The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[APAK]

So you believe the author is referring to how he was once lost in the context? What passage in context gives you that silly idea?
Also, the context says this:

Hebrews 3:1
“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,…”

In addition, the context is not dealing with Initial Salvation of how an unbeliever needs to be saved by the Messiah. It’s talking about how sin can harden a believer’s heart in departing from the living God. The Israelites later fell in wilderness due to sin (i.e. unbelief) is an example of their later departing God. Proof? The believed in putting the blood on the doorposts in the beginning. And… when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea by God parting the waters, they then later drank of that Rock, and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

It just seems like you are fighting with the text because you don’t like what it says.
Then again, this appears to be a mass hallucination or problem going on in the world of Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism.

You just do not get the context and who is the speaker and his audience do you?

The speaker was once lost you say? Now that's a good one. I would say everyone was born lost don't you think? What has this got to do with the subject at hand anyway?

I think maybe you might be a little lost, because you cannot even understand Heb 3:1., and its use of a similar type of group identifier 'holy brothers' for the same purpose I said the word 'we' is used in my last post.

And why are you hell bent on 'seeing' in these verses and others I've read of yours, a hardened heart or sinning by only a believer and usually not of an unbeliever. Amazing!

It's most probably due to your obsession that a genuine believer can actually lose their salvation, and that is not biblical. And then the verses you choose to attack others, and support your obsession must have audiences who are all believers. Else the game is over.

And why do you seem to believe that sin or sinning means lack of faith or unbelief in God and Yahshua etc.? Or maybe you do not. I just read this in many of your posts.

And do you believe that the rock spoken of in the wilderness was actually Jesus Christ? I hope not...

Here's some words on it for you..

For they drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the same spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Nowhere in that record of Moses striking the rock for water for the people to drink, is Jesus ever mentioned. It is a foreshadowing of the one who was to come, the one who was to follow and who would give living water.

This verse of 1 Cor 10:4b is not the typical run of the mill variety. It actually has three idioms in it. Be careful here to get it right.


1. The first idiom is obvious: no one clearly drank a physical drink. It was something they believed in pertaining to their spirit. their soul.

2. The second idiom means, they believed in the spiritual basis for their salvation spoken of by their Fathers. The Israelites were of course currently in the literal physical wilderness hoping for their literal physical 'promised' land given to them by the Father, via Moses and then Joshua, at that time, in their lifetime. And it is no surprise that Joshua's name means the deliverer. The Israelites also knew and looked beyond their lifespans, beyond the physical 'promised' land, as Abraham did, to know of the future Messiah for their permanent 'solid' salvation. Who “followed them," it was Yahshua of course who would be born in their distant future.

3. This is what Paul ended up saying; it is the third idiom. The basis for the Israelites' hope even whilst in the 'wilderness,' would be given to them in the distant future, by the Father, through the Messiah, the spiritual basis and Rock of (their) salvation - Yahshua.

Note: a few translations of 1 Cor 10:4b has 'accompanied them' as in the sense of space at the same time, instead of 'followed them' in the sense of a future time and in a different space. NIV is one, that is biased toward the Trinity. I hope you see that 'followed them' as used here in this verse means 'followed them' in time and space- who would be their future Messiah, born in Bethlehem.

now back to your other Hebrew verses...............

 

[mailmandan]

Of course these are the words of men. None of these phrases appear in the Bible.

Actually, the 3 tenses of salvation 1. justification 2. sanctification and 3. glorification are not merely the words of men and do appear in the Bible. The first tense of salvation is in the past tense and has been paid by Jesus Christ’s atonement on the cross. It is a once and for all work in which God delivers sinner's from the PENALTY of sin. It cannot be earned or maintained by your works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you "have been" (past tense) saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" (past tense) justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

In regards to the 2nd tense of salvation, God is also saving us in the present tense. It is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in delivering God’s people from the POWER of sin. 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (present tense) it is the power of God. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. Becoming washed, sanctified (set apart/made holy positionally in Christ) and justified is a one time event (1 Corinthians 6:11) yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event, but is progressive.

Only this:

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Romans 5:8-9)

This brings us to the 3rd tense of salvation in which we will be delivered from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) and our progressive sanctification will become final when we receive our glorified bodies. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Yet we are still warned in the same letter to not be:

“…highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

Surface read verses taken out of context don't help your case. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)

 

[mailmandan]

Here is the best way to explain what you wrote.

"we are being saved from the Power of sin"..

Why and How?

Why?..... because the born again "are no longer under the LAW".... as "the LAW is the power of SIN"... so, when you are FREED by "the righteousness of God in Christ", having BECOME this, as a "new Creation in Christ'..... then "Christ has FREED YOU from the CURSE OF THE LAW".....and now the born again exist "not under the Law, but UNDER GRACE".

Grace is the <>RULES<> regarding the Kingdom of God.

How ? ..To be born again is to exist >Spiritually" as ""ONE WITH GOD""= in the Kingdom of God, "having been Translated from darkness....TO LIGHT"...and this spiritual Kingdom where the born again now EXIST >Spiritually"> has no LAW or COMMANDMENTS in it...which is why the born again are FREED from those situations... and are become..
= "As JESUS IS>......so are the born again.......IN THIS WORLD"...

This is why the born again exist in the world but not : "OF it."

The moment we are saved we become sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..

Although believers are set apart/made holy positionally in Christ, we also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: 4 that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I understand it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. So saved from the power of sin in that sense and not in the sense that we remain under the law and under the penalty of sin as believers.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 3: 6 and 14 redux for the unbeliever who wants to know who is the elect and the truly saved.....

(Heb 3:6) But Christ, as a Son over his own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope, remaining firm to the end.
(Heb 3:14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast to our original confidence, remaining firm to the end. (NEV)

In verses 6 and 14 it says that a genuine believer of sure election who is truly saved, becomes a close companion and shares in all that Christ offers as they retain at least the same fervor, confidence and faith that caused their initial positive response and acceptance of grace, and given by the Spirit. In other words those truly saved cannot be tricked into apostasy, ever.

These same verses do not infer in any way that a truly saved person can lose their salvation and suddenly become unsaved, with the departure of the Spirit that once indwelt within them as their permanent mark and seal of God.

There are those unbelievers who parrot these verses indicate the opposite is true. I wonder then if they also think that the truly saved who they claim can be unsaved by these two verses are also permitted to be restored to their former state and be resaved once their faith meets their standards?

These evil servants expose their own lack of faith and non-acceptance of the grace of God for salvation and desire others to share in their spiritual discomfort. They desire the truly saved to lose hope and their faith as they have none themselves.

Amen! Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as those who truly have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who departed from God, yet began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

These evil servants expose their own lack of faith and non-acceptance of the grace of God for salvation and desire others to share in their spiritual discomfort. They desire the truly saved to lose hope and their faith as they have none themselves.

It's called misery loves company. Certain people can't seem to understand that just because this letter is addressed to 'holy brethren' that it's not hard to find false brethren mixed in with the group. Hence, the warning.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The first tense of salvation is in the past tense and has been paid by Jesus Christ’s atonement on the cross.

On the day that a lost man hears the gospel and repents and believes, he is sinless. Christ has taken away his sins (1 John 1:9).

And if he puts off the old man with his sinful deeds (Ephesians 4:22) he will not sin (1 John 3:9).

It is a once and for all work in which God delivers sinner's from the PENALTY of sin.

The penalty of sin is still in effect if you sin willfully after conversion (Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20; Romans 11:22).

No scripture says that we are exempt from the “penalty” of sin. That’s an invention of man.

the 3rd tense of salvation in which we will be delivered from the PRESENCE of sin

More unscriptural talk.

You either choose to walk in the new man of Christ (Ephesians 4:24), or choose to forfeit salvation by returning to the deeds of the Devil (2 Peter 2:20).

Surface read verses taken out of context don't help your case.

That’s how you are supposed to read scripture, by looking at the words on the surface of the paper and READING them.

And “context” is something that only heretics point out. Not once did Jesus lodge the “context” card on the Pharisees. You cry “context” because you believe in ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED and of course anyone reading scripture without the “context” of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is taking them “out of context”.

“Context” is not as big of an issue as many make it out to be. You are either following the scriptures, disobeying the scriptures, or perverting the scriptures. That’s it.

These terms were created to make opponents look inferior. These are the things learned in cultish groups.

When you don’t “surface read” the scriptures you are looking to change what it says on the surface.

On the surface scriptures refute ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

Going beyond what God told you to do is not wise. And if we can’t follow what the scriptures say “on the surface” then we can never be unified and men can bring in whatever “context” he wants to create his own followers. This is the cause of so much division.

You’re just a man that has given up on holiness and surrendered yourself to being a part-time sinner. When this happens you can no longer surface read much of scripture like you used to do (Revelation 2:4).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

it's not hard to find false brethren mixed in with the group. Hence, the warning.

The warning is to the BELIEVERS, hence “WE”

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Stop lying Dan.

 

[mailmandan]

On the day that a lost man hears the gospel and repents and believes, he is sinless. Christ has taken away his sins (1 John 1:9).

And if he puts off the old man with his sinful deeds (Ephesians 4:22) he will not sin (1 John 3:9).

The penalty of sin is still in effect if you sin willfully after conversion (Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20; Romans 11:22).

No scripture says that we are exempt from the “penalty” of sin. That’s an invention of man.

More unscriptural talk.

You either choose to walk in the new man of Christ (Ephesians 4:24), or choose to forfeit salvation by returning to the deeds of the Devil (2 Peter 2:20).

That’s how you are supposed to read scripture, by looking at the words on the surface of the paper and READING them.

And “context” is something that only heretics point out. Not once did Jesus lodge the “context” card on the Pharisees. You cry “context” because you believe in ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED and of course anyone reading scripture without the “context” of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is taking them “out of context”.

“Context” is not as big of an issue as many make it out to be. You are either following the scriptures, disobeying the scriptures, or perverting the scriptures. That’s it.

These terms were created to make opponents look inferior. These are the things learned in cultish groups.

When you don’t “surface read” the scriptures you are looking to change what it says on the surface.

On the surface scriptures refute ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

Going beyond what God told you to do is not wise. And if we can’t follow what the scriptures say “on the surface” then we can never be unified and men can bring in whatever “context” he wants to create his own followers. This is the cause of so much division.

You’re just a man that has given up on holiness and surrendered yourself to being a part-time sinner. When this happens you can no longer surface read much of scripture like you used to do (Revelation 2:4).

I really did not expect you to understand the 3 tenses of salvation. Since you teach works righteousness/self righteousness/self preservation/sinless perfection and deny that Jesus is God, I really don't expect you to understand much. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

I find it so ironic that you mentioned heretics and Pharisees. You are soooo puffed up! So what do YOU believe the gospel IS and also what do YOU believe it means to believe the gospel? (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

I see that you prefer surface reading over context reading and the end result of your eisegesis and flawed hermeneutics has kept you under the delusion that you are sinless 100% of the time exactly like Jesus Christ. Sadly, you continue to suffer from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10) The end result of surface reading John 6:53-56 has resulted in the false doctrine of transubstantiation and cannibalism for Romans Catholics. One must always consider the CONTEXT and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine.

Your continued obsession with relentlessly attacking OSAS is no surprise. ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[APAK]

Amen! Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as those who truly have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who departed from God, yet began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

It's called misery loves company. Certain people can't seem to understand that just because this letter is addressed to 'holy brethren' that it's not hard to find false brethren mixed in with the group. Hence, the warning.

Amen to your words

 

[mailmandan]

The warning is to the BELIEVERS, hence “WE”

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Stop lying Dan.

So you are calling me a liar? Did you realize that bearing false witness is a sin? Apparently you don't because you remain under the delusion that you are sinless 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10) Now the collective group in Hebrews 10:26-39 is not only believers. Verse 39 - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, the willful sinning here is rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. *The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics

Throughout the book of Hebrews we see make believers mixed in with genuine believers, so just because the letter of Hebrews is written to Hebrew Christians doesn't mean that everyone in this group of professing believers is a genuine believer. Works-salvationists and eternal IN-securists have a very difficult time figuring this out.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

 

[mailmandan]

Amen to your words

Thank you brother. :) It's nice to see that someone in this toxic thread gets it.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

“Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” (Luke 17:1)

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:30)

 

[mailmandan]

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

I already throughly covered these passages of scripture in post #43 from the thread below:

"Depart from me i never knew you". #1

“Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” (Luke 17:1)

Keep reading. Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” I thought brothers were sinless? So much for your theory on sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1)

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:30)

Jesus was using hyperbole in a graphic way to demonstrate the seriousness of sin. Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Jesus we would ALL be on our way to hell because ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

 

[APAK]

Thank you brother. :) It's nice to see that someone in this toxic thread gets it.

I do get it brother as I have lived it with my experiences in my sanctifying walk since I was 18 years old, with all the ups and downs, and during my several mediocre spiritual growth and neglect years, and during all this, my faith truly has never gone to zero, ever. I'm fighting the good fight indeed!

I believe you would have to kill me first and then still my faith would be with me in my departing spirit. I believe my faith is intrinsically tied to the Spirit of God and my spirit through Christ. There is no separation that I could ever cause by my actions or others to separate us three.

Yes, I've taken faith hits along the way. Even if I tried to rid myself of my faith, and I already know just speaking about it here that somehow I never can. To release or yank this precious faith from my heart seems impossible to me as it will always be attached to me, like trying to throw away a boomerang. It always comes back to me. It never leaves me. And I'm truly glad and joyful in this fact. The Spirit is engrained in me and will not let itself be released. It's at home with me. It is part of my new divine growing nature.

Even when my marriage was hitting the rocks and I was ready to pack it all in my, faith in my God was always strong. My human and sometimes sinful actions never changed my mind for my Lord and Savior, and the Father. Yes, my access to them seem to be further away in those struggling times, and maybe by spiritual design, for my discipline and correction. I needed to correct my errors in heart to my family then and then to my God. And I did.

My love for my Lord and God is always there. Sin and faith are not synonymous or in direct proportion with each other. Fighting off the power of sin over the years with the Spirit has taught me all this. And it has been and still is a good fight as Paul spoke about, as I hardly sin as I know sin, and I'm glad for it. My servitude is to my Lord and Savior and the Father of all, and never to sin anymore, Amen

 

[Michiah-Imla]

If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

I thought brothers were sinless? So much for your theory on sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1)

Not at all.

Your unconverted brother is sinning, not you.

What you need to do for this unconverted brother (upon forgiving him) is:

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

 

[mailmandan]

Not at all.

Your unconverted brother is sinning, not you.

What you need to do for this unconverted brother (upon forgiving him) is:

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20)

So a brother is only unconverted if they sin (how convenient) and a converted brother never sins at all. It's always about 'sinless perfection' with you, in spite of what we read in (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1).

In regards to James 5:19-20, notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died."

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 would be the "second death" (Revelation 21:8) and for the latter, it would be physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

 

[BarneyFife]

So you believe you are…

“….always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.” ? (See: 2 Timothy 3:7).

So you believe you…

“…resist the truth:” ?

So you believe you are included in being among …

“men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” ? (See 2 Timothy 3:8).

.
Well, since all-or-nothing thinking seems to render folks unable to deal with the sinner/saint paradox, why don't we just follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion:

So I believe I am...

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.


"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9

"The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matt. 13:41, 42.
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STRAW MAN DELUXE​

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[farouk]

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And the straw men hits just keep on comin'!

Well, since you can't seem to deal with the sinner/saint paradox inherent in sanctification, why don't we just follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion:

So I believe I are...

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.


"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9

"The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matt. 13:41, 42.

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There are at least two aspects to sanctification:

The believer's set apart position in Christ (Paul addresses some of his Epistles to saints);

And the believer's daily walk and condition before the Lord.

 

[farouk]

No one has ever lived on this earth (other than Christ, and possibly Paul) who didn't learn the Gospel of Jesus Christ from another man. Once you learn that Gospel and what it means, someone still has to show you what to do with what you have learned.

Not a single one of us here have created the doctrines we are discussing on these forums. We learned the in's and out's of these doctrines from another. But once we have been carried far enough, then we begin to learn from the Holy Spirit, that is, if we are in Christ.

That is when the Spirit begins to reveal what you are to believe. But if you're not on board by faith in Christ and have a heart to learn the truth, you can forget it, it ain't gonna happen.

So how do I learn what is right and what is wrong is this world of false doctrine? I study the scripture and read those doctrines already created and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me in truth.

I'm a firm believer in Prov. 1:23, it's like a tattoo on my brain.

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

That's a promise from the Lord God Himself! If the Holy Spirit points out sin in your life and you turn from that sin, well you see what he has promised.

I want to know His words and I guard myself the best I can from sin and do my best to drop it like hot potato when He points it out to me.

@Charlie24 It's by the Spirit of God that the believer cries 'Abba, Father' (Romans 8).

 

[DJT_47]

A totally erroneous, unscriptural, doctrine. Belief alone doesn't save your soul; even devils believe and tremble according to James. When all pertinent scriptures are considered, you end up with the following list of requirements for salvation.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief
3. Repentance
4. Water baptism for the remission of sins

Doing the above you are saved, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are added to the body of Christ by the Lord which is his church thereby becoming a child of God and a Christian.

 

[Behold]

Belief alone doesn't save your soul;

Here is a list of things that can't save you.

1.) water baptism
2.) Mary
3.) Church membership
4.) commandment keeping
5.) the Law
6.) enduring to the end
7.) confessing sin, regularly
8.) trying to be like Christ
9.) trying to abide in Christ
10.) Whatever else you are trying to do to go to heaven


Why does NONE OF THAT have anything to do with going to heaven and being SAVED?

A.) Because none of that died on the Cross for you.


Figure it out DJT_47, while you are still breathing.