Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

[Adventageous]

The Son’s Name is Jesus...

As I have shown, from scripture, the Son's name is not only Jesus.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In Daniel 10, it reads as if Jesus speaks to Daniel. Correct?
So then, at the end of the chapter, who did Michael help? Who did Michael stand with against “these forces?”

The one who “looks like a man” says Michael came and helped him. So who IS “him.”

Here’s the passage - and my question is, who was speaking to Daniel and saying Michael came to help him? It’s obvious that the one speaking is not Michael, so who is speaking? Who is the one described by Daniel as having eyes like flaming torches?

10 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a [a]message was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar; and the [b]message was true and it concerned great [c]conflict, but he understood the [d]message and had an understanding of the vision.

2 In those days, I, Daniel, had been mourning for three [e]entire weeks. 3 I did not eat any [f]tasty food, nor did meat or wine enter my mouth, nor did I use any ointment at all until the entire three weeks were completed. 4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the [g]Tigris, 5 I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great fear fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my complexion turned to [i]a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. 9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

Daniel Comforted​

10 Then behold, a hand touched me and shook me on my [j]hands and knees. 11 And he said to me, “Daniel, [k]you who are treasured, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand at your place, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing [l]in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the [m]latter days, because the vision pertains to the days still future.”

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I [n]turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, [o]one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision [p]anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.19 And he said, “[q]You who are treasured, do not be afraid. Peace be to you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I felt strengthened and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you [r]understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am leaving, and behold, the prince of [s]Greece is about to come.21 However, I will tell you what is recorded in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who [t]stands firmly with me against these forcesexcept Michael your prince.

 

[RLT63]

So God's Name is...the Word?

What Does the Phrase, “the Word of God” Mean? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: What Does the Phrase, “the Word of God” Mean?

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Adventageous]

Here’s the passage - and my question is, who was speaking to Daniel and saying Michael came to help him? It’s obvious that the one speaking is not Michael, so who is speaking? Who is the one described by Daniel as having eyes like flaming torches?

Daniel saw Jesus/Michael, but Gabriel is the one speaking and the one sent by Him, as he always was in the previous chapters. If you do a comparison study of the words and language, and events, you yourself will see that it is Gabriel speaking throughout. If you would like I can present those texts and passages in Daniel throughout, or, you may, upon your own, seek out those texts. I do not mind either way.

 

[RLT63]

Here’s the passage - and my question is, who was speaking to Daniel and saying Michael came to help him? It’s obvious that the one speaking is not Michael, so who is speaking? Who is the one described by Daniel as having eyes like flaming torches?

10 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a [a]message was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar; and the [b]message was true and it concerned great [c]conflict, but he understood the [d]message and had an understanding of the vision.

2 In those days, I, Daniel, had been mourning for three [e]entire weeks. 3 I did not eat any [f]tasty food, nor did meat or wine enter my mouth, nor did I use any ointment at all until the entire three weeks were completed. 4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the [g]Tigris, 5 I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.7 Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great fear fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. 8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my complexion turned to [i]a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. 9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

Daniel Comforted​

10 Then behold, a hand touched me and shook me on my [j]hands and knees. 11 And he said to me, “Daniel, [k]you who are treasured, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand at your place, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing [l]in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the [m]latter days, because the vision pertains to the days still future.”

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I [n]turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, [o]one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision [p]anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.19 And he said, “[q]You who are treasured, do not be afraid. Peace be to you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I felt strengthened and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you [r]understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am leaving, and behold, the prince of [s]Greece is about to come.21 However, I will tell you what is recorded in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who [t]stands firmly with me against these forcesexcept Michael your prince.

It’s probably not Jesus because he was restrained by the Prince of Persia so it could be an Angel but not Gabriel because Daniel recognized Gabriel, so it was likely another Angel.

Dan 9:21 - Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer,even the man Gabriel,whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning,being caused to fly swiftly,touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Daniel saw Jesus/Michael, but Gabriel is the one speaking and the one sent by Him, as he always was in the previous chapters. If you do a comparison study of the words and language, and events, you yourself will see that it is Gabriel speaking throughout. If you would like I can present those texts and passages in Daniel throughout, or, you may, upon your own, seek out those texts. I do not mind either way.

I know the texts and passages. The one where he hears a man call out, Gabriel explain to him. And the other.

I do not, however, agree this is Gabriel:
I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
But I heard the sound of his words…
When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision [p]anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”
Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me…
and [Daniel] said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

Daniel describes one looking like “a man“, who he calls “my Lord.” Then he again says “with human appearance” and again calls him “my Lord.”
He also describes the man dressed in linen very in depth - his face like lightning, eyes like flames, body like polished bronze, his words like the sound of a multitude.

But all that aside, if he’d seen Gabriel twice already, why does he not just say Gabriel came to him again. Why does he instead say, “a man” with “human appearance?”

Both previous times we are told it’s Gabriel speaking. Why assume it has to be Gabriel here too? Especially if it doesn’t specify who is speaking.

 

[RLT63]

I know the texts and passages. The one where he hears a man call out, Gabriel explain to him. And the other.

I do not, however, agree this is Gabriel:
I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
But I heard the sound of his words…
When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision [p]anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”
Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me…
and [Daniel] said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

Daniel describes one looking like “a man“, who he calls “my Lord.” Then he again says “with human appearance” and again calls him “my Lord.”
He also describes the man dressed in linen very in depth - his face like lightning, eyes like flames, body like polished bronze, his words like the sound of a multitude.

But all that aside, if he’d seen Gabriel twice already, why does he not just say Gabriel came to him again. Why does he instead say, “a man” with “human appearance?”

Both previous times we are told it’s Gabriel speaking. Why assume it has to be Gabriel here too? Especially if it doesn’t specify who is speaking.

Exactly

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Exactly

Lol…huh?
I thought you said it couldnt be Jesus because it says he was restrained?

 

[RLT63]

Lol…huh?
I thought you said it couldnt be Jesus because it says he was restrained?

I was agreeing that it’s not Gabriel. I said it’s probably not Jesus because he was restrained by the Prince of Persia. It could be but that would mean that Jesus needed Michael’s help. That would be difficult to understand

 

[Adventageous]

I know the texts and passages. The one where he hears a man call out, Gabriel explain to him. And the other.

I do not, however, agree this is Gabriel:
I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
But I heard the sound of his words…
When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision [p]anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength. 17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”
Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me…
and [Daniel] said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

Daniel describes one looking like “a man“, who he calls “my Lord.” Then he again says “with human appearance” and again calls him “my Lord.”
He also describes the man dressed in linen very in depth - his face like lightning, eyes like flames, body like polished bronze, his words like the sound of a multitude.

But all that aside, if he’d seen Gabriel twice already, why does he not just say Gabriel came to him again. Why does he instead say, “a man” with “human appearance?”

Both previous times we are told it’s Gabriel speaking. Why assume it has to be Gabriel here too? Especially if it doesn’t specify who is speaking.

Will you give me the opportunity to demonstrate my point from the scripture, and will you consider carefully what is presented, or are you set in what you presently believe? Let me know please. I will not present it, without such agreement.

 

[Adventageous]

I do not, however, agree this is Gabriel:
I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man dressed in linen, whose waist had a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.6 His body also was like topaz, his face [h]had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
But I heard the sound of his words…
When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless.

All of that, as I said, is Jesus/Michael, that was seen. The transition is at vs. 10, from what is seen and heard to another.

 

[ElieG12]

1) In Israel's time, Jesus Christ was the angel of Jehovah who fought the wars of the Israelites (Ex.23:20,21-23), and most Christians know that very well. The angel tells Daniel that Michael is the Prince of his people (Dan.10: 13,20,21; 12: 1). This angel is presented to Joshua as the Prince of Jehovah's Army when they were about to enter the promised land and begin the battles against those kingdoms of the nations (Jos.5:13-15). In Jehovah's Army there is only one Commander, Jesus Christ ... In the NT Jesus is described executing judgment with his angels (Mat.13:41-43,49,50; 16:27; 24:30,31; 25: 31-33; 26:53; etc);

2) The prince of the people of Daniel who is planted in favor of the children of his people, is the same angel that protects modern Israel (the people of God composed of the true protected by Jesus right now and obviously real Christians) ), because the angel speaks of him, Michael, in future terms, and mentions a future Daniel's people, who is still under Michael's care. When the angel tells him about Michael in the future, he calls him the Great Prince (Dan.12:1). Jesus is the protector of spiritual Israel since his ascension to heaven (Eph.1: 22; 5: 23,29,30; Col.1: 18). Jesus is the angel who presents Revelation to us with the stars in his hand, being in charge of the end time congregations. (Rev.1)

3) According to Rev.12: 7,10,12 it is Michael with his angels who drives Satan out of heaven. In Gen.3:15 it is said that it would be the seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent, and a little before mentioning that battle the birth of that offspring is described, and how that offspring, Michael, defeats Satan in a battle in heavens (Rev.12:5).

4) The Great Tribulation is described by the angel to Daniel; he tells him that it begins when Michael "stands up" (Dan.12:1). In Rev.19:11-16 and in 14:14,15 it can be seen that the Great Tribulation is initiated when Jesus stands up and begins to act, either as an enthroned King or as a divine Judge.

5) The angel tells Daniel: your people will escape, everyone who is found written in the book (Dan.12:1). The book of Revelation shows us that the people who escape from the Great Tribulation, being the future people of Daniel, is an international people (Rev. 7:9,10,13-17), and it also shows us that the names of the saved ones are in charge of Jesus (Rev. 3:5).

6) The angel tells Daniel in Dan.10:21 that only Michael can inform about the things pointed out in the Scripture of Truth and there is no one else like them. If Jesus were not Michael, then there would be someone with more knowledge than Jesus about the things that these Scriptures of Truth say, but that is impossible since 1Cor.1:24 calls Jesus the power of God and the wisdom of God.

7) Paul says that Jesus descends from heaven with an imperative call and the voice of the archangel in 1Thes.4:16. If Jesus were not the Archangel himself in all his functions as Commander of Jehovah's Army, that expression applied to someone who now has all authority under God himself, would be to diminish or lower that authority to a lesser degree (Mat.28:18; Rev. 17:14).

8) When the angel tells Daniel that Michael will stand up, he goes on to say "And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Dan.12:2). Paul related that quote to the fact that Jesus with the voice of the Archangel raises the dead loved ones of him first (1Thes.4: 16). Jesus speaks about his voice to raise the dead in John 5:25-30. According to the angel speaking to Daniel, all of this happens when Michael stands up. If Jesus is not Michael, then Michael would have a higher position than Jesus in heaven.

 

[Taken]

As I have shown, from scripture, the Son's name is not only Jesus.

It appears you have confused what Scripture does say with your commentary.

 

[Adventageous]

It appears you have confused what Scripture does say with your commentary.

You are suggesting that the names of the Son, Immanuel (Emmanuel), the Last Adam, Shiloh, David, et al, are not really the Son's names, but I quoted a commentary (or provided my own commentary) to arrive at those names for the Son?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was agreeing that it’s not Gabriel. I said it’s probably not Jesus because he was restrained by the Prince of Persia. It could be but that would mean that Jesus needed Michael’s help. That would be difficult to understand

Mmm…the word they use in Hebrew is a primitive root which can mean…sort of…withstood, in an accusative manner. And it’s only used/translated once in the same exact manner it is there. So…not any sort of…exactness in my mind when I study the word (which normally means stood or stand), and only one time out of many means restrained. I feel the word more as “stood against” in an accusative manner.
And even we can withstand/stand against Gods Spirit through unbelief, as in: He could do no miracles there because of their unbelief.
Im not hebrew speaking or taught, just my sense of the word.
Maybe @Episkopos might have time to comment on it since he has studied and speaks Hebrew. But he’s pretty busy usually so he might not want to take it on right now.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Will you give me the opportunity to demonstrate my point from the scripture, and will you consider carefully what is presented, or are you set in what you presently believe? Let me know please. I will not present it, without such agreement.

Probably not. I’ve gathered that it’s already been set out by Walter and Debbie in 5 extensive posts if I care to hear the full argument. But already I’ve run into a problem with the assumption that’s being made that it’s Gabriel speaking in chapter 10, as I’ve discussed.

 

[Adventageous]

Probably not. I’ve gathered that it’s already been set out by Walter and Debbie in 5 extensive posts if I care to hear the full argument.

As you will.

 

[Taken]

You are suggesting that the names of the Son, Immanuel (Emmanuel), the Last Adam, Shiloh, David, et al, are not really the Son's names, but I quoted a commentary (or provided my own commentary) to arrive at those names for the Son?

I will plainly say...

the Sons similitude to Adam, does not change the Sons Name to Adam, nor change Adam’s name To Jesus.

Numerous Languages of men, spoken or written, does not change the Sons Name.

My native language spoken and written is English...not, Hebrew, Yiddish, Greek, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Spanish, Zulu, French....and the multitude of other widely used world languages.

I have already plainly said more than once....an individual man is called by multiple names, Titles, descriptions....and the same applies to the Father, the Son...

The Father Established ONE Name Above All OTHER Names...

Phil 2:
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

If the Name you exalt And Bow To is....Adam, Michael, Mary, Peter, whatever that which does not expressly apply to the Son...that is you exercising your Freewill.

 

[Adventageous]

Phil 2:
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I am not in argument with the texts cited. I am not sure why you keep bringing up this point, as I am not against it, but for it. The thread is not whether the name "Jesus" is above every other name (no argument against from me), but whether the person/being Michael is another name/designation for the Son, just as is Immanuel (Emmanuel), the Last Adam, Shiloh, David, Israel, &c. What you are doing, is not addressing the main concern, but a point to which I am not against.

For surely you do not think that just because the Son has the name Jesus, that Immanuel is another person/being that will bow to Jesus? or the Last Adam is another person/being who bows to Jesus, or that Shiloh is another person/being who bows to Jesus, &c, &c.?

 

[mailmandan]

I see a clear distinction in the power and authority of Jesus and Michael the archangel when comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan and in Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel "dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy" against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is Lord and is God incarnate (Romans 10:9; John 1:1,14) yet Michael the archangel is an angel.

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