Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[Lizbeth]

The Reformation did one thing right and 2 things wrong. It allows for more personal advancement, but at the cost of many who will become their own "pope" and decide what truth is for themselves. Private interpretations have divided the church so that, in reality, a saint has as much struggle in one institution as the other. The Catholics get the Body right to some degree. The Protestants throw out the corporate unity for an individual pursuit that very few will be successful at. Jesus says that EVEN in the church of Sardis (reformation) there a few notables who are worthy.

Being crucified with Christ individually? Scripture says that Paul experienced this and that that is also available to us. The weaning aspect comes from bearing our OWN cross. I think you are looking at that. The more we bear our own cross the more we learn and grow in character. And this is necessary. We are to bear our outer man ...not live from there.

But being crucified has nothing to do with bearing our cross. The cross of Christ doesn't work like our cross. His cross kills us...instantly. Being dead means there is NO more effort of any kind except to remain submitted and surrendered to God. His burden in light.

Through the power of the cross we are liberated from the outer man so that the inner man can be TRANSLATED to live in His presence and power. Paul gloried in the cross because of this power to connect us intimately to a walk IN Christ...in HIS resurrection life.

Paul sought to WIN the approval of God into that level of walk. That approval comes when we count ALL things as dung in this world. We are accepted into the Beloved as we make the grade. We have to seek with ALL our heart to get noticed on that level. The eyes of the Lord are looking over the Earth to see if any understand His ways.

I'm already tiring I'm afraid, and having trouble keeping up, but I'll just say the following for now:

The bible says we have been crucified with Christ already:

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (whole lovely chapter is good to read of course)

This is the truth. Yes and amen. But the truth needs to be grasped and enforced on earth as it is in heaven. It's like this - we know the devil was defeated at the cross...that is the truth. Even though we still see him prowling around and working his evil.

Yes, we are running the race and endeavouring to get hold of and live up to what has been accomplished on the Cross.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Goodness sister, I don't know what on earth you're ascribing to me there. Yikes.

The truth of God trumps the facts that are on the ground. He is the King....what He says goes. When He ordains or decrees a thing, that is the truth. It needs to be by genuine FAITH, not by sight, and certainly not by "the power of positive thinking" or "name it and claim it" either.

Hmm…I can try again. After that, we have to just drop it for a few months at least and try again later.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I cut up carrots and celery and put them in the fridge SO THAT IT MIGHT BE MADE INTO a big pot of chicken noodle soup, or SO THAT the vegetables might be made into a pot of chicken soup.

Have I said here that I made a pot of chicken noodle soup? Should I, or anyone else, say - it is important to think it is ALREADY chicken soup? If I just believe it is a pot of soup already does it actually make it a pot of soup?

If I HOPE TO make soup, is it soup, past tense?

You HAVE said: there is a not yet aspect to some of it, (which I agree with), but then you went on to…use the one verse about being whatever you think, and you saw it in a way/interpretation that I don’t see it. So I tried to explain how I saw it. Maybe if we look at the entire passage we may get a different understanding than we’ve been taught -
23 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

So this verse, is it saying anything about how it is important to believe and trust what God says?
No. It is saying about the man that he says one thing (please, eat all you want!) but in his heart, thinking you are a pig, eating too much and taking too much of his food. It is talking more about the hypocrisy of presenting generosity outwardly while being the exact opposite of how you portray yourself to others. It’s saying, a man is not what he says, he is what he thinks and does in his heart.

Does any of it make more sense now? You took me to be ascribing something bad to you. I wasnt. I was just saying I think you were using/seeing the verse in a way it was not meant.
Now you can have the freedom to agree or disagree, but please understand, I was not talking any smack about you, I was just explaining my different thinking on it.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm already tiring I'm afraid, and having trouble keeping up, but I'll just say the following for now:

The bible says we have been crucified with Christ already:

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (whole lovely chapter is good to read of course)

This is the truth. Yes and amen. But the truth needs to be grasped and enforced on earth as it is in heaven. It's like this - we know the devil was defeated at the cross...that is the truth. Even though we still see him prowling around and working his evil.

Yes, we are running the race and endeavouring to get hold of and live up to what has been accomplished on the Cross.

The Old Man is not the same as the outer man. The Old Man is who we were BEFORE conversion. ALL who have the new birth are dead from the Old Man. The Old Man is dead. (notice I use capitals for Old Man:))

We have been converted from darkness to light in an INITIAL grace that makes us a new creation.

The Old man is dead in Romans 6...but then why is Paul still living under the power of sin in Romans 7?

Now it comes down to human nature. The outer crust or outer man that filters out anything that is not for self-interest. That part still needs to go...be crucified...to get to Romans 8.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Reformation did one thing right and 2 things wrong. It allows for more personal advancement, but at the cost of many who will become their own "pope" and decide what truth is for themselves. Private interpretations have divided the church so that, in reality, a saint has as much struggle in one institution as the other. The Catholics get the Body right to some degree. The Protestants throw out the corporate unity for an individual pursuit that very few will be successful at. Jesus says that EVEN in the church of Sardis (reformation) there a few notables who are worthy.

Oh my gosh…the design is…genius and nefarious. To appear as a wonderful thing when in the design is destruction built in. Divide and conquer. Who cares if a few escape if the mass are bound? I finally understand the verse, appearing as an angel of light. I need to percolate this. It’s so ugly I don’t want to but I’ve given up on trying to get away from understanding war just because it feels wrong that a woman should do it.

Being crucified with Christ individually? Scripture says that Paul experienced this and that that is also available to us. The weaning aspect comes from bearing our OWN cross. I think you are looking at that. The more we bear our own cross the more we learn and grow in character. And this is necessary. We are to bear our outer man ...not live from there.

But being crucified has nothing to do with bearing our cross. The cross of Christ doesn't work like our cross. His cross kills us...instantly. Being dead means there is NO more effort of any kind except to remain submitted and surrendered to God. His burden in light.

Through the power of the cross we are liberated from the outer man so that the inner man can be TRANSLATED to live in His presence and power. Paul gloried in the cross because of this power to connect us intimately to a walk IN Christ...in HIS resurrection life.

Paul sought to WIN the approval of God into that level of walk. That approval comes when we count ALL things as dung in this world. We are accepted into the Beloved as we make the grade. We have to seek with ALL our heart to get noticed on that level. The eyes of the Lord are looking over the Earth to see if any understand His ways.

Whew, a lot here I never saw in quite the way you explain it. Stupendous Epi. A lot to meditate on here.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think there are two sides to some things though and those who only take one side or the other are often arguing at cross purposes.

Yes! You have seen quite a lot here. Maybe even more than you yet know.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Old Man is not the same as the outer man. The Old Man is who we were BEFORE conversion. ALL who have the new birth are dead from the Old Man. The Old Man is dead. (notice I use capitals for Old Man:))

We have been converted from darkness to light in an INITIAL grace that makes us a new creation.

The Old man is dead in Romans 6...but then why is Paul still living under the power of sin in Romans 7?

Now it comes down to human nature. The outer crust or outer man that filters out anything that is not for self-interest. That part still needs to go...be crucified...to get to Romans 8.

This one goes slightly above my head but not quite so far that I can’t grasp it at all.
I need to think about it too. :)
I see it all in 3 stages kind of? World, flesh, devil…

 

[Lizbeth]

Hmm…I can try again. After that, we have to just drop it for a few months at least and try again later.


I cut up carrots and celery and put them in the fridge SO THAT IT MIGHT BE MADE INTO a big pot of chicken noodle soup, or SO THAT the vegetables might be made into a pot of chicken soup.

Have I said here that I made a pot of chicken noodle soup? Should I, or anyone else, say - it is important to think it is ALREADY chicken soup? If I just believe it is a pot of soup already does it actually make it a pot of soup?

If I HOPE TO make soup, is it soup, past tense?

You HAVE said: there is a not yet aspect to some of it, (which I agree with), but then you went on to…use the one verse about being whatever you think, and you saw it in a way/interpretation that I don’t see it. So I tried to explain how I saw it. Maybe if we look at the entire passage we may get a different understanding than we’ve been taught -
23 When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:

2 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.

4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

So this verse, is it saying anything about how it is important to believe and trust what God says?
No. It is saying about the man that he says one thing (please, eat all you want!) but in his heart, thinking you are a pig, eating too much and taking too much of his food. It is talking more about the hypocrisy of presenting generosity outwardly while being the exact opposite of how you portray yourself to others. It’s saying, a man is not what he says, he is what he thinks and does in his heart.

Does any of it make more sense now? You took me to be ascribing something bad to you. I wasnt. I was just saying I think you were using/seeing the verse in a way it was not meant.
Now you can have the freedom to agree or disagree, but please understand, I was not talking any smack about you, I was just explaining my different thinking on it.

I think you'll find that expression in the 2 Cor 5 verse can be used to refer either to something already accomplished or to something future.

Regarding the Proverbs verse sometimes we can find a little bit deeper wisdom in something written that is beyond the immediate context.

 

[Lizbeth]

The Old Man is not the same as the outer man. The Old Man is who we were BEFORE conversion. ALL who have the new birth are dead from the Old Man. The Old Man is dead. (notice I use capitals for Old Man:))

We have been converted from darkness to light in an INITIAL grace that makes us a new creation.

The Old man is dead in Romans 6...but then why is Paul still living under the power of sin in Romans 7?

Now it comes down to human nature. The outer crust or outer man that filters out anything that is not for self-interest. That part still needs to go...be crucified...to get to Romans 8.

What is the "body of sin" that has been destroyed....? I keep thinking the old man and outer man are the same thing. I've been thinking the inner man is the new man because it has been reNEWed. And that old man/false outer man covering has been defeated and conquered by Christ but we don't necessarily yet SEE it completely put under His feet. That's what we're aiming and gunning for.

 

[Episkopos]

What is the "body of sin" that has been destroyed....? I keep thinking the old man and outer man are the same thing. I've been thinking the inner man is the new man because it has been reNEWed. And that old man/false outer man covering has been defeated and conquered by Christ but we don't necessarily yet SEE it completely put under His feet. That's what we're aiming and gunning for.

Actually we put on the New Man as an entirety...Putting on Christ...His anointing. This is a gift of grace. Our inner man is weak without that anointing ON us. Then the life that is hidden in the inner man is drawn out and empowered as the outer man is crucified (put out of action).

All believers have put off the Old Man...at regeneration. But the wilderness walk is about carrying our cross (the outer man) until he is crucified. (if ever)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think you'll find that expression in the 2 Cor 5 verse can be used to refer either to something already accomplished or to something future.

Yep…so can the instance of the verse I used. But if it isn’t already accomplished in me personally, then it’s something I hope for, hope to see/experience/know/see manifest in my life, not something I pretend as if I have or understand, or that I think and so therefore make it be accomplished by thinking it is so.

Regarding the Proverbs verse sometimes we can find a little bit deeper wisdom in something written that is beyond the immediate context.

Yes we can. Do you want to share it? I’ll listen. :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What is the "body of sin" that has been destroyed....?

Good question. I’ve never given that verse much thought yet or picked it apart.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We are pretty sure it isn’t meaning destroying of our physical body, right?
I have an overarching thought of “body of sin” as…a whole system or…the entire thing, but it’s a thing I could not convey exactly because in my head its a…concept of a whole large thing, with moving parts that make up the whole thing. It’s like…body of sin is like an “encyclopedia of sin.”
Like a “body of knowledge,” what does that convey to you?
Or…a “body of evidence.”
Body of sin. Do you have an outline in your head now, even if it’s more an image than anything easily explained?

​

And now, reading the verse again, I find I can sort of grasp that my old man died like this: I was Alive to the world and dead to God but now, I am alive to God and dead to the world.​

So I see the verse this way - I have been crucified to the world I once was alive to and now I have a new hidden life, in all it’s perplexities, that continually becomes more real to me than the outer temporary thing…And He has done this so that He will be able to do away with the whole body of sin/system of sin, so I won’t forever be a slave to it but can be free from it.

So once again,like with the other verse, what part is already done and what part do I hope for and await? You are reading the verse as if the entire thing has already occurred. Part of it has but part of it hasn’t. If it had, you would have the understanding of the Whole verse and would no longer be trying to figure it out.

This goes to what I’ve been saying. If your mind was not in the process of being renewed so that you could become free from the body of sin, you would not be wondering what it means. You would know. You do not understand everything you read yet because it hasn’t all happened with you yet. It hasn’t all happened with me yet either.
Do you like….ever struggle with anger in your heart and find that every time you say, I need to let go of this and forgive her or him but the anger and resentment creeps back again later. I know it’s murder according to Jesus. I seem to not be able to ever fully get rid of it. I don’t want to be angry, hurt, resentful about how she treated me - I want to really forgive her, but I keep doing what I don’t want. I can’t do what I want to do. There is something in me. It’s…sin in me.

If Thats you, how can you then say the rest of the verse has already occurred? If you still have that sin in you still harassing you, the body of sin being done away with has not yet happened but you hope for it. You think…well, I don’t know how He will free me from the harassment I’m so sick of but I keep trusting He will. I want that freedom. I look forward to it even though I can’t really comprehend it…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,

I cut up some carrots and celery. That has occurred.

that the body of sin might be destroyed,

So that I might later make a pot of chicken soup. That has not occurred.

that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It’s going to be delicious. I’m looking forward to that. Hoping for.

 

[Lizbeth]

Actually we put on the New Man as an entirety...Putting on Christ...His anointing. This is a gift of grace. Our inner man is weak without that anointing ON us. Then the life that is hidden in the inner man is drawn out and empowered as the outer man is crucified (put out of action).

All believers have put off the Old Man...at regeneration. But the wilderness walk is about carrying our cross (the outer man) until he is crucified. (if ever)

I don't disagree with this. Just trying to sort out the terminology regarding old/new man and outer/inner man.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yep…so can the instance of the verse I used. But if it isn’t already accomplished in me personally, then it’s something I hope for, hope to see/experience/know/see manifest in my life, not something I pretend as if I have or understand, or that I think and so therefore make it be accomplished by thinking it is so.

Yes we can. Do you want to share it? I’ll listen. :).

Yes, me too, though I think of it as something that is already in us manifesting.
We can leave that other thing for another time I think. Don't want to go too far off the thread topic.
Bless you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Good question. I’ve never given that verse much thought yet or picked it apart.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We are pretty sure it isn’t meaning destroying of our physical body, right?
I have an overarching thought of “body of sin” as…a whole system or…the entire thing, but it’s a thing I could not convey exactly because in my head its a…concept of a whole large thing, with moving parts that make up the whole thing. It’s like…body of sin is like an “encyclopedia of sin.”
Like a “body of knowledge,” what does that convey to you?
Or…a “body of evidence.”
Body of sin. Do you have an outline in your head now, even if it’s more an image than anything easily explained?

​

And now, reading the verse again, I find I can sort of grasp that my old man died like this: I was Alive to the world and dead to God but now, I am alive to God and dead to the world.​

So I see the verse this way - I have been crucified to the world I once was alive to and now I have a new hidden life, in all it’s perplexities, that continually becomes more real to me than the outer temporary thing…And He has done this so that He will be able to do away with the whole body of sin/system of sin, so I won’t forever be a slave to it but can be free from it.

So once again,like with the other verse, what part is already done and what part do I hope for and await? You are reading the verse as if the entire thing has already occurred. Part of it has but part of it hasn’t. If it had, you would have the understanding of the Whole verse and would no longer be trying to figure it out.

This goes to what I’ve been saying. If your mind was not in the process of being renewed so that you could become free from the body of sin, you would not be wondering what it means. You would know. You do not understand everything you read yet because it hasn’t all happened with you yet. It hasn’t all happened with me yet either.
Do you like….ever struggle with anger in your heart and find that every time you say, I need to let go of this and forgive her or him but the anger and resentment creeps back again later. I know it’s murder according to Jesus. I seem to not be able to ever fully get rid of it. I don’t want to be angry, hurt, resentful about how she treated me - I want to really forgive her, but I keep doing what I don’t want. I can’t do what I want to do. There is something in me. It’s…sin in me.

If Thats you, how can you then say the rest of the verse has already occurred? If you still have that sin in you still harassing you, the body of sin being done away with has not yet happened but you hope for it. You think…well, I don’t know how He will free me from the harassment I’m so sick of but I keep trusting He will. I want that freedom. I look forward to it even though I can’t really comprehend it…

It was a rhetorical question actually. The verse itself says the old man has been crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed. The body of sin is our old man. Yes, rather than just dealing with individual sins/iniquities, in the manner that the Jews tried to deal with it under the Law, in Christ it has all collectively, wholistically, in the body of our old man (fleshly carnal nature) been crucified with Christ and destroyed. And thus in Him through faith in Him, we are a new creation, a new man.

Scripture says this has already been accomplished, and that we're to reckon it so. But the thing is, we're not all realizing it fully and walking in it fully. (The way I understand it, everyone is in different stages of growth individually. Some are still carnal, others have been going on to perfection and are part way matured, and some may be fully matured and walking in the full stature of Christ.)

I have sometimes had a tendency to overthink things and end up making it more complicated than it needs to be. We need to have our minds at rest even while we're knocking on the door and striving to understand (paradox there) and just be in receiving mode to receive His light/illumination of the scripture. Easier said than done sometimes. Too much dicing and splicing can lead us off track and cause us to miss the truth in a snapshot, so to speak. The things of God aren't logical they are spiritually discerned and we receive it in spirit - thinking of it in terms of it being the washing of the water of His word, rather than the analyzing of it per se. And it is a matter of growth and "buying the truth" over time, as we are paying the price to follow Jesus and buying that extra oil along the way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It was a rhetorical question actually

I don’t believe you on that. I went back and read that post again. But it doesn’t matter.

You believe as a member named “marks“ does, maybe you two would enjoy to talk. I cannot think the same way.

It was nice talking with you Lizbeth. :)

 

[Lizbeth]

In the OT we read that Abraham was imputed (attributed) with having righteousness by faith. We read...​

Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

What kind of righteousness was that? It was human righteousness. Abraham grasped that God could do anything...like a child would. He did what was possible for men to do in their own strength.



Another example of this same kind (human kind) of righteousness is shown to us with Phinehas. He was was justified by WORKS...that he did in his own strength. Again, same level of righteousness.

“Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.” “And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.” Ps. 106: 30, 31

Neither of these examples points to grace. God is merely counting righteousness to those who have shown their own initiative towards right doing.

​

The confusion comes by misunderstanding Paul. ​

​

​

Romans 4:22-25 KJV​

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

People are taught to self-justify based on what only God can do in the future. An inheritance is only worth something if we are faithful till the end. In the meantime we are to move on into the high calling in Christ...to enter into Christ now. ​

So we see we can be justified both by faith AND by works.

But Paul only speaks of faith because it is scaleable into the faith OF Christ.

So we can be justified in our own faith (and works). BUT.....we can only enter into Christ by faith. No amount of works lets us into resurrection life in the here and now. To walk in His salvation we must enter into Him by faith. And the faith to do that is a gift. The gift of faith.



Gal. 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."


Faith is given to those who already believe. In Christ we go from faith to faith...from our level of faith to His. On the holiness scale ALL are missing the mark. But the faith OF Christ (His faith not ours) is given (as a gift) to those who have already believed (with their human faith).

So in the NT we have 2 levels of faith to consider. The human faith is as good as Abrahams' in that it is for an inheritance on judgment day. But there is the faith OF Christ to consider...which we apprehend by entering personally into Him to walk as He walked.

Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness (actually "freedom") of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Where is the faith that sanctifies us found? It is found only by entering INTO Christ. This is above the justification of men based on human faith and works. This is a supernatural faith that causes us to walk in Zion as Jesus walked. Even the smallest amount of this faith can move mountains. It translates us into the kingdom of His dear Son...right now!

Now that I've been able to look into this a bit.....Romans 4 says it is the "righteousness of faith" that Abraham had imputed to him, and that we receive. And in Romans 5 it is called the "gift of righteousness", so I don't consider that this righteousness is the filthy rags of our own righteousness. No, it is the gift of God and is imputed without works (so it can't be our own).

The bible says the faith we have is not of our own either, when we receive Christ, that no man may boast, so it must be His faith....we receive it as a free gift when His spirit comes to dwell in us. Even though like everything else, it may be mixed with some of our own fleshly, God-limiting mental belief and we may not yet be matured to be walking in the faith of Christ fully.

This is hard to grasp as well as to explain, but it is also in Romans 4 where it says God quickeneth the dead and calls those things that be not as though they are. That is the imputation. We're dead in sins but God in His mercy calls us alive even though our "body is dead because of sin" We're unrighteous but God in His mercy calls us righteous and gives it as a gift. Accounted worthy even though we're not worthy. Given as an unspeakable gift that we then need to reckon it so and learn to live up to the truth that He has declared to be so. His Spirit in us is what sanctifies us even if we're not fully walking in His spirit yet. (And if anyone has not the Spirit they are none of His.)

 

[Lizbeth]

I don’t believe you on that. I went back and read that post again. But it doesn’t matter.

You believe as a member named “marks“ does, maybe you two would enjoy to talk. I cannot think the same way.

It was nice talking with you Lizbeth. :)

It's sometimes easy to express things badly as well as to misunderstand things in writing. I was wondering at the same time what Episkopos thought the body of sin was with respect to old man or outer man. Probably didn't come out right. (My brain is having trouble getting traction these days.)

 

[Episkopos]

Now that I've been able to look into this a bit.....Romans 4 says it is the "righteousness of faith" that Abraham had imputed to him, and that we receive. And in Romans 5 it is called the "gift of righteousness", so I don't consider that this righteousness is the filthy rags of our own righteousness. No, it is the gift of God and is imputed without works (so it can't be our own).

This is where multiple references are needed to get the full picture. :) But I invite this proper challenge because I see an honesty in it.

It's easy to miss the different levels of faith...or from faith to faith. As I said previously...faith is scaleable whereas works are not. What does "scaleable" mean? It means that when we believe in Christ the same way Abraham believed God....there is a new faith...THE faith, we enter into.

Abraham's faith was his own faith...not the faith OF Christ.

So how do we get the upgrade into the faith OF Christ. Through our faith and grace. God gives the gift of faith to those who believe. Our faith is like a heaving line and Christ's faith is like the attached towing line with the power to do what is impossible for us to do. Moving mountains? His faith is a gift. Our own faith is the measure we have ALL received. How we spend our measure of faith is up to us. Putting our trust in religion or in God, for instance.

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Gal. 3:22

Key word here is "given". Faith is given to those who already believe. Faith that enters INTO Christ is a gift of grace. The requisite amount of faith on our part to "believe" is ALL our faith...like Abraham. The standard of ALL has never changed. We must love God with ALL...or else it is insufficient.

Does that mean that by believing about Christ and accepting Him as our saviour that somehow we have the righteousness of God on us...arbitrarily? No. We must be accepted just like Abraham was.

Otherwise we have created a religion whereby we justify ourselves for our own belief. Who is measuring the faith? Only God can do that. Only self-justification makes claims to have believed sufficiently to be compared with Abraham. And Abraham did NOT claim to be justified. How very unlike so many among us.

The bible says the faith we have is not of our own either, when we receive Christ, that no man may boast, so it must be His faith....we receive it as a free gift when His spirit comes to dwell in us. Even though like everything else, it may be mixed with some of our own fleshly, God-limiting mental belief and we may not yet be matured to be walking in the faith of Christ fully.

Holiness doesn't mix with sin...at all. Of course the faith OF Christ is the vehicle that translates us into the kingdom walk. But being a Christian religionist doesn't give us the power to walk as Jesus walked. Look at all the sin and division among those who claim to be examples of God's righteousness. They are not. Jesus will reject them...as in...I never knew you. But they did many signs and much ministry in His name? On which level of faith? Human or divine? Surely if they had been translated into the level of the faith OF Christ to walk in intimacy with Him...Jesus would not be able to say that.

There are 2 billion Christians in the world. How many walk as Jesus walked?

This is hard to grasp as well as to explain, but it is also in Romans 4 where it says God quickeneth the dead and calls those things that be not as though they are. That is the imputation.

Not so much. God will never impute something on someone that is not there. God is not into make-believe. He is God. He calls into existence anything He wants. He gives grace to do miracles to do whatever He wants. The only ones who impute falsely...are people!
If a boy takes a stick and says its a gun...that's called make-believe. A false imputation but one that is innocent. When Jesus turned water into wine...was that make believe? Was it still water? Or did Jesus actually change water into wine so that people could get drunk on it?

When we are translated into God's kingdom...we really go there. No need to pretend. Now if God takes a stick and says its a gun...you can do some real shooting practice with it!


You have to get over this "imputation" thing. :)

It is merely a way for people to self-justify. To pretend. People like to make believe. (Like the many who will be rejected for claiming lies). But there is nothing hidden that shall not be made manifest. That's the opposite of what people do.

We're dead in sins but God in His mercy calls us alive even though our "body is dead because of sin"

We have this treasure in earthen vessels. His grace quickens us to life from the dead...to walk exactly as Jesus did...by abiding in Him.

"He that saith he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:6

The gift of grace takes us above sin...or else its just our own religious beliefs at work.

We're unrighteous but God in His mercy calls us righteous and gives it as a gift. Accounted worthy even though we're not worthy. Given as an unspeakable gift that we then need to reckon it so and learn to live up to the truth that He has declared to be so.

The unspeakable gift is the full measure of grace. Under that covering we learn and grow into worthiness. As we are able to walk in a yielded (crucified) outer man...our inner man is empowered to grow into the likeness of Christ.

His Spirit in us is what sanctifies us even if we're not fully walking in His spirit yet.

No. This is not so. A seed is not the same as a crop. The imperishable seed is there as a talent that remains buried (parable of the talents) until we are broken in the outer man...THEN we can bear eternal fruit. If the seed itself made us holy, then the wicked servant who had left His talent buried would not have been cast into outer darkness (for having NOT been broken to bear fruit). So then that doctrine is dangerous for the immature who have not known the full walk in the Spirit. When someone walks at that level they are walking in Zion where there is no spot or wrinkle of sin. Walking in the light allows for no sin whatsoever. All this is about the individual believer.

In the assembly, the holiness of the saint covers the assembly as that person is recognized as being holy (if they truly are, of course). If we receive a prophet in the name of a prophet, we have a prophet's reward. A saint sanctifies his/her family as they come under his/her guidance.

We need the real presence of God..not more religious fiction!

(And if anyone has not the Spirit they are none of His.)

Here again, there are 2 levels of ownership..otherwise Jesus could not spit out those who are His church (Laodicean).

Initial grace...into the Body...into the wilderness walk. Full measure of grace into full ownership as a person is CRUCIFIED within...into the promise...the Promised Land.

Those that are Christ's (possessed by Him) have been crucified with Him so as to walk with Him in the new resurrection life.

 

[Episkopos]

If the way into life is narrow, and many try but few are able to enter in...where does that leave the many who believe they have been imputed to be on the same level as God in righteousness...without having entered in?