and the Second Death has no power over them.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev ch20

 

[rwb]

You are 100% correct and in harmony with Scripture when you said: "Until this mortal is given immortal and incorruptible bodies he/she is still destined to death."
100% correct that this present mortal flesh must be replaced = 100% TRUE

When Christ Returns for His Elect the Death Sentence is Overturned because ETERNAL LIFE/Resurrection has ARRIVED.

CHRIST will first resurrect the dead in Him = dead bodies in the grave will wake UP, then RISE UP being TRANSFORMED.

Now since the Resurrection of the dead takes place First - what will happen to those alive at His Coming?

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep/die, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


Those of us, alive at His Coming, will not experience death because CHRIST will Transform our mortal Body into His Glorious Likeness without us ever having to die.

There is no need for the living to die at His Coming since HE will Transform our mortal body into a Glorious immortal one.

Peace

What you fail to understand is that there cannot be contradictions found in Scripture. The Word is clear all mortal men are appointed to die once before the Judgment. You can spin this FACT any way you wish, but that does not mean that mortal men still physically alive when Christ comes the second time never die! That is you trying to force your unbiblical doctrine to fit into the Word of God.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Since without exception it is appointed unto men once to die, those still alive when Christ comes again can only become immortal and incorruptible bodies through death of their mortal flesh. If this is not true then the Word of God cannot be trusted because it is found to be contradictory. The Word NEVER contradicts, and if you force an apparent contradiction into the Word, your doctrine is proven wrong!

 

[keithr]

Only these Saints have eternal life and the Second Death has no power over them.

Only the saints will have immortal life (which is why they cannot die a second death); the rest of mankind that come to believe and be perfected during the 1,000 year reign will have eternal life, meaning that they will be mortal, so they can die, but God will ensure that they do not die, just like angels are mortal but will live forever (except Satan and his fallen angels).

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The rest of the dead being non-Christians who are resurrected in the second resurrection at the beginning of the 1,000 years reign, and they will not live (have eternal life) until they pass the final test at the end of the 1,000 years. Those that fail the test will be condemned to the second death - a permanent death with no hope of another resurrection.

 

[rwb]

There are TWO Resurrections.

The FIRST Resurrection is for all who believed the WORD that was God, since the Beginning of Creation.

Only these Saints have eternal life and the Second Death has no power over them.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev ch20

The Scripture speaks of a first resurrection that man must have part of to overcome the second death. The first resurrection is what man must have part of in TIME while he/she lives on this earth. The first resurrection is spiritual when we are made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. A thousand years equate to TIME. The other resurrection the Bible plainly speaks of is the physical, bodily resurrection of all humanity where every human will be bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds in an hour that is coming. Man will be physically raised to immortality, and incorruption called resurrection to life, or man will be resurrected to condemnation of eternal death in the lake of fire.

All who have part in the first resurrection in TIME, symbolized a thousand years overcome the second death. John mentions not only those who had been martyred for their faith, but also those John calls blessed and holy who shall reign with Christ in TIME, have part in the first resurrection during TIME also. Both the martyred and those who shall be saved during their lives on earth are of the first resurrection who will be immortal and incorruptible at His coming again.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Which is why I wrote in post #188 - "opportunity to have eternal life, by believing in God and Jesus, and to become perfect humans during Christ's 1,000 year reign". That is the purpose of being resurrected, so that they may come to believe and be perfected, and to gain eternal life. They are not resurrected and allowed to live a longer life of 1,000 years just so that they can die again (the second death). It is God's way of saving as many people as He can. 2 Peter 3:8-9 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

John 3:18 (WEB):

(18) He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

That is not what verse 18 means. It means that if you don't believe in God and believe "in the name of the one and only Son of God", then you are still under condemnation of sin. It does not mean that you will never be saved.

Romans 5:18-21 (WEB):

(18) So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.​

(19) For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.​

(20) The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly;​

(21) that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Yes, that is correct (except that it is Lord not LORD/YHVH). But for Christians our trial and time to believe is now, but for the rest of mankind their trial and time to believe is during the 1,000 year reign of Christ - the last day. John 12:48 (WEB):

(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.​

When the seventh angel begins to sound time given this earth for proclaiming the Gospel of Christ unto all the world shall be no longer. That means there will NOT be another one thousand years of more time given to this earth for man to obtain eternal life through Christ.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The purpose for the bodily resurrection of the saints is to change our mortal, corruptible bodies destined to die into immortal and incorruptible bodies fit for everlasting life on the new earth. God does not have two separate salvation plans through Christ for mankind. Today, that is NOW, while time still exists, is the day for salvation. The man who dies in this age of time without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is without hope. He/she will not be given a second chance for another one thousand years to be eternally saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Splain that to the one world religoin in Jerusalem which has its key members hollering JESUS , muhammed and MOSES
are all dancing under the temple mount for world peace and unity . WHAT A CROCK OF DUNG that lie s .
A , JESUS Did warn us not to beleive he had returned and HOW it would be like .
And B , JESUS would not nor will not dance beside a false demon like muhammed . A bit rough , BUT VERY TRUE .
MUHAMMED followed satan not GOD . and hold not thy breath for an apology on that either .
THIS lamb dont follow this all inclusive funny biz , and say muslims follow GOD too . CAUSE THAT IS A LIE
from the serpent . PEROID .

That is all the worlds religion and has nothing to do with the followers of Jesus. If we study to show ourselves approved, we will not fall prey to the so reasonably sounding lies of the world.

 

[David in NJ]

What you fail to understand is that there cannot be contradictions found in Scripture. The Word is clear all mortal men are appointed to die once before the Judgment. You can spin this FACT any way you wish, but that does not mean that mortal men still physically alive when Christ comes the second time never die! That is you trying to force your unbiblical doctrine to fit into the Word of God.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Since without exception it is appointed unto men once to die, those still alive when Christ comes again can only become immortal and incorruptible bodies through death of their mortal flesh. If this is not true then the Word of God cannot be trusted because it is found to be contradictory. The Word NEVER contradicts, and if you force an apparent contradiction into the Word, your doctrine is proven wrong!

There is no contradiction in Scripture.

Currently you are focusing on 'death' = Heb 9:27

You are forcing Heb 9:27 upon Heb 9:28 = this is the conflict you have created.

The LORD Jesus has the Power over death = HE is the Resurrection and in HIM is Eternal Life.

For now, death will continue until HIS Return which is the Resurrection of the dead in Him and the Rapture of living Saints.

There is no contradiction in Scripture.