What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[St. SteVen]

First, these "views of hell" are Confusing:

I'll add some definitions.

1) Damnationism
The dominant doctrine of the final judgment. Eternal conscious torment for the damned with no hope of escape.
2) Annihilationism
The secondary doctrine. Basically Damnationism light. The damned will be incinerated into non-existence.
3) Universal Restoration
The most popular view in the early Eastern church. The rise of the western/Latin church pushed it out of view.
But it it rising again in popularity due to the repugnant nature of the other leading views.

Sorry, one rule of my learning is to define everything for understanding/intelligent
conversation; what of these? Are they "God's Plan Of Salvation"?:

A) Redemption
B) Reconciliation
C) Restoration

God's plan of salvation? Yes.
The Abrahamic covenant. "... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - Genesis 12:3

A) Redemption
Continued work that began at the cross. Salvation is collective, redemption is individual.
B) Reconciliation
Same as above.
C) Restoration
This is more specific to UR. A process that begins in the Elect prior to the afterlife.
And continues for everyone in the age to come. The age of restoration.

Somewhat difficult to define these terms. There is a lot of overlap.
And I can't say that what I have written is in any sense finalized. More, off-the-cuff.

 

[St. SteVen]

God's plan of salvation? Yes.
The Abrahamic covenant. "... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - Genesis 12:3

This could not be true if the vast majority were predestined for destruction.


cc: @GRACE ambassador

 

[GRACE ambassador]

God's plan of salvation? Yes.
The Abrahamic covenant. "... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - Genesis 12:3

Gen 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that
curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

all families that "do not curse" Abraham's seed, will "be blessed By God," but it
does not say "saved, nor, Universally Restored"? ('til later?)

Sure hope, @St. SteVen, that's it's not your gift that is causing me to ask
Way Too Many questions

A) Redemption
Continued work that began at the cross. Salvation is collective, redemption is individual.
B) Reconciliation
Same as above.
C) Restoration
This is more specific to UR. A process that begins in the Elect prior to the afterlife.
And continues for everyone in the age to come. The age of restoration.

UR? oops, my bad, thought it was Universal Reconciliation:

Universal Restoration

Somewhat difficult to define these terms.

No problem, I might be "getting it"; let's see what WE do with this?:

“Redemption, which looks toward sin; Reconciliation, which looks toward man;
and Propitiation, which looks toward God.” (Dispensational theology C Baker)

Are all universally 'reconciled' so that all are "universally restored"?

Now the wwwwhw list again:

Who: The Father, The SON, and 'the world'

"And all things are of God, Who Hath Reconciled us To Himself by Jesus Christ, ​

and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ,​

reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and ​

hath committed unto us The Word of reconciliation. ​

​

Wait! What? IF Already complete, then Why would Paul "beg sinners to be reconciled to God"?:

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: ​

we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For He Hath Made Him to ​

be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God ​

in Him." (2Co 5:18-21)​

When: Does this not clearly show us, that God Has "Made Provision" for "man to be forgiven/saved," But, that it is not complete until it’s accepted?

Are WE to understand Paul to be saying that since [How?] God is not, In The Current
Dispensation of Grace, imputing the unbelievers’ sin to them, that they are Already
forgiven? Another What?:

IF WE say the Unbeliever is forgiven of his sins, then are WE teaching that they had
The Precious BLOOD Of Christ applied to them apart from Grace Through faith..."
(Eph 2:8)?

My Precious friend, got ammo? or is it Milk? of The Word? = you're up...

 

[Adam]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Jesus is Adam.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Adam]

P.S. Jesus is also David

Ezekiel 37
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

ADM = Adam, David, Messiah

David represents a halfway point between Adam, and the Messiah, in a reincarnative lineage.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

It is a Great privilege to be of such assistance

And your honesty:

"I'm not concerned about convincing anyone. I'm only about 95% myself."

Maybe with a little push, you can complete it to 100%? ;)

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus is the one who saves. You should allow Him to do just that

Thanks, Precious friend, this makes a Great Point = ALL should "allow Him To Do Just That." But I do have one fear. What?: Does not UR essentially say: "ALL WILL allow Him to do just that," even though it is ... . . . . . . . Against their will?:

​

Luk_19:14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message​

after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us."​

​

My continued fear = How is the New Heaven, Wherein "Dwelleth Righteousness," able to
have these kind of hateful citizens? Or, should we not "allow Scriptures To Speak To" that?:

Rev 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and ​

he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:... (Second Death?)​

​

...and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and​

he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Eternal Life?)​

​

Alas, so much more to learn (Rev 22:12-20?)...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Then your version isn't translating the Greek accurately

Thanks for your opinion - here's mine: Why I study/read God's Word

 

[Chadrho]

Thanks for your opinion - here's mine: Why I study/read God's Word

That wasn't an opinion of mine. The definite article is in the Greek text. If you don't know what you're talking about, at least have the humility to admit it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Here Paul is comparing the original Adam, with the "new Adam" [in quotes], which is Jesus and his followers.

The name "Adam" simply means "man" in Hebrew. Adam was called "man" in order to distinguish him from his wife, Eve.

With regard to origins, be cautious because scientists are guessing and they are rejecting the Bible out-of-hand. The Biblical account can not be falsified and therefore it can't be rejected or accepted on the basis of science. We accept it on the basis of trust instead.

 

[St. SteVen]

Gen 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that
curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

all families that "do not curse" Abraham's seed, will "be blessed By God," but it
does not say "saved, nor, Universally Restored"? ('til later?)

I don't think the intent here is to divide the "all families of the earth", which are being blessed, into two groups. The blessed and the cursed.

Sure hope, @St. SteVen, that's it's not your gift that is causing me to ask
Way Too Many questions

I hope it is. I want to hear you out. No worries.
I don't have ALL the answers, and you don't have ALL the questions.
It will end when it should. And peacefully, I hope.

UR? oops, my bad, thought it was Universal Reconciliation:

All good. UR is used in several ways. Some of the terms have gotten a bad rep. So we change it up.
Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption...

No problem, I might be "getting it"; let's see what WE do with this?:

“Redemption, which looks toward sin; Reconciliation, which looks toward man;
and Propitiation, which looks toward God.” (Dispensational theology C Baker)

Are all universally 'reconciled' so that all are "universally restored"?

Not as I understand it.
Reconciliation and restoration happen individually. Same as here on earth, before the afterlife.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Who: The Father, The SON, and 'the world'

"And all things are of God, Who Hath Reconciled us To Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ,reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us The Word of reconciliation.

That scripture is good. The ultimate reconciliation stats here. (oops, there's another one) Ultimate Reconciliation.

Wait! What? IF Already complete, then Why would Paul "beg sinners to be reconciled to God"?:

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For He Hath Made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2Co 5:18-21)

There is value in a renewed relationship with God in the here and now.
Unfortunately, many "believers" would NOT follow Christ if there was no afterlife. Very sad.

When: Does this not clearly show us, that God Has "Made Provision" for "man to be forgiven/saved," But, that it is not complete until it’s accepted?

Sure. That works in the afterlife as well, if that's when God chooses to do it.
Remember, no one can come to God unless the Spirit draws them. When that happens is up to God.
I would hate to think that God intentionally would neglect to draw anyone. Perish the thought.

Are WE to understand Paul to be saying that since [How?] God is not, In The Current
Dispensation of Grace, imputing the unbelievers’ sin to them, that they are Already
forgiven? Another What?:

IF WE say the Unbeliever is forgiven of his sins, then are WE teaching that they had
The Precious BLOOD Of Christ applied to them apart from Grace Through faith..."
(Eph 2:8)?

The work of the atonement was a complete work.

My Precious friend, got ammo? or is it Milk? of The Word? = you're up...

I hope I am answering your questions, friend. Let me know if you have more. Happy to help.

Did I tell you how I ended up with this POV?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I hope I am answering your questions, friend. Let me know if you have more. Happy to help.

Did I tell you how I ended up with this POV?

I appreciate it Very Much. Please tell me more...

More questions still coming - you don't mind a LOT of homework?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus is Adam.

Doesn't that confuse the issue?

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

This speaks of the FIRST Adam and a last Adam, inferring more than one.
The second man is the Lord from heaven, the first man is of the earth.

Doesn't seems as though we can limit Adam to Jesus. Unless I am misunderstanding. Send help. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

It is a Great privilege to be of such assistance

And your honesty:

"I'm not concerned about convincing anyone. I'm only about 95% myself."

Maybe with a little push, you can complete it to 100%? ;)

Just to be clear, my commitment is 100%, my apologetics range between 85 and 95%. - LOL

Early on in this journey I decided that I would rather be a Universalist and by wrong, than a Damnationist and be right.

No offense to anyone reading this, but I simply could not willingly worship the caricature of God we have been fed at church.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks, Precious friend, this makes a Great Point = ALL should "allow Him To Do Just That." But I do have one fear. What?: Does not UR essentially say: "ALL WILL allow Him to do just that," even though it is ... . . . . . . . Against their will?:

That's a great question. Thanks.
You may have heard me say before, "Anyone who claims to hate God, hasn't met Him yet."
Or in response to the "second chance question, "Nothing is left to chance."

Because we know the outcome, what we mistakenly call free-will has no effect. IMHO
In the presence of absolute love, the notion of a free-will to resist is preposterous.

Imagine being in the presence of someone who loves you as much as God does.
Every ounce of self-manufactured resistance would melt away as the nonsense it is.

This is my view. I read a good article on the subject recently, but can't locate it at the moment.

My continued fear = How is the New Heaven, Wherein "Dwelleth Righteousness," able to
have these kind of hateful citizens? Or, should we not "allow Scriptures To Speak To" that?:

This is what the age of restoration is for. To prevent anything like that from entering heaven.

 

[St. SteVen]

Did I tell you how I ended up with this POV?

I appreciate it Very Much. Please tell me more...

Sure. Happy to.

I was raised evangelical and married a woman with a similar background and religious interests.
We were both transitioning into churches with a more Charismatic/Pentecostal focus.
We have been married for 43 years and are still active in a church where we meet physically every week.
Also active in small group and various mens' and womens' activities.

More recently, my sister-in-law declared to her Mom that she couldn't believe in a God that would throw people into hell.
Mom was pretty upset. We heard about this in a family gathering. I trotted out the usual "hell" apologetics.
Which were biblically, but fell flat in terms of resolving the issue with sis-in-law.
She had no doubt heard all this before. It was what she was already objecting to.

The situation left me with a cold hole inside. The "hell" thing had always been a blemish on our faith.
And the church seemed to realize this as well. We still had our fire and brimstone churches.
But principally the church had shifted away from such an off-putting message.
The focus now was on seeker-friendly worship services and ministries. How come?

But, I hadn't really given it a lot of thought. It rarely came up.
Years earlier, an agnostic friend asked me if I was planning on telling him he was going to hell.
I vowed that I never would, and I have kept my promise.

Not too long after the sister-in-law issue, I was talking with a Christian friend that I had a lot of respect for.
I really considered him to be like my big brother in Christ.
He offhandedly mentioned that he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. --- Say what?

This guy knew his Bible. If he had figured this thing out, I wanted to know how.
He gave me some info, but I was very resistant. I hit him with all the "hell" apologetics I could muster.
I wanted answers! He had to rein me in. We were getting nowhere fast.

He asked me to read the chapter about judgment in this book and come back with questions.
The Savior of the World -- By J. Preston Eby (read free online)

This helped a lot. And I began to see and understand the problems with the view of hell we were raised with.
Next thing I knew, I could easily see through the typical arguments against the "hell" doctrine.

Since then I have been sharing my thoughts on the subject with anyone who will listen.
I have a lot of respect for anyone that will do their homework and make a decision about this.
Regardless of which view they choose. Perhaps the light will come on eventually. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

More questions still coming - you don't mind a LOT of homework?

No homework yet. I'm still shooting from the hip.
You really need to get tough with me. - LOL
Rock my world. I double-dog dare you. (as the saying goes)

Actually, I appreciate the tenor of our discussions to date.

I should also say that I have found this forum to be very welcoming.
(at 120 posts in about ten days) Kudos.

I'll see a doctor about my carpel tunnel next week. - LOL
Just kidding.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

UR gift ;) Causing endless questions?:

I hope it is. I want to hear you out. No worries.
I don't have ALL the answers, and you don't have ALL the questions.
It will end when it should. And peacefully, I hope.

Mutually acceptable! God Commands me to "be at Peace with all men"...

Why? Because Of The Merits Of Christ's:
Shed (ALL-Sufficient) BLOOD Of His Finished Work On The Cross

cc: @St. SteVen:

"Agree. But this nullifies some earlier points. IMHO"

How so?
+
Next battering-ram round of inquiries :

Are WE to understand Paul to be saying that since [How?] God is not, In The Current
Dispensation of Grace, imputing the unbelievers’ sin to them, that they are Already
forgiven? Another What?:

IF WE say the Unbeliever is forgiven of his sins, then are WE teaching that they had
The Precious BLOOD Of Christ applied to them apart from Grace Through faith..."
(Eph 2:8)?

The work of the atonement was a complete work.

Agree, but, you did say this:

That works in the afterlife as well, if that's when God chooses to do it.

+

This is what the age of restoration is for. To prevent anything like that from entering heaven.

I would need Scriptures Teaching me that, because I have not seen:

Second chance, after death, in the afterlife? And that would be Very troubling, since God Said
I should ( 100% commitment ) believe/live By His Every Pure Word Of Truth, "speaking sound
doctrine" to any who might hear (Titus 2:1) Agree?

Imagine being in the presence of someone who loves you as much as God does.
Every ounce of self-manufactured resistance would melt away as the nonsense it is.

One chance, in this life? Were not "these In The Presence of The LORD God, Jesus Christ"?

Joh_8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go My way, and ye shall
seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
+
Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for
if ye believe not that I AM [ He ], ye shall die in your sins.
+
Heb_9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Seems to me, IF "judgment is After death," then "The Very Gracious Offer (in this life)
of God's Good News" is over, and "Unbelievers' sins will be imputed to them at the
Final Judgment"? Third chance even after that? Then their "resistance would melt away"?

Because of What Saith The Scripture?:

Mat 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out
devils? and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them,
I never Knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Still "dead in sin"? But still hope for second chance? He will Know them later? How is this UR?
+

Rev 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:... (Second Death?)...and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Eternal Life?)

Which, Of course leads us back to the crux of the matter?:

UR: "If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.?" contradicts Rev 22:11a, no?
vs

Yes:
"Since all died In Adam, then all ( accepted ) In Christ are made alive." Agrees with Rev 22:11
(Eph 2:5,8; Rom 3:22,30,36, 4:5 (by faith/belief), 4:24, 5:1, 9:30, 10:10, Phil 3:9;
............................................. (Eph 1:12-13 & trust )

So now, what of UR interpretation?:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the
obedience of one shall many (interpreted "ALL, without exception"?) be made righteous."

Why, if "shall be made righteous" = "Justified," ignore v. 1?:

Rom 5:1 "Therefore being Justified by faith, we have​

Peace with God through our LORD Jesus Christ"​

This is the One Constant that has kept me for 44 years now. Amen.

Have learned much in our Great Discussion, once again. Enough questions for now - Be Encouraged and Edified...

 

[St. SteVen]

With regard to origins, be cautious because scientists are guessing and they are rejecting the Bible out-of-hand. The Biblical account can not be falsified and therefore it can't be rejected or accepted on the basis of science. We accept it on the basis of trust instead.

Wow. Is this the best we can do?
Scientists are guessing? What they call "research"?
Rejecting the Bible out-of-hand? Do you mean without reason?
The Biblical account cannot be falsified? Say what?
We accept the Biblical account on the basis of trust? Blind faith?
Why do we trust the Bible? (I'm not saying we shouldn't, but why do we?)

 

[St. SteVen]

UR gift ;)Causing endless questions?:

Oh. boy.
I was hoping for a truck load, this is more like a trainload. - LOL

After reading your post...
It seems to boil down to a concern about whether this UR thing is biblical?
So let's address that. Unless I have missed the boat with my observation.
(seems to be a transportation theme here)

The biggest issue for me in that vein is where, and from whom, our Bible came from.
Universalism was a dominant theology in the early church in the eastern/Greek-speaking church.
But our Bible came from the western/Latin speaking church. This hurt UR.
Because of the bias of the western/Latin church, the Bible they provided and the translation work...
leaves much to be desired.

I provide scriptures for those who want them. But here's what happens...
They are read with the same presuppositions that I grew up with.

You and I experienced the same thing over the phrase/word "the many", or "many".

I get complaints about context all the time. When I ask to review the context,
they either disappear or broaden the context far enough to get a verse that says what they want.

I'm told that the scriptures I bring don't mean what they plainly say.

I can dump a bunch of scripture on you, if you like. But I know where that road ends.
(not in a good neighborhood) - LOL

The biggest issue for me is what the different views say about God's character.

A good example is the broad and narrow way. (few there be that find it)
If this has to do with the afterlife, it raises some serious questions.

This looks like a high-stakes game of hide and seek.
Does God play games with our eternal destiny?