Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[Episkopos]

I myself have only grown less sure about the nature of the Godhead as time goes on. Hopefully no one sends a hitman for me.

Let's hope not! :)

And let's hope people don't falsely characterize what we say in their own words rather than quote us directly.

I don't own a cellphone. But I've seen them used. People have called me on them.

If I say something hurtful to them while on the phone...will they be offended or grieved? Or must that always be in "person".

We have made great strides in technology..and we rely on things that past generations would think are miraculous.

But I see that we have gone backward to the same degree in spiritual things. We are still operating in a superstitious religious way rather than understanding how God works among us.

Do we fall in love with our cellphones? Do we worship them as divine?

I hope not...but that's what happens to a spiritually backward people when the conveyance is seen as a person.

We are to worship the Father IN Spirit and truth. Do we worship the Spirit (like so many radical pentecostal types who demand the Spirit be increased?) ????

Do we worship the truth? Or do we worship THROUGH the Spirit and truth as a means to please the Father? (And here the religoius mindset will exclaim...but Jesus IS the truth...etc) (See I know how you think! ) :)

I see it is just plain old ignorance that attacks me for trying to bring clarity and direction to what is basically an ineffectual religious mess.

 

[Episkopos]

oh…yes, I’ve thought that to be righteous, on a human level, must mean the same thing as the one sinner praying, so that leaving his prayer “justified” meant the same thing as “righteous” and that God said of the man that he had done the right/righteous/just thing by saying he left justified. When a man tells the truth about himself, God sees the man has done the right thing.
But of course that doesn’t mean the man left there and always continued to do what was right/righteous in Gods eyes. And we see a list of kings in the OT where God says of certain kings, and he did what was right in Gods sight, nevertheless, he did not tear down all the idols of his father. (Some translations say he didn’t tear down all “the high places” rather than “all the idols.”)

So even with the kings who “did right” or who were “wholly devoted to the Lord” it says that “nevertheless” of not getting rid of all idol worship in the land. People are stiffnecked I guess.

So I can see that in the OT (and as concerns us), men don’t always do what is the right thing in Gods sight. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. I know I don’t always. My conscience tells me, so I admit my poverty of spirit and ask for what I lack.

But as you’ve said before, if you remain with that honesty, contriteness of heart and humility, God makes a place for you among the righteous of the nations, of whom the holy will rule over. That’s very good news. To someone like me, who was raised being always rejected and being told I was never good or perfect enough in anything I did or said, it’s a great relief that God is not like my earthly parent.

And there is a lot of hope that God will lift me up into walking in His Spirit in His holiness if I take that low and truthful place in my heart. But to inherit the earth sounds pretty good and blessed, even though we continue to race to enter into that more.

Well said. If people realized that by letting go their religious pretenses...they could be saved...instead of insisting how much like Paul of even God they really are.

But the carnal religious mind will have none of it.


It's like when monkey hunters put a shiny object at the bottom of a bottle in order to snare them. All the monkey would have to do is LET GO the shiny object...and they would be saved! But do they? No..they stay there and are caught to remind us how the carnal mind works! And...how the snare of the devil works.

Try to help them to let go of the shiny object...for THEIR sake...and they hiss at you and call YOU a devil and false teacher. So then let them remain in the snare...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well said. If people realized that by letting go their religious pretenses...they could be saved...instead of insisting how much like Paul of even God they really are.

But the carnal religious mind will have none of it.

I struggle with how much of it is caused by bad doctrine and how much of it is not yet having the passions calmed. And whether the result of the bad doctrine might actually PREVENT the passions from ever being calmed. But how would you even determine that? It took 15 years or so for that with me.

 

[Episkopos]

I struggle with how much of it is caused by bad doctrine and how much of it is not yet having the passions calmed. And whether the result of the bad doctrine might actually PREVENT the passions from ever being calmed. But how would you even determine that? It took 15 years or so for that with me.

The devil has set up a false religious system that fools people into diverting their attention away from the truth for something that goes easy on the flesh. And that is very seductive. It's the Garden of Eden story over and over again. But very few are paying attention.

The only way I have not been fooled myself, is to have been taken to where the higher walk really takes place. It still took me a decade or so to finally put it all together.

It only took you 15 years? You are fast. Most people will never get it.
The only thing I can help with is the knowledge of sound doctrine...together with the understand of how it works. But the wisdom must come from those who have ears to hear. And God has to help them understand. Otherwise they will follow their forefathers down the road of religious obscurity and finally rejection.

Am I trying to destroy faith? Quite the opposite. I am trying to destroy...tear down...religious superstition and carnal beliefs that get in the way of a biblical faith. The building into eternal things goes from there.

A certain poster recently said...I read the bible and accept whatever it says as true without understanding it. That is a recipe for disaster. We are called on to understand...not just take what is written and filter it through a superstitious mind that interprets one's own understanding as being right. As in...do I need to believe in this to be saved??? Or..do I need to believe in the rapture to be raptured? And other such silly notions.

That's how racism gets propagated. As in...I don't know why I hate them...I was raised to! Aren't I supposed to?

Propagating ignorance through a blind belief (not blind faith) ...a white-knuckling grip on dogmatic posturings...without any real understanding of what is at stake...is the way the world is brought into chaos. At least the church sure is! And by extension...the spiritual vacuum left by a a dead (dysfunctional) church that doesn't stop the downward slide of the world into chaos.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The devil has set up a false religious system that fools people into diverting their attention away from the truth for something that goes easy on the flesh. And that is very seductive. It's the Garden of Eden story over and over again. But very few are paying attention.

Yeah. I can see that with us, because we are born from marred parents. I can’t quite see it the same with Adam though. He didn’t have the handicap we do. It wasn’t a marred mind, will and emotions satan appealed to with them…

The only way I have not been fooled myself, is to have been taken to where the higher walk really takes place. It still took me a decade or so to finally put it all together.

It only took you 15 years? You are fast. Most people will never get it.

Sure didn’t seem fast to me but I’ll take your word on that. And for about…11,12 or 13 of the 15 and a half years, I had your help. It’s kind of harder to imagine you’re somewhere you aren’t when you learn by someone else that there even IS a further. I still don’t know how I saw you were speaking the truth though, since so many other people think you’re almost satan himself…sure can’t explain that!

The only thing I can help with is the knowledge of sound doctrine...together with the understand of how it works. But the wisdom must come from those who have ears to hear. And God has to help them understand. Otherwise they will follow their forefathers down the road of religious obscurity and finally rejection.

Am I trying to destroy faith? Quite the opposite. I am trying to destroy...tear down...religious superstition and carnal beliefs that get in the way of a biblical faith. The building into eternal things goes from there.

 

[Episkopos]

Yeah. I can see that with us, because we are born from marred parents. I can’t quite see it the same with Adam though. He didn’t have the handicap we do. It wasn’t a marred mind, will and emotions satan appealed to with them…

Sure didn’t seem fast to me but I’ll take your word on that. And for about…11,12 or 13 of the 15 and a half years, I had your help. It’s kind of harder to imagine you’re somewhere you aren’t when you learn by someone else that there even IS a further. I still don’t know how I saw you were speaking the truth though, since so many other people think you’re almost satan himself…sure can’t explain that!

The difference I see... is that you don't have guile...you're not into pretending. So many here think God is playing a game of pretend. Whoever plays the game...is "saved". And whoever doesn't play the game...well, they're just plain evil! ;)

 

[Johann]

Sure didn’t seem fast to me but I’ll take your word on that. And for about…11,12 or 13 of the 15 and a half years, I had your help. It’s kind of harder to imagine you’re somewhere you aren’t when you learn by someone else that there even IS a further. I still don’t know how I saw you were speaking the truth though, since so many other people think you’re almost satan himself…sure can’t explain that!

Stun, sorry for butting in, none of my business really, but I don't know if you are aware that many, many disillusioned Christians are now embracing Judaism, they have to recant Jesus, be baptized, observe the 7 Noahide mitzvot and each one have a rabbi to teach them the dereck of Hashem.
I personally don't think you are stupid, we had our many "intense moments of fellowship" but I would caution you that you don't need a man to teach you or instruct concerning things as written in Scriptures.

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
AMP.

See, I am not being sarcastic with you here, we are all fallible and prone to make mistakes.
And take note, I am not saying anything derogatory toward epi, but he is not your teacher/ rabbi Stun

All the answers to life's questions is right in front of you, in scripture, and sure, we all have questions.....ponder and chew the cud on the verse the Lord has given you sister.

I don't know if you are going to snap at me, or what, fact is, on judgement day we are going to stand alone before our Judge, to give an answer to every idle, useless, inoperative word/s we have spoken, in word, thought and deed, and our friends is not going to stand at our side to speak in our behalf.

Ponder on this when you go to bed.
Shalom
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The difference I see... is that you don't have guile...you're not into pretending. So many here think God is playing a game of pretend. Whoever plays the game...is "saved". And whoever doesn't play the game...well, they're just plain evil! ;)

Mmm…okay, I think that’s true. But the only reason I have low guile and hate pretending is because of the awful circumstance I was raised in, technical term of “scapegoat.” It was so bad that I not only hated my family of abusers and enablers/flying monkeys but I saw the same hidden, but more mild, pretendings in every person and world system I met. So I hated the whole world. So the trade off for no guile was overwhelming hatred. If I ever did meet anyone who had no guile, I wouldn’t have known it because I assumed everyone was being equally as fake. I know now that’s not true but it’s certainly not often that you run across someone who has escaped that whole useless way of life we were all baptized into. Most people still are accustomed to practice It some, although they are not full blown evil in it as very malignant or covert narcissists are.
I probably too harshly overreact to even mild guile. You can’t expect everyone to see it immediately. It’s so commonplace that it seems like normal, even though it’s not to be for us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Stun, sorry for butting in, none of my business really, but I don't know if you are aware that many, many disillusioned Christians are now embracing Judaism, they have to recant Jesus, be baptized, observe the 7 Noahide mitzvot and each one have a rabbi to teach them the dereck of Hashem.

Thats pretty awful. I couldn’t follow with the non English words there but I did understand you nevertheless. I have run across some very…strange Christian’s too, who get somewhat caught up in Jewish practices for a space of time.
Oddly, I saw today that Jehovahs Witnesses are a lot like Jews too In some ways.

I personally don't think you are stupid, we had our many "intense moments of fellowship" but I would caution you that you don't need a man to teach you or instruct concerning things as written in Scriptures.

I both agree AND disagree. While we are currently in a very weakened state and with many doctrines holding us back rather than advancing us together and bringing us to unity (and most at least agree about our weakened state and most lament and are distressed about it but don’t have the vision of what needs to be done to fix us) it was ALWAYS meant that some among us would be gifted by God as apostles, teachers, prophets, etc. And a prophet today means someone given understanding to speak on the things we have lost and that have almost died out. Read the stories of them and you will see this is true. They are given that vision of how to fix us. They are every bit as important to the building up of us all as are those gifted with healing or with the understanding to teach or exhort. The part of the body I am saddest for are prophets. They are the most abused part of the body. They’re like…the toes, which always get smashed and damaged far more than the rest of the body. And they are always looked at with suspicion because so many false ones are out there for one real one. Like with Elijah, the last one left who hadn’t been killed, who stood up to a total of 850 false ones. One real one to every 850 false ones is a pretty grim number. You almost feel you can’t blame men for being suspicious of them. But I don’t know why most can’t see and can’t accept a prophet. Plenty of men accept false ones in many denominations, but very few seem to be able to see and accept a real one. I know it’s always been that way, I just don’t know why. Very few accept them, until they’re dead. Then they accept them.

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
AMP.

You have to work for the balance between that Verse and these ones:
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers
All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

So the one verse does not cancel out these three verses. And the three verses do not cancel out the one verse. They must be understood together.

See, I am not being sarcastic with you here, we are all fallible and prone to make mistakes.
And take note, I am not saying anything derogatory toward epi, but he is not your teacher/ rabbi Stun

Yes, I see that brother. You are speaking very well. You are not even so much as breaking a bruised reed and it is very winsome because I’ve caught a likeness to our Lord in you today. I’ve been crying over it all day, off and on.

Epi has taught me many things he has seen. So he HAS been a teacher to me. Many in here have taught me, small things, large things, things our Lord showed them. I also have shared what He has shown me. It’s how it’s supposed to work.

All the answers to life's questions is right in front of you, in scripture, and sure, we all have questions.....ponder and chew the cud on the verse the Lord has given you sister.

I don't know if you are going to snap at me, or what, fact is, on judgement day we are going to stand alone before our Judge, to give an answer to every idle, useless, inoperative word/s we have spoken, in word, thought and deed, and our friends is not going to stand at our side to speak in our behalf.

Ponder on this when you go to bed.
Shalom
J.

I don’t see how anyone could possibly snap at you for what you’ve said and how sincerely and humbly you’ve spoken here. You’ve been nothing but a good example of how to speak here. So even you have taught and encouraged me today.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I see it is just plain old ignorance that attacks me for trying to bring clarity and direction to what is basically an ineffectual religious mess.

Well…yes. It’s a lack of knowledge. But it’s always been like that.
Reminds me of a quote by some old saint. Can’t find it on Google so I will probably mangle it. Something like…if we are one or two steps ahead of someone spiritually, they will admire us. If we are more than two steps ahead, they will think us quite evil.

 

[Keturah]

Stun, sorry for butting in, none of my business really, but I don't know if you are aware that many, many disillusioned Christians are now embracing Judaism, they have to recant Jesus, be baptized, observe the 7 Noahide mitzvot and each one have a rabbi to teach them the dereck of Hashem.
I personally don't think you are stupid, we had our many "intense moments of fellowship" but I would caution you that you don't need a man to teach you or instruct concerning things as written in Scriptures.

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
AMP.

See, I am not being sarcastic with you here, we are all fallible and prone to make mistakes.
And take note, I am not saying anything derogatory toward epi, but he is not your teacher/ rabbi Stun

All the answers to life's questions is right in front of you, in scripture, and sure, we all have questions.....ponder and chew the cud on the verse the Lord has given you sister.

I don't know if you are going to snap at me, or what, fact is, on judgement day we are going to stand alone before our Judge, to give an answer to every idle, useless, inoperative word/s we have spoken, in word, thought and deed, and our friends is not going to stand at our side to speak in our behalf.

Ponder on this when you go to bed.
Shalom
J.

Thank you for saying what I wish to say in such eloquence!

A.TRUTH SETS ONE FREE!
B.TRUTH GIVES US LIBERTY IN CHRIST!
C.TRUTH BINDS TRUE . BELIEVERS IN LOVE !
D.TRUTH ALSO....DIVIDES THOSE CONTRARY TO GOD'S HOLY WRIT.

Be not dismayed for this is an earthly separation. All TRUE believers are united in spirit by God's Spirit; therefore none are lost.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I myself have only grown less sure about the nature of the Godhead as time goes on. Hopefully no one sends a hitman for me.

I woke with another verse concerning this. :)

Take care that no one deceives himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

I don’t often look at the amplified version but Johann drew my attention to it by quotingfrom it recently and I like the way it renders this - Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool [discarding his worldly pretensions and acknowledging his lack of wisdom], so that he may become [truly] wise.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I see it is just plain old ignorance that attacks me for trying to bring clarity and direction to what is basically an ineffectual religious mess.

I had another thought on this.
Concerning preaching both in season and out of season, I think it is preaching when the Holy Spirit comes upon and amidst and also still preaching when it’s not raining like that. But I think I saw something else too. A division that would go something like this: preach the word always. Be ready in season (when it’s raining the Spirit and is easy because it’s Him moving and coming both upon the preacher in effectiveness and amidst all, showering and softening the ground to make it pliable).
And also preach out of season (when it’s not raining the Spirit on and amidst and greater patience and self restraint and endurance is needed to correct, rebuke, exhort and labor).

Im really focused on what is my fault. I’m not focused on what is not my fault but on what IS my fault. In season is easy, you just surrender and get out of the way and speak. Out of season is not easy and is when it is more likely for me to default to deep seated habits of the flesh that still linger deeper in me, if not careful. And there’s some element of getting stuck in the habit and so preventing rain from coming by my own fault. In that case, having been given more in my weaning than others not weaned yet, I’m responsible and more is expected of me than of them.

And I’m not talking about when anothers perception is wrong and they’re not yet able to see the tactics of the enemy and so think I’m being mean to others rather than being firm with a bad spirit.
Im talking only about when it really is my fault.

 

[Episkopos]

I had another thought on this.
Concerning preaching both in season and out of season, I think it is preaching when the Holy Spirit comes upon and amidst and also still preaching when it’s not raining like that. But I think I saw something else too. A division that would go something like this: preach the word always. Be ready in season (when it’s raining the Spirit and is easy because it’s Him moving and coming both upon the preacher in effectiveness and amidst all, showering and softening the ground to make it pliable).
And also preach out of season (when it’s not raining the Spirit on and amidst and greater patience and self restraint and endurance is needed to correct, rebuke, exhort and labor).

Im really focused on what is my fault. I’m not focused on what is not my fault but on what IS my fault. In season is easy, you just surrender and get out of the way and speak. Out of season is not easy and is when it is more likely for me to default to deep seated habits of the flesh that still linger deeper in me, if not careful. And there’s some element of getting stuck in the habit and so preventing rain from coming by my own fault. In that case, having been given more in my weaning than others not weaned yet, I’m responsible and more is expected of me than of them.

It's like...whether we are present or absent from the Lord...we do all that is acceptable to God. Or, in season and out of season, as you say. That's where instruction in righteousness is so important.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's like...whether we are present or absent from the Lord...we do all that is acceptable to God. Or, in season and out of season, as you say. That's where instruction in righteousness is so important.

Yes. As far as I’ve been able to put it together, a lot of us who have not ever, or yet, actually walked IN the Spirit have, at times, had the Spirit come ON us or…anoint us? before. So I might be having a different view, maybe a more limited view than you, of what present or absent from the Lord means. I’ve only just begun to grasp and understand the Spirit on me and not on me and that I can mess that up through reverting back to habits of flesh and indulging in them.

 

[Johann]

You have to work for the balance between that Verse and these ones:
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers
All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things

Hi Stun
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all (mē pantes). The mē expects a negative answer with each group.


Are all apostles? No
Are all prophets, No
Are all teachers? No
Are all workers of miracles? No

The context....

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Would you say these extraordinary gifts are still in operation today when the apostles died?


1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Stun
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all (mē pantes). The mē expects a negative answer with each group.


Are all apostles? No
Are all prophets, No
Are all teachers? No
Are all workers of miracles? No

The context....

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Would you say these extraordinary gifts are still in operation today when the apostles died?


1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Amen!!

To answer your question, I have never seen some of those extraordinary gifts in action. Others I have begun to see manifested, albeit in weak operation and on rare occasion, with one walking in trust without wavering.
I have never accepted the teaching that because we don’t see promises or gifts manifest in and among us, that it means they have ceased by the will of God. That would be going by what I see happen around me rather than by scripture and trust. I always rather thought it was our weak and wavering trust not being grown and built up because we swallowed the bad leaven of that teaching and it has hindered and brought near to death. ( Wake up. Be alert. Strengthen the things which remain and were about to die. Remember what you received and heard, keep it and repent and turn back to trust. For I have not found your deeds completed and manifest in the sight of My God.)
I believe we are in a very weak state, not edified and built up in trust.
Where is the God of Paul?!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Stun
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all (mē pantes). The mē expects a negative answer with each group.


Are all apostles? No
Are all prophets, No
Are all teachers? No
Are all workers of miracles? No

The context....

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Would you say these extraordinary gifts are still in operation today when the apostles died?


1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

A Cessationist?

Nobody likes when people impute spiritual gifts to themselves. Especially the more striking ones...like apostle or prophet. Although those same people like imputing the righteousness of God to themselves. Go figure!

Religious conditioning, however, overcomes the natural abhorrence of self-imputation for the spiritual motivations like teacher and especially pastor. People will call themselves "pastor" as a title...and religious people have no problem with that. At least in the West. If someone gives themselves the title of "apostle" then most will get into a big snit.

I see the spiritual motivations as FUNCTIONS not titles. A spiritual person functions in the Spirit. A religious person puts on a show of something he/she is not. That's why it is the Pharisees who wear the robes...to be seen as something.

The gifts are spiritual endowments meant to edify others.

 

[Johann]

A Cessationist?

Nobody likes when people impute spiritual gifts to themselves. Especially the more striking ones...like apostle or prophet. Although those same people like imputing the righteousness of God to themselves.

Religious conditioning, however, overcomes the natural abhorrence of self-imputation for the spiritual motivations like teacher and especially pastor. People will call themselves "pastor" as a title...and religious people have no problem with that. At least in the West. If someone gives themselves the title of "apostle" then most will get into a big snit.

I see the spiritual motivations as FUNCTIONS not titles. A spiritual person functions in the Spirit. A religious person puts on a show of something he/she is not. That's why it is the Pharisees who wear the robes...to be seen as something.

The gifts are spiritual endowments meant to edify others.

If you don't mind, rabbi, I want Stun to think for herself, to search the scriptures for herself.

Shalom
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you don't mind, rabbi, I want Stun to think for herself, to search the scriptures for herself.

Shalom
J.

I gave you my answer. WITH scripture.

But you were doing so well. Why begin again to take offense and bite and devour?