Imputation is based on the Old Testament
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No. I'm saying that justification doesn't change history, what is true remains true.
Much love!
Not so. And lest you feel this is more "mumbo jumbo", I'll simply allow God's Word to complete this post. It's a very high calling. Maturity, the fullness of the stature of Christ.
Philippians 3:9-15 KJV
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Much love!
So the second statement is your further clarification of the first statement?
All have sinned, and when someone is justified by God, that doesn't change the fact that they had sinned.
Romans 5 teaches us about this sort of thing,
Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The Bible speaks in terms of "imputed sin", and "actual sin". Before the Law was given, sin was committed by men, and they died because of it, just the same, it was not imputed to them, that is, though they were sinners, and died because of it, they hadn't broken God's Law. There had only been one Law given up to that time, Don't eat from THAT tree.
Their sin was not imputed to them, having not broken that one law. It was true actual sin, deadly sin, yet not imputed to them. But even though the sin was not imputed to them, they still died.
So there is the physical consequence of sin, because the sin was real, and deadly, but there was not the judicial consequence for sin, because the Law had not yet been given.
This is an important thing to understand. Are we on the same page here?
There is a very radical implication to this passage. This means that everyone between Adam and the giving of the Law is not imputed with sin. Talk about a wide avenue for God to give mercy to whom He will!
Much love!
I couldn't agree more! But my time is gone, I've got to run, Lord willing, see you all tomorrow!
Much love!
Those who are born again need desperately to be instructed in righteousness...not declare themselves righteous on the level of God. To declare such is going the wrong way...the way of God's wrath.
Zeph. 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.
Humility is equated with righteousness in the bible. We are to learn meekness and humility by learning about righteousness. The righteous will be HIDDEN from God's wrath on judgment day...God covers the first layer of sin for the righteous.
But if we build (religious) sin on sin (Is. 30:1) into a Pharisaical iniquity ....then we will have foregone humility and instruction in righteousness. Instead we will be building sepulchers on high....claiming a righteousness for ourselves that is actually in truth a covering in iniquity.
We are not to turn aside to fables but rather to fear the Lord and learn righteousness. Those who claim to be righteous because of their beliefs have fallen for the great delusion. We are to receive with MEEKNESS the implanted word. And God gives grace to the humble...not to puff them up...but to have them walk in a higher stakes heavenly realm to learn to be conformed to Christ on that level. And this requires MORE meekness...not less.
Jesus was sent to preach liberty to the meek....,not the religiously puffed up and spoiled.
Zeph. 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.
Humility is equated with righteousness in the bible. We are to learn meekness and humility by learning about righteousness. The righteous will be HIDDEN from God's wrath on judgment day...God covers the first layer of sin for the righteous.
But if we build (religious) sin on sin (Is. 30:1) into a Pharisaical iniquity ....then we will have foregone humility and instruction in righteousness. Instead we will be building sepulchers on high....claiming a righteousness for ourselves that is actually in truth a covering in iniquity.
We are not to turn aside to fables but rather to fear the Lord and learn righteousness. Those who claim to be righteous because of their beliefs have fallen for the great delusion. We are to receive with MEEKNESS the implanted word. And God gives grace to the humble...not to puff them up...but to have them walk in a higher stakes heavenly realm to learn to be conformed to Christ on that level. And this requires MORE meekness...not less.
Jesus was sent to preach liberty to the meek....,not the religiously puffed up and spoiled.
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Well, I think, in a nutshell, there are now three statements in which you are trying to say basically the same thing In different ways to help me understand? I’m trying to understand the first, so you add the second to try to clarify for me, then you add the third. I know you did a longer post, but I’m too confused to move onward.
1. When God says a man has done the right thing to trust Him, it is in spite of him not doing the right thing?
2. God saying a man has done the right thing to trust Him doesn’t change the man’s history, what the man did in the past, it still remains true that he did it?
3. When God says a man has done the right thing to trust Him, that doesn’t change the fact that he previously sinned?
I think that worked! I do understand #3 finally.
Now I have to go try to figure out why the statement is important to you.
In my pea sized head, this is how I understand what I’ve read:
1. When God says a man has done the right thing to trust Him, it is in spite of him not doing the right thing?
2. God saying a man has done the right thing to trust Him doesn’t change the man’s history, what the man did in the past, it still remains true that he did it?
3. When God says a man has done the right thing to trust Him, that doesn’t change the fact that he previously sinned?
I think that worked! I do understand #3 finally.
Now I have to go try to figure out why the statement is important to you.
I never really noted that verse before… :)
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Ironically, driving home last night the Pastor on the Moody Radio show elaborated on our work. It is as God as orgained. Each of us have work that is exactly what we should be doing because God wants us to do it - and show we live for him in the doing. )There is no higher calling. That is just mumbo jumbo of a mystic.)
This thread came to mind as I listened intently to the many Scriptural verses. And I may have missed it but the focus seems to have changed from imputation (capitalize it if you prefer) to a mystical higher calling.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I take it the righteousness of man is to repent. That is all.
It is a fearsome thing to face one's maker. It can go by many other names, putting faith in Him, trusting him, etc. It is a contradiction to say you have faith in God BUT turn your back on him and go your own way.
Not sure why what @marks (not Mike) said is so confusing.
It goes towards the meaning of logidzomai, impute or reckon. The uncircumcised are imputed circumcision when they keep the Law. But it doesn't mean that they are now, in their flesh, circumcised.
The unrighteous are imputed righteousness when they believe in God, though that doesn't mean they are no longer unrighteous in their flesh - the natural life in the body.
Imputed righteousness is not righteousness that comes from ourselves.
Philippians 3:9 KJV
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Righteousness that you obtain for yourself by doing what is right, and righteousness which is from God, given to us as we believe in Him.
And it's not a lie, because we are reborn in His pattern,
Ephesians 4:23-24 KJV
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Much love!
The foundation.
We're dealing with two VERY DIFFERENT views of salvation. Radically different!
This is a reason why I like Reflective Listening, to help make sure everyone understands the different views aside from their own.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Agreed. What I see is a system that is looking for a religious (or theological) solution to a spiritual problem. The consequences of which are to build with materials that are unapproved of God (Think...wood hay and stubble, or else "untempered mortar").
"A system that is looking for . . ."
?
I think we are comparing our views on this topic. There is no need to ascribe some kind of bias or intent like this, don't you think?
I can't speak for others, I'm simply sharing what I've come to understand from the Scriptures, and from the Holy Spirit. If you feel that I'm "gaming" myself to come to some certain conclusion, I don't know how we can discuss this.
The solution is spiritual of course!
Much love!
I've been thinking about how to answer.
I believe Scripture teaches that when we are baptized into Christ, that we are joined to Him in His death, and in so doing, we are crucified to our flesh. Being crucified to the flesh means that we have died to the flesh, and been made alive in the Spirit. While we previously derived our life from living in these flesh bodies with their flesh brains and fleshy minds, now we derive our life from our union with the Holy Spirit, and no longer need do those things are flesh does.
Others believe that being born again begins us on the path of crucifying our flesh, which if we can accomplish in the course of our lifetime, we can petition God to take us into a "higher walk" where we are so fully and completely Spirit controlled that we are indistinguishable from Jesus Himself in how we live. (I'm always open to correction if I'm getting this wrong.)
In the first instance, we are fully saved, and on a pathway to greater maturity, as our minds are being renewed. In the second case, we are on a pathway to being fully saved, as we continue to crucify our flesh.
Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
"Is crucified" is in the passive voice, it is something that is done to us.
Galatians 5:22-25 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
The Bible speaks in terms that we can be alive in the Spirit, yet not walking as if that were so. We are admonished that if we do in fact live in the Spirit, we should also then walk in the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:22-25 KJV
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Even having been recreated in righteousness and holiness of truth, even so we are admonished to put off that old man, and put on the new.
One the one hand, we've been given a start, but must complete our self-crucifixion to - hopefully - obtain the "full measure of grace", and a full salvation. Failure to do so may result in your being cast into outer darkness, doing so may result in ruling over those who did not.
On the other hand, we've been given a new life, which will last forever, in communion with God. But each will have their own judgment from God, and either our life works will be burnt to ashes, or some may remain being of the right stuff.
Daniel 12:2-3 KJV
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Romans 5:5 KJV
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Much love!
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Beware the breath of the dragon . So many are now under its influence with this all inclusive false love unity go spell from hell
that it preaches . As the peoples gather under churches who embrace rainbow flags and all paths to GOD as valid and good .
its infected many . SOME worse than others . THEY are in our midst as we speak . They see only this false love god now .
this god of love which DENIES CHRIST , GOD and that which is holy and has replaced The LOVE of GOD with the love that cometh of the world . BEWARE it sister . Beware it . It has infected many and it will GET WORSE .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Jospeh once told pilates wife , MY MASTER KNOWS Not what he has in his house . PONITIFFS wife was harlot .
And i am telling us all that many have no idea what is sitting in many churches , ITS HARLOTS decked in chrisanity
to cause all to go a whoring from UNDER GOD . BEWARE they are amongst us . THEY know only a sensual love now .
WHICH THEY are convinced cometh of GOD when in truth IT COMETH OF THE DRAGON and his men .
And i am telling us all that many have no idea what is sitting in many churches , ITS HARLOTS decked in chrisanity
to cause all to go a whoring from UNDER GOD . BEWARE they are amongst us . THEY know only a sensual love now .
WHICH THEY are convinced cometh of GOD when in truth IT COMETH OF THE DRAGON and his men .
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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