The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[marks]

We need to be honest with ourselves, and stop making exceptions for sin!

When we come to accept all sin for what it is - dead actions and dead thoughts of dead men - we can come to see how life is riddled with it, and can really begin to live otherwise, focusing not on controlling our bad acts, but focusing on living our Christ life, and avoiding the whole death-trip entirely.

Wrong ideas about sin will send us off course, will force us to not accept some Scriptures, to have to "re-imagine" them so we can make it all "fit".

So long as someone is "ticking boxes", didn't do that, didn't do this, didn't do the other thing, I'm OK, they are missing the point about what sanctification really is. Sanctification is not a system of avoiding bad acts and doing good acts. It is living the Christ life instead of the flesh life.

We should become able to recognize what is Spirit, and what is flesh, and learning the Bible gives us that ability. But it won't be effective in us if we are not willing to subject ourselves to ALL it says.

Playing one passage against another gives us the excuses for sin that we look for. Harmonizing all of them without having to "re-imagine" any will give us what we need.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Thus let no man , woman or child overlook the many warnings given us from Christ and later the apostels .
Dont overlook those IFS AS IF they dont apply . Gotta accept it all and rightly divide the word of truth .
I have a homework assignment . Look at how often JESUS warned on earth and from heaven the believers themselves .
Take heed to all those IFS and what follows those IFS as well . DONT pit scrip against scrip , LEARN IT ALL and EMBRACE IT ALL .
ER WORD is GOOD for our soul .

 

[-Phil]

No reason to divide over a minor issue like this. The importance is agreeing that Christ is God, and His grace saves and that grace leads us to live holy lives (glorifying Him).

Sounds lovely and I’ve certainly no problem with it.
But what’s relevant is the misunderstanding is felt, and only more so in all which follows.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sounds lovely and I’ve certainly no problem with it.
But what’s relevant is the misunderstanding is felt, and only more so in all which follows.

So in your experience, how many Christians have you actually seen misunderstand something because the word “ism” was attached to a word? Even the term “Sinless Perfectionism” can be Googled with reference to many articles on that topic (Whereby a person can understand what is being discussed). Granted, most Christians reject the idea of being perfect and or overcoming sin based on a personal preference or personal belief they want to be true (over what the Bible actually says). But in my experience on talking on this topic for many years, I do not recall anyone being confused as to what “Sinless Perfectionism” meant vs. say: ”Sinless Perfection.” They mean the same thing. But again, this is a minor issue and not really worthy to debate over in my opinion.

What I would like to know is how Jesus changed your life. What I would like to know is what is in your heart to do good towards others for the LORD (Because His love and grace compels you).

 

[Lizbeth]

I lost my salvation by continuing to sin in my heart. This was after He had delivered me from addictions, and forgiven my evil past. We may not fully understand the spiritual aspects of how and when The Lord forgives again, if ever. I live in hope, and despair at the same time.
Jesus said to the man He delivered 'go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you'

I don't know the details of your specific situation, but I believe there comes a time when we each begin to realize that "in me dwells no good thing". Our righteousness needs to come from the Lord, His Spirit, as we seek Him for it, because we start to realize our lack, that we have it not of our own. He is in process of cleansing the inside of our vessel, not just our outward behaviour. I hope you will be encouraged to stay in the race, and keep trusting Jesus even when He seems to be absent. As Peter said, "Lord to whom would we go...you have the words of eternal life." I think it was king Hezekiah if memory serves, where the Lord left him for a time in order to "know what was in his heart". The Lord exposes the hidden things of the heart, in order to cleanse us of them.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

I don't know the details of your specific situation, but I believe there comes a time when we each begin to realize that "in me dwells no good thing". Our righteousness needs to come from the Lord, His Spirit, as we seek Him for it, because we start to realize our lack, that we have it not of our own. He is in process of cleansing the inside of our vessel, not just our outward behaviour. I hope you will be encouraged to stay in the race, and keep trusting Jesus even when He seems to be absent. As Peter said, "Lord to whom would we go...you have the words of eternal life." I think it was king Hezekiah if memory serves, where the Lord left him for a time in order to "know what was in his heart". The Lord exposes the hidden things of the heart, in order to cleanse us of them.

Hi Lizbeth, He is there, I'm just not where I was. I have experienced His absence, and that was the worst seven years of my life. I'll never give up. Thankyou for your encouraging words dear sister.

 

[Lambano]

I lost my salvation by continuing to sin in my heart. This was after He had delivered me from addictions, and forgiven my evil past. We may not fully understand the spiritual aspects of how and when The Lord forgives again, if ever. I live in hope, and despair at the same time.
Jesus said to the man He delivered 'go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you'

Hi, Second Chronicles. Long time, no see. How are you doing?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, but rather, was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or trouble, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:32-35; 38-39)

Hang on to that hope, dear sister.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Hi, Second Chronicles. Long time, no see. How are you doing?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, but rather, was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or trouble, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hang on to that hope, dear sister.

Hi Lambano, got a bit weary of forums, but "Hope does not dissapoint..." :) thankyou for your encouragement. Gb

 

[Lizbeth]

All there is is perfection.
Perfectionism is an ism:
A “distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory”.
An “oppressive and especially discriminatory attitude or belief”.

The ism of perfectionism feels off to the perfection aware of the ism.
Perfection which is no doctrine or theory, and is all doctrines & theories.
Perfection which is causeless, or, without cause.
Perfection which is not oppressive or discriminatory.

I think of "perfectionISM' as being of the flesh. People who are never satisfied with themselves and always trying to be perfect....it comes from either a sense of inferiority or pride or maybe both. But the desire for perfect-ness that the Lord is after and which we are aiming for, I believe is of His spirit. To my understanding it has to do with entering a state of being "spiritual", as in the apostle referring to some as "you who are spiritual", as opposed to still being a carnal believer. Reminded of Adam and Eve and how God pronounced then and everything He created to be "good"....but the Lord never said they were yet perfect. That comes through the Potter working on us clay pots, and refining us like silver....doesn't seem as though we start out this race being perfect. But as it says in Heb. 6 we need to leave the elementary things and "go on to perfection."

 

[Lambano]

Hi Lambano, got a bit weary of forums, but "Hope does not dissapoint..." :) thankyou for your encouragement. Gb

Just wanted to say that if you haven't permanently walked away from Jesus, if you are still hoping in Him, then you haven't lost it. And those verses say why you can trust Him.

 

[-Phil]

So in your experience, how many Christians have you actually seen misunderstand something because the word “ism” was attached to a word?

In direct experience Christian is a thought not a (separate) thing ‘in’ perception (seen). So, zero.
I’ve never experienced a Christian, or anyone else for that matter, which actually understands Christianity.
In this experience however, it seems Jesus was crystal clear. Perfectly clear.

Even the term “Sinless Perfectionism” can be Googled with reference to many articles on that topic (Whereby a person can understand what is being discussed).

But can it be noticed understanding is accredited to a believed thought… upon the foundation of a complete assumption...therein implying there are two where there is not, which is the only point of the so called articles, discussions, and suffixes?
If & when This is recognized, what then is - what if anything remains of “sinless perfectionism”?

Granted, most Christians reject the idea of being perfect and or overcoming sin based on a personal preference or personal belief they want to be true (over what the Bible actually says).

Yes, of course. The idea desired to be true is sin. Then there is an idea of perfectionism, or, being without sin.
For an idea to seem to be true requires overlooking the simple & self evident… that it is, an idea.
Therein that which is overlooking believes it is findable in the looking, and continues overlooking.

But in my experience on talking on this topic for many years, I do not recall anyone being confused as to what “Sinless Perfectionism” meant vs. say: ”Sinless Perfection.” They mean the same thing. But again, this is a minor issue and not really worthy to debate over in my opinion.

Perhaps they don’t mean the same thing, and this is why there are the two different terms… but if someone saw this clearly, you would only believe they were confused, since it isn’t compatible with the belief that they mean the same thing.

What I would like to know is how Jesus changed your life. What I would like to know is what is in your heart to do good towards others for the LORD (Because His love and grace compels you).

Why? What’s the relevance?

 

[-Phil]

I think of "perfectionISM' as being of the flesh. People who are never satisfied with themselves and always trying to be perfect....it comes from either a sense of inferiority or pride or maybe both.

Inferiority & pride are symptomatic, while the a priori root belief is people.

But the desire for perfect-ness that the Lord is after and which we are aiming for, I believe is of His spirit.

Similarly, when desire is accredited to a ‘secondary source’, the true source of desire is overlooked, and therein ‘the devil’ as it were, carries on by accrediting ‘the devil’ as a separate entity, as well.

To my understanding it has to do with entering a state of being "spiritual", as in the apostle referring to some as "you who are spiritual", as opposed to still being a carnal believer.

The one which could ‘enter a state’ does not actually exist, and therein is the perpetuation of the overlooking. I mean, one could enter Indiana from Ohio, but spiritually speaking, there are no “states”. “States“ is like “clouds”. Entering a state of being is like saying “entering a cloud of the sun”. It is precisely the clouds which veil the sun, the clouds are not of the sun.

Reminded of Adam and Eve and how God pronounced then and everything He created to be "good"....but the Lord never said they were yet perfect. That comes through the Potter working on us clay pots, and refining us like silver....doesn't seem as though we start out this race being perfect. But as it says in Heb. 6 we need to leave the elementary things and "go on to perfection."

It was never said there was bad, such that good was half of a duality.
If you never said a dog is a unicorn, it doesn’t mean there are unicorns.

 

[Lizbeth]

Inferiority & pride are symptomatic, while the a priori root belief is people.


Similarly, when desire is accredited to a ‘secondary source’, the true source of desire is overlooked, and therein ‘the devil’ as it were, carries on by accrediting ‘the devil’ as a separate entity, as well.


The one which could ‘enter a state’ does not actually exist, and therein is the perpetuation of the overlooking. I mean, one could enter Indiana from Ohio, but spiritually speaking, there are no “states”. “States“ is like “clouds”. Entering a state of being is like saying “entering a cloud of the sun”. It is precisely the clouds which veil the sun, the clouds are not of the sun.


It was never said there was bad, such that good was half of a duality.
If you never said a dog is a unicorn, it doesn’t mean there are unicorns.

I don't know if I'm understanding you very well, I'm sorry, but just going by the parables and analogies in the bible and thinking in terms of being like children growing to maturity...it's hard to pinpoint at exactly what point a child has become an adult (and even adults still keep learning and growing in wisdom etc). Biblically adulthood is at the age of thirty or when a person marries. There is the analogy of bride and bridegroom as concerns our relationship with the Lord, and references to wedding feast, etc. One's state of betrothal is not the same state one is in when married I think is fair enough to say.

(Of course, God's ways are not our ways, and with the Lord the way up is down....growing to maturity for a believer means becoming as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.)

 

[-Phil]

I don't know if I'm understanding you very well, I'm sorry, but just going by the parables and analogies in the bible and thinking in terms of being like children growing to maturity...it's hard to pinpoint at exactly what point a child has become an adult (and even adults still keep learning and growing in wisdom etc).

Equally ‘hard’ to pinpoint precisely when or how two ‘adults’ become one ‘child’.
Likewise, maybe God’s children are, by never having been.

Biblically adulthood is at the age of thirty or when a person marries.

Life Expectancy

There is the analogy of bride and bridegroom as concerns our relationship with the Lord, and references to wedding feast, etc. One's state of betrothal is not the same state one is in when married I think is fair enough to say.

It would be need be known what one being in a state is, which of course it can not be.

(Of course, God's ways are not our ways, and with the Lord the way up is down....growing to maturity for a believer means becoming as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.)

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Matthew 5:48

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In direct experience Christian is a thought not a (separate) thing ‘in’ perception (seen). So, zero.
I’ve never experienced a Christian, or anyone else for that matter, which actually understands Christianity.
In this experience however, it seems Jesus was crystal clear. Perfectly clear.

Quote the words of Jesus that defend you.
Also, quote the verses on the Bible’s teaching of perfection and how that is different from those who use Bible verses to defend the position of Sinless Perfectionism. If you cannot, you are simply striving over words to no profit.

Yes, of course. The idea desired to be true is sin. Then there is an idea of perfectionism, or, being without sin.
For an idea to seem to be true requires overlooking the simple & self evident… that it is, an idea.
Therein that which is overlooking believes it is findable in the looking, and continues overlooking.

Perhaps they don’t mean the same thing, and this is why there are the two different terms… but if someone saw this clearly, you would only believe they were confused, since it isn’t compatible with the belief that they mean the same thing.

Do you believe a Christian can overcome sin and or be perfect?

Why? What’s the relevance?

Grace gives us the ability to do the work (See 1 Corinthians 15:10). We learn about God’s grace by Scripture. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.
Ephesians 2:25-28 basically says that Christ gave himself for the church that he might sanctify it with the washing of the water of the Word so that he might present to himself a church that is holy and without blemish.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sounds lovely and I’ve certainly no problem with it.
But what’s relevant is the misunderstanding is felt, and only more so in all which follows.

I have never encountered any such misunderstandings in such discussions before. I have discussed this topic several times before over the years. So it seems like it is only a problem to you and not anyone else. So the burden of proof is on you to show where others have misunderstood.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

1 Corinthins 6:9-11

Charles Spurgeon:

“Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs repented of, and his conversion is a fiction.”

 

[-Phil]

Quote the words of Jesus that defend you.
Also, quote the verses on the Bible’s teaching of perfection and how that is different from those who use Bible verses to defend the position of Sinless Perfectionism. If you cannot, you are simply striving over words to no profit.

Direct experience is perfection and is certainly not in any need of defending.

Do you believe a Christian can overcome sin and or be perfect?

Any one can inspect & therein dispel any belief.

 

[-Phil]

I have never encountered any such misunderstandings in such discussions before. I have discussed this topic several times before over the years. So it seems like it is only a problem to you and not anyone else. So the burden of proof is on you to show where others have misunderstood.

It’s not a problem for me per se, as I’m not experiecing the discord of the misunderstanding. It’s just how it feels that’s relevant. There is no proof required for feeling.