Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Johann]

You've written a lot of theory, so what about the practise?

If you mean waiting on God to stop us from lust and sinning, then I disagree. Jesus resisted all temptation all His life with the Father, and we must do the same with the Son and the Father.

If you mean being patient in the Lord, while doing our part with Him to cleanse ourselves of filthiness spiritually and physically, then I agree.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23:26)

Jesus commands us to do our part for our sanctification, even as He did.

If you mean we are to quietly bide our time while lusting and vainly imagining things, until God comes to slap it away, then I disagree again.

If you mean we are to cast down all such stinking thinking of the devil, by help of His power and grace, then I agree again.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. (2 Cor 10:4)

We are to keep our hearts and minds clean from lusting and envying with the world, so that we can be sanctified and clean in righteous and holy living.

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

If you mean we are to do our part with the Lord, to make our election sure, so that we never fall, then I abundantly agree.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)

If quietism is the passivism of not adding and doing those things necessary to ensure we don't fall into sin and temptation again, then it's a lukewarm recipe for those that don't want to do their necessary work not to fall, They quietly go on with two hearts, rather than singleness of heart in Christ.


We're not to sanctify our lives according to our own standard of holiness. Neither do we try to be sanctified nor to live holy. We are sanctified and cleansed and made holy in purity of heart, soul, spirit, and life, the very moment we are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus. He sanctifies us wholly first, then with Him we keep ourselves sanctified according to His holiness. God's standard of holiness is found in His word and law of Christ.

Our work of faith and part in being saved, is to keep ourselves sanctified that way, and not allow the lust of the world to be in us, and the works of the flesh to be done by us.

We don't forgive, save, nor justify ourselves from our past lives, which only God can do by faith in Jesus Christ. But we are to keep ourselves saved, justified, and forgiven by keeping ourselves clean and holy and pure for His name's sake.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

We don't clean ourselves up to be acceptable to God, but we do keep ourselves clean as He has made us clean, to remain acceptable to God. What we only can do for our past life, we continue to do for the present.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Once forgiven, saved, cleansed, justified and sanctified by Christ, we keep cleaning our new man and house in fellowship with Him. We don't clean up our house to our standards, and then open the door to Him, but when we do open the door to Him, He enters making all things clean and new by His Light and Spirit. We then keep it that way with Him in the fellowship of His Light and Spirit.

We repent, He saves, and we live clean of sin with Him. Simple.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

Brother, I see that you are a new member here, welcome.
One thing though, read my posts carefully BEFORE answering.
J.

 

[Johann]

We're not to sanctify our lives according to our own standard of holiness.

We're not to sanctify our lives according to our own standard of holiness.

Neither do we try to be sanctified nor to live holy. We are sanctified and cleansed and made holy in purity of heart, soul, spirit, and life, the very moment we are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus.

He sanctifies us wholly first, then with Him we keep ourselves sanctified according to His holiness. God's standard of holiness is found in His word and law of Christ.

Our work of faith and part in being saved, is to keep ourselves sanctified that way, and not allow the lust of the world to be in us, and the works of the flesh to be done by us.

I have already answered your question
J.

 

[Johann]

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

So, according to you, we "assist" God in saving us, right?

 

[Kermos]

Hence my question, what happens to the believer who occasionally sin?

What is it that causes him/her to sin, notice, I am not saying living in a state of sin, but many believers are committing acts of sin, not joyfully, or willingly.

You quoted the passage previously that addresses your question, take a look at Romans 7:20 but the greater Power revealed in Romans 7:25. Paul didn't stop being a Christian.

Here's a classic example of the will not being bound....

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To some, this is Paul the unregenerate man

To most scholars, Paul, the regenerate man.

Paul writing in the First Person Singular.

You opened your post with "Here's a classic example of the will not being bound", but in Romans 7:25 we find the Apostle writing "then with the mind I myself serve the law of God" - he clarifies how with his mind he serves the law of God with "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:25) - so Paul attributes Paul's serving the law of God as being through Christ not of Paul himself, yet Paul didn't stop there.

The passage of Romans 7:7-25 immediately continues on with:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did]: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as [an offering for] sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:1-8)
​

We Christians "walk" "according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). This is the Power of God in us (1 Corinthians 1:24) controlling the Christian will - "the love of Christ compels us" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

In Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:8, we find "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Paul wrote "the mind set on the flesh is death", yet Jesus conquered the grave, so Jesus delivers us Christians "the mind set on the Spirit is life".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/quietism-and-activism

Quietism has its roots in a 17th Century Roman Catholic movement. It’s most associated with a Spanish priest called Miguel de Molinos, a French mystic called Madame Guyon, and a French Archbishop and writer called Francois Fenelon.

They were associated with the idea that the sanctification of the Christian is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit. In other words, as far as your personal godliness is concerned, there is nothing for you to do except get out of the way, and let God do all the work. Let go of your own will, and any illusion that you can affect your own sanctification in any way, and just allow God to do it. “Let go and let God” is the way some have characterized it.

Think of it as a spiritual car wash. Your job is to sit there while you pass through the various brushes and hoses and dryers, and do nothing. In fact, you’re actively discouraged from doing anything. Leave the car in neutral with the handbrake off, take your feet off the pedals, get your hands off the steering wheel, and don’t even think about touching the moonroof.

That, according to Quietism, is the Christian life. You must calmly resign yourself to the conveyor belt of sanctification, and don’t go getting any funny ideas about, you know, actually striving to live a holy life.

As is often the case with theological mistakes, you can also fall off the horse on the other side. There is an equal and opposite error to quietism, and it’s called activism. That’s the view that not only should you not be passive in the Christian life, actually your growth as a believer is ALL about you. You can’t be relying on the Holy Spirit to do anything for you. You’d better be working incredibly hard, ALL the time, otherwise you’ll never be sanctified.

Most of us tend to fall off the horse one way or the other. Are you more likely to be a quietist or an activist?

Well, Scripture rules out both. To take one particular verse, think about what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians chapter 2 verse 12: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Ah, says the activist, there you are you see. I have to work out my own salvation. It’s all about me.

1. Not so fast, says Paul: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

There you are you see, says the quietist, God does the working. To which Paul says, “Were you not listening to the first part of the sentence?” That’s not in Philippians by the way, but I hope you can see my point.

Scripture gives us a much more “wholistic” view of how we’re to understand the Christian life. We are to work, and work hard, for holiness, but as we do that, we do it in the knowledge that it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. And actually, according to Paul, the very reason that we keep striving for holiness is precisely because we know that God is working in us when we do so. If you knew that God would be at work in you when you are at work, wouldn’t that motivate you to work all the more?

Are you a quietist brother?

You wrote "let God". We Christians don't "let God" do anything because God is in control for it is written "He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth and no one can ward off His hand" (Daniel 4:35).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

You quoted the passage previously that addresses your question, take a look at Romans 7:20 but the greater Power revealed in Romans 7:25. Paul didn't stop being a Christian.



You opened your post with "Here's a classic example of the will not being bound", but in Romans 7:25 we find the Apostle writing "then with the mind I myself serve the law of God" - he clarifies how with his mind he serves the law of God with "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:25) - so Paul attributes Paul's serving the law of God as being through Christ not of Paul himself, yet Paul didn't stop there.

The passage of Romans 7:7-25 immediately continues on with:

​

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did]: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as [an offering for] sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

(Romans 8:1-8)​

​

We Christians "walk" "according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). This is the Power of God in us (1 Corinthians 1:24) controlling the Christian will - "the love of Christ compels us" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

In Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:8, we find "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Paul wrote "the mind set on the flesh is death", yet Jesus conquered the grave, so Jesus delivers us Christians "the mind set on the Spirit is life".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

@Kermos, you seem evasive, don't answer my questions directly and I can understand why, it is not easy to yield trust to members on this Forum, or certain members.
I have asked you if you are a quietist, you are passive, while YHVH through Christ and the Holy Spirit is doing all the work?

 

[Johann]

You wrote "let God". We Christians don't "let God" do anything because God is in control for it is written "He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth and no one can ward off His hand" (Daniel 4:35).

So the answer from you must be in the affirmative, you are a quietist, passive, correct?

 

[Johann]

(1 Corinthians 1:24) controlling the Christian will

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

But to them that are called (autois de tois klētois). Dative case, to the called themselves.
Christ (Christon). Accusative case repeated, object of kērussomen, both the power of God (theou dunamin) and the wisdom of God (theou sophian). No article, but made definite by the genitive. Christ crucified is God’s answer to both Jew and Greek and the answer is understood by those with open minds.


Nothing here about Christ controlling the Christian will @Kermos

 

[Gilligan]

Brother, I see that you are a new member here, welcome.

Thank you. Maybe I'll stick around.

One thing though, read my posts carefully BEFORE answering.
J.

I did read your theories. That's why I asked about the practical application of them. Theories are fine, but their result proves their worth.

If you don't want to answer questions about how you practise them and their results, and keep that part private, then just say so. But we are to be doers of the word, and not hearers only.

 

[Gilligan]

We're not to sanctify our lives according to our own standard of holiness.

Neither do we try to be sanctified nor to live holy. We are sanctified and cleansed and made holy in purity of heart, soul, spirit, and life, the very moment we are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus.

He sanctifies us wholly first, then with Him we keep ourselves sanctified according to His holiness. God's standard of holiness is found in His word and law of Christ.

Our work of faith and part in being saved, is to keep ourselves sanctified that way, and not allow the lust of the world to be in us, and the works of the flesh to be done by us.

I have already answered your question
J.

So you agree. That's good. I agree with you too then.

 

[Johann]

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

Again, are we "helping' god..."god" in the lower case..in our initial salvation?

 

[Johann]

I did read your theories.

Not all, but it takes time to get to know each other.
J.

 

[Gilligan]

So, according to you, we "assist" God in saving us, right?

So you don't agree with me then? Because this isn't what I am saying.

One thing though, read my posts carefully BEFORE answering.

 

[Johann]

Thank you. Maybe I'll stick around.


I did read your theories. That's why I asked about the practical application of them. Theories are fine, but their result proves their worth.

If you don't want to answer questions about how you practise them and their results, and keep that part private, then just say so. But we are to be doers of the word, and not hearers only.

In what way/manner are you a doer of God's work, word?

 

[Behold]

You wrote "let God". We Christians don't "let God" do anything because God is in control for it is written "He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth and no one can ward off His hand" (Daniel 4:35).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

The "no free will" theology came from John Calvin, not the bible.

Consider....

If God was in total control of all minds, in all Humans, then the world would have no sin, no death, no hatred, no wars, no chaos.
It would be perfect and orderly, and never change.

Do you see anything like that outside your window pane?
You do not.
And that is because God allows man to choose what they want to do, and you see the end result

War
Death by Murder
Porn
Rape
Stealing
Lying
Cheating
Hatred
Revenge
Lust
Envy
Greed
Bribery
Drunkenness
Divorce
Child Molesting
Fornication

ONLINE Ordering from Amazon.
Binge Watching NETFLIX

See all that and more?
That is MAN (you) using your God given = FREE WILL.... >to choose to do all that.... if that is your choice or you choose not to do it.

This is why God holds you accountable for your choices.
See, if He caused you to do it, then He can't blame you or hold you accountable.
It does not take a genius to understand that simple fact, but a person who is deceived by John Calvin, can't see it, until they do.

Its time you did, reader.... Hyper Calvinst..... Deceived.
The HERETIC John Calvin lied to you, and you are repeating His Demonic lies.

Wake up, and get out of His Calvinism CULT.

 

[Gilligan]

Again, are we "helping' god..."god" in the lower case..in our initial salvation?

God.

There is no initial salvation in the Bible. Only being saved. There is at once being forgiven, saved, and washed clean the moment we come to Jesus by faith for forgiveness of past sins and reconciliation to God.

By that faith we continue with Jesus in forgiveness, salvation, and remaining washed clean, by adding to our faith those things necessary we must do, so as not to fall into temptation and sin again.

If we do lust and sin again, then we still have an advocate with the Father to confess and be forgiven, saved, and cleansed all at once again.

 

[Johann]

So you don't agree with me then? Because this isn't what I am saying.

One thing though, read my posts carefully BEFORE answering.

I try not to twist what other people say, until I know for sure what they are saying. That's why I asked you specific practical questions about how you apply your teaching. It's a thing of respect and integrity when dealing with others.

I fully concur...mutual respect.

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

Clarify your statement for me...


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
Robertson

faith. App-150. We are saved by grace, not by faith, which is the channel through (dia) which flows to us the Divine stream of saving grace. Both alike God's gifts.
Bullinger

J.

 

[Gilligan]

In what way/manner are you a doer of God's work, word?

By doing what He says to do. I've already quoted the verses for you before.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Here's another:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4:7-8)

He gives us power to do His word by faith, and so we must do our part accordingly.

 

[Johann]

There is no initial salvation in the Bible. Only being saved. There is at once being forgiven, saved, and washed clean the moment we come to Jesus by faith for forgiveness of past sins and reconciliation to God.

I like your answer, what about the Aorist point?

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Moreover: Rom_8:28, Rom_1:6, Rom_9:23-24; Isa_41:9; 1Co_1:2, 1Co_1:9; Eph_4:4; Heb_9:15; 1Pe_2:9; 2Pe_1:10; Rev_17:14, Rev_19:9

he called: Rom_3:22-26; 1Co_6:11; Tit_3:4-7

he justified: Rom_8:1, Rom_8:17-18, Rom_8:33-35, Rom_5:8-10; Joh_5:24, Joh_6:39-40, Joh_17:22, Joh_17:24; 2Co_4:17; Eph_2:6; Col_3:4; 1Th_2:12; 2Th_1:10-12, 2Th_2:13-14; 2Ti_2:11; Heb_9:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_4:13-14, 1Pe_5:10

 

[Gilligan]

I fully concur...mutual respect.

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

Clarify your statement for me...

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4:7-8)

He gives us power to do His word by faith, and so we must do our part accordingly. Once He purifies us from all past sins and corruption of lust of the world, we are given of His Spirit, divine nature, and power to be sons of His: Keeping ourselves pure as He has made us pure as he Himself, both in spirit and life all. He does so all in moment of grace to forgive, redeem, and dwell with us. We do our part to stay that way.