1 John 3:9 - Is it cannot "practice" sin, or cannot "commit" sin?

[stunnedbygrace]

When you make a downpayment on a house, that does not mean you don’t have to make any mortgage payments.
The Holy Spirit is the downpayment of our inheritance. But as Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Meaning, if we go back to living unrighteously or we never became righteous after we received God’s grace, then there is no inheritance.

That’s confusing. God gave the downpayment. Doesn’t that mean HE has to make the mortgage payments…?

Look, I just think you’re a little confused as to how weak and destitute you really are. And there’s maybe a bit of oh you foolish Galatian mixed up in there too. You were running well your race of trust. Who convinced you that you could finish by the flesh what began by the Spirit?

Its all accomplished, from start to finish, by trust.

 

[dhh712]

Look, I just think you’re a little confused as to how weak and destitute you really are. And there’s maybe a bit of oh you foolish Galatian mixed up in there too. You were running well your race of trust. Who convinced you that you could finish by the flesh what began by the Spirit?

Its all accomplished, from start to finish by trust.

He might want to highlight this verse in Hebrews 12 "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith". By His Spirit's indwelling power in us of course.

I found him to be confusing when he disagreed with what he had written; at that point I tend to drop communications with such people as that gives evidence that they're just here to argue... Sounds about right with this one.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think he’s very convinced he understands it all. And I’ve been through the confusion too. I mean, “go and sin no more” sounds to us like we need to obey that. But it’s all designed to get us to see we CANT and so to go to HIM for the grace/power we need. The law just shows us how desperately needful we are. But we get stuck in it for so long and it’s frustrating to see someone stuck in that cycle of try, fail, get depressed, try again, fail again, get depressed again for many years. If you know how awful that is you want to try to help people out of it as quickly as you can.

It’s not a race to stop sinning. It’s a race of trust.
And Paul tells us, In fact, only when we have trust do we truly fulfill the law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If I gave you the impression that I didn’t have trust that God could make me victorious over sin, I am pretty sure you need to have your impression reader checked.
Pretty sure you and I would completely disagree on the way TO that victory though.

You said, I quote:

“I mean, “go and sin no more” sounds to us like we need to obey that. But it’s all designed to get us to see we CANT.”​

Quote by stunnedbygrace.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You said, I quote:

“I mean, “go and sin no more” sounds to us like we need to obey that. But it’s all designed to get us to see we CANT.”​

Quote by stunnedbygrace.

Yes, I said we can’t. I did not say God can’t. We trust Him and His promises of what He can do and we learn to have no confidence in our flesh. The flesh wars against the Spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He might want to highlight this verse in Hebrews 12 "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith". By His Spirit's indwelling power in us of course.

I found him to be confusing when he disagreed with what he had written; at that point I tend to drop communications with such people as that gives evidence that they're just here to argue... Sounds about right with this one.

Most in Christianity desire to justify sin (Whether you agree with that truth or not). It simply is the truth according to God’s Word, and my extensive research and experience in the present day world we live in. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says in the last days perilous times will come and men shall be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They will have a form of godliness and deny the power thereof. Take for example Gotquestions article. They believe that a Christian is characterized by a life of holiness but yet they also double speak and say that a backslidden Christian is still saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

Meaning, they believe the prodigal son was still saved while he was living it up with prostitutes. Other Christians who believe this way also think you can commit suicide and be saved, and or take the mark of the beast and be saved (See my post here). In short, they are teaching a license for sin (Just like many others who believe as they do). Jude 1:4 warns us faithful believers against those who would turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Jesus warned us about how certain sins can destroy our souls in the afterlife and or lead to our condemnation (See: Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28–30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62).

As for Hebrews 12:2:

The context tell us to lay aside every weight and sin that easily besets us And run with patience the race set before us. So God is not forcing us to do something against our own will. We have to cooperate with the LORD.

Hebrews 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

While the Lord does ultimately do the good work in the believer and to help them overcome sin, this is not against our free will. We have to choose to cooperate with God. It’s Synergistic, or a walk with the LORD (and God does not force His good ways upon us).

How so?

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).​

​

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

​

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as popular Christianity says these days.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Most in Christianity desire to justify sin

I don’t think that’s true. I think they are taught to do it through the doctrines they learn, but most of us don’t desire to sin. We’re taught we have no choice and that there’s no help for it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I said we can’t. I did not say God can’t. We trust Him and His promises of what He can do and we learn to have no confidence in our flesh. The flesh wars against the Spirit.

What is your view of 1 John 1:8?
Most Christinas today take 1 John 1:8 as if it was some kind of banner flag that they wave around to say that they must sin on some level when that’s not what it is saying.

They believe they must declare they have sin (even though the verse is a warning to the brethren against those who were trying to seduce them - 1 John 2:26). Meaning, there were folk who thought sin did not exist or that it was an illusion. Today, Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion and is not real, and so 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them to not believe that way. Basically 1 John 1:8 is saying, if we say we have no sin if we do sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It’s not saying we must declare we are always in some kind of sin. That truly is false. For that would contradict a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4 and many other verses in the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t think that’s true. I think they are taught to do it through the doctrines they learn, but most of us don’t desire to sin. We’re taught we have no choice and that there’s no help for it.

Over 10 years I have talked with Christians online and in person and so I am not new to these kinds of discussions and what the Bible plainly says.

So why do I believe this way?

Well, from my extensive research and discussions with many,
I have discovered that there are two popular groups of Bible Alone Christians today.

#1. Hyper Grace.
#2. Partial Hyper Grace (A term I came up with).

I have ran into Hyper Grace Christians both online and in person. The best example of a Hyper Grace Christian is George Sodini. He murdered a bunch of people and took his own life and basically said in his own suicide letter (of sorts) that he was saved by a belief alone in Jesus as His Savior and not of works. To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article here:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Posts about O.S.A.S. written by freespirit16

freespirit16.wordpress.com

In fact, even an elder at his church even stated afterward that George was still saved despite what he did:

RICK KNAPP George Sodini MURDERS Eternal Security

www.evangelicaloutreach.org

In other words, Hyper Grace Christians believe they can practice sin and or live like the devil and be saved all by having a belief alone in Jesus as one’s Savior. While what they believe is highly immoral, they at least are consistent when they say they believe in Jesus + no works (even though what they believe is a great error). I generally try to not reason with these types of believers for very long and I simply ignore them and warn others about them.

Then there is the group of Christians of which I call, “Partial Hyper Grace.”
This is the group that makes up the second largest branch of Christianity today (under the umbrella of Protestantism). Note: Keep in mind I am non-denominational, and I believe the Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand It (I believe the Bible is our guide for all matters of the faith and in being faithful to the LORD and His commands in the New Testament).

Partial Hyper Grace Christians believe that a believer cannot practice sin or otherwise they should question whether or not they were born again to begin with. Partial Hyper Grace Christians believe that Christians will sin again (occasional sin). They believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that they will always sin this side of Heaven (When that’s not what it is saying). Just how often and or how much this occasional sin is never clearly defined and sometimes their own words contradict this kind of statement sometimes. The Partial Hyper Grace Christians does not believe occasional sin or individual sin does not jeopardize their salvation in any way (as long as they are not living in habitual sin or unless they are practicing sin). But even this is an illusion. For example: Gotquestion’s article says that a Christian is characterized by living a life of holiness, but then they double speak and say that a backslidden Christian is still saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

These types of Christians have said that you can commit suicide and be saved, and take the mark of the beast and be saved (See my post here).
If man made history books are true, and he believe this way until his death, Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism) said:

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ['Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404].

Most Christians today I have talked with don’t believe the words of Jesus when He warned us about how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife and or that they can lead to our condemnation (See: Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, and Luke 9:62). They either think that Jesus was leading up to the ultimate point about how we cannot keep God’s laws or that His words only applied to the Jews back under the Old Covenant and they do not apply to us today (According to them). But in 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Paul basically says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So this is very serious that many Christians today are not in agreement entirely with all of the words of Jesus. Even the apostle Paul warned how certain sins can destroy our souls, as well (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, etc.).

In other words, if one believes the wrong way about sin and they think they can sin and still be saved on even a smaller level, then they are justifying sin. It would not matter if they themselves even perfectly obeyed God. If they taught others that one can commit even one sin that God condemns and they lead a person into doing that, then they will have that other person’s blood on their hands. So if these types of Christians lead a person to think individual occasional sin does not lead to spiritual death, then they can potentially convince another believer to commit suicide with them thinking it will not jeopardize their salvation when in reality it does. Suicide is self murder, and the Scriptures say: No murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t think that’s true. I think they are taught to do it through the doctrines they learn, but most of us don’t desire to sin. We’re taught we have no choice and that there’s no help for it.

Most don’t believe the words of Jesus when He spoke about how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife, and they think 1 John 1:8 is an excuse that they must sin on occasion (with them thinking they are still saved while they commit these occasional sins). So they are not in agreement with God’s Word in regards to sin and it’s consequences. Believers must confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Many Christians today see salvation as done in the past, when we are told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). They simply don’t believe God’s Word entirely. They cherry pick the Bible in looking to only at the comforting sounding verses and they don’t really deal with the other parts of the BIble that are less comforting (Because it would require them to change their life).

 

[Lambano]

Jesus saves not only in forgiving us of our past life of sin, but Jesus saves us in helping us to overcome sin in this life.

Sssshh! Someone doesn’t want us to come out of our exhausted trance and see that and believe that and ask for that!

My response to that is, okay, I see my lack. Now can someone tell me how long I must try harder to change my lack?

A fascinating juxtaposition of quotes.

We've been conditioned not to ask for help, because that would be admitting weakness, admitting we don't have our s*** together. A child of God always has his s*** together and is not able to sin, they say. Realizing that it's okay to admit my lack and ask God to provide what I lack may be the most important and freeing lesson I've learned in my sojourn on CB.

I've heard and read some wonderful testimonies from folks whom Jesus rescued from horrible addictions, gay men and women whom Jesus straightened out, serial cheaters and porn users who came to Jesus and became faithful spouses, materialists who gave it all away for the Kingdom of God, angry and hateful and violent people whom Jesus transformed into loving and gentle souls... (And let's praise God for that!) But I also know believers who've begged God to free them from their prisons and still can't get clean. You don't hear their stories on Sunday mornings or on Christian broadcasting. It's not the way we were told it should be, but it is what it is. I've said that I never liked the book of Job, but if I learned anything from it, it's that God doesn't always do what we think He should. The Bible says God is sovereign, and He responds to prayer in His own time and His own way, I guess. Sometimes the answer is, "My grace is sufficient for you".

Y'know, I think it may take more faith to keep trusting God to love you when you know you're screwed-up and you're not getting any better and your prayers aren't getting answered.

 

[dhh712]

I think he’s very convinced he understands it all. And I’ve been through the confusion too. I mean, “go and sin no more” sounds to us like we need to obey that. But it’s all designed to get us to see we CANT and so to go to HIM for the grace/power we need. The law just shows us how desperately needful we are. But we get stuck in it for so long and it’s frustrating to see someone stuck in that cycle of try, fail, get depressed, try again, fail again, get depressed again for many years. If you know how awful that is you want to try to help people out of it as quickly as you can.

It’s not a race to stop sinning. It’s a race of trust.
And Paul tells us, In fact, only when we have trust do we truly fulfill the law.

That's exactly right. We are unable to obey in all things and be perfect like Jesus is; it is just not possible for the remaining corruption that is in us. God doesn't--for His own eternally wise reasons--sanctify us perfectly in this world.

When Jesus told the "rich young ruler" to go and sell everything he owns and follow Him, instead of turning away from Jesus sadly and realizing he couldn't obey this, he should have turned to Him and asked for His mercy. Because Jesus said "All who come to me I will in no way cast out". The law drives us to our need for Jesus. Instead, the rich young ruler sought to fulfill the law on his own strength and he actually realized that he couldn't do this. But he didn't turn to God realizing that God can.

What is going on, when someone thinks that they do obey the law perfectly, is they do not understand all that the law entails. It is a very shallow view of holiness. No mere human can scarcely obey the first commandment of God to love Him with all the heart, soul, mind and strength. Anyone who thinks he or she accomplishes this every day has a very minimal view of what all of that entails.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal to such a person the myriad ways in which he or she fails in this every day. A person who does not experience any of the holiness of God will mistakenly think they are loving God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.

And yes, when we do sin we are justifying sin--we are placing ourselves on throne and kicking God off of it. If we don't repent of it, then it shows we really don't care that we sin. Not sure if such a person is really saved. I feel that a lot of Christians do have a low view of sin and feel that their sin doesn't really matter. I'm not going to say they're not saved though because I don't know their heart. That would be putting myself on the throne of God and that is a sin (which some people on here who think they are not sinning should repent of at least this one remaining sin).

Those pastors who do not teach on the destruction of sin are doing wrong and they will be judged harshly for it. I'm so thankful that many if not all of the pastors I listen to have the more correct view of sin and do teach on the gravity of it. A recent sermon I listened to the pastor spoke of how there will be a lot of "good" people who go to church every Sunday and who think they're saved in hell. If that doesn't get you to examine your life, I don't know what will (at least it shouldn't make someone think, "My that was a nice, uplifting sermon").

The problem with the OSAS doctrine is that it promotes a light view of sin which is a horrible death trap for many believers. Though it is technically true (because of the verse where Jesus says that all that the Father gives me I will not lose any, so if they actually were truly saved and then became lost that would make God a liar) I typically don't speak in that way because it promotes the wrong idea: that our sinful actions do not matter when they do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Realizing that it's okay to admit my lack and ask God to provide what I lack may be the most important and freeing lesson I've learned in my sojourn on CB.

God says, …my power is made perfect in weakness. Paul says, Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A fascinating juxtaposition of quotes.

We've been conditioned not to ask for help, because that would be admitting weakness, admitting we don't have our s*** together. A child of God always has his s*** together and is not able to sin, they say. Realizing that it's okay to admit my lack and ask God to provide what I lack may be the most important and freeing lesson I've learned in my sojourn on CB.

I've heard and read some wonderful testimonies from folks whom Jesus rescued from horrible addictions, gay men and women whom Jesus straightened out, serial cheaters and porn users who came to Jesus and became faithful spouses, materialists who gave it all away for the Kingdom of God, angry and hateful and violent people whom Jesus transformed into loving and gentle souls... (And let's praise God for that!) But I also know believers who've begged God to free them from their prisons and still can't get clean. You don't hear their stories on Sunday mornings or on Christian broadcasting. It's not the way we were told it should be, but it is what it is. I've said that I never liked the book of Job, but if I learned anything from it, it's that God doesn't always do what we think He should. The Bible says God is sovereign, and He responds to prayer in His own time and His own way, I guess. Sometimes the answer is, "My grace is sufficient for you".

Y'know, I think it may take more faith to keep trusting God to love you when you know you're screwed-up and you're not getting any better and your prayers aren't getting answered.

Again, you can rejoice in Christians being able to overcome these sins, and that is something to rejoice in indeed. But again, if you also teach future sin is forgiven us and you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that you must always commit some kind of individual sin on occasion in this life (not practicing sin) then you are in effect declaring you can sin and still be saved. Most in popular Christianity (who disagree with me) obviously don’t believe they don’t jeopardize their salvation if they slip up in a lie, or if they slip up in looking upon a woman in lust briefly. Most Christians today believe you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus or in trusting in the finished work of the cross alone by faith. Is that also what you believe? If so, Adam and Eve were separated from God by just one sin. Ananias and Sapphira were separated from God by their one time sin each. The serpent (devil) wanted to convince Eve that she could break God’s command (i.e. sin) and not die. This same lie is being pushed by the devil today. It only takes one sin a believer can justify to break that fellowship with the LORD. But to say that one must always sin (individual sins done on occasion again at some future point in time) and yet they are saved while they do these individual occasional sins is to turn God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). It would not matter if you rejoice in seeing others coming out of enslavement to other sins. You yourself have admitted that you don’t see a problem in being a slave to sin and it is just the fight that matters. But what about the victory of those other believers? Surely now you are not being consistent here. This is the sin and still be saved dance whereby you doublespeak (Saying on the one hand you fight even though you will lose and yet you rejoice in the victory of others over sin). True full obedience to the LORD then is an illusion to you. It will never truly happen In this life for you. So then… justifying sin with the thinking one is saved is the alternative. But what do you think happened with the Ninevites in Jonah 3? Did not God not bring wrath upon them because they had forsaken their evil ways?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's exactly right. We are unable to obey in all things and be perfect like Jesus is; it is just not possible for the remaining corruption that is in us. God doesn't--for His own eternally wise reasons--sanctify us perfectly in this world.

When Jesus told the "rich young ruler" to go and sell everything he owns and follow Him, instead of turning away from Jesus sadly and realizing he couldn't obey this, he should have turned to Him and asked for His mercy. Because Jesus said "All who come to me I will in no way cast out". The law drives us to our need for Jesus. Instead, the rich young ruler sought to fulfill the law on his own strength and he actually realized that he couldn't do this. But he didn't turn to God realizing that God can.

What is going on, when someone thinks that they do obey the law perfectly, is they do not understand all that the law entails. It is a very shallow view of holiness. No mere human can scarcely obey the first commandment of God to love Him with all the heart, soul, mind and strength. Anyone who thinks he or she accomplishes this every day has a very minimal view of what all of that entails.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal to such a person the myriad ways in which he or she fails in this every day. A person who does not experience any of the holiness of God will mistakenly think they are loving God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.

And yes, when we do sin we are justifying sin--we are placing ourselves on throne and kicking God off of it. If we don't repent of it, then it shows we really don't care that we sin. Not sure if such a person is really saved. I feel that a lot of Christians do have a low view of sin and feel that their sin doesn't really matter. I'm not going to say they're not saved though because I don't know their heart. That would be putting myself on the throne of God and that is a sin (which some people on here who think they are not sinning should repent of at least this one remaining sin).

Those pastors who do not teach on the destruction of sin are doing wrong and they will be judged harshly for it. I'm so thankful that many if not all of the pastors I listen to have the more correct view of sin and do teach on the gravity of it. A recent sermon I listened to the pastor spoke of how there will be a lot of "good" people who go to church every Sunday and who think they're saved in hell. If that doesn't get you to examine your life, I don't know what will (at least it shouldn't make someone think, "My that was a nice, uplifting sermon").

The problem with the OSAS doctrine is that it promotes a light view of sin which is a horrible death trap for many believers. Though it is technically true (because of the verse where Jesus says that all that the Father gives me I will not lose any, so if they actually were truly saved and then became lost that would make God a liar) I typically don't speak in that way because it promotes the wrong idea: that our sinful actions do not matter when they do.

You said,

“God… doesn’t sanctify us perfectly in this world.” Quote by: dhh712.

The Bible says,
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord JesusChrist.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Who am I going to believe? You or the Bible?

I believe the Bible. God‘s Word says the very God of peace can sanctify you WHOLLY (Fully) and Paul prays that God will preserve your whole spirit, soul, and body to be BLAMELESS until the coming of the Lord Jesus.

Do you believe 1 Thessalonians 5:23 or am I going to see you ignore this verse or am I going to see you try to explain away this verse as if it does not mean what it says?

What do you do with 2 Corinthians 7:1? It says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
You really don’t believe you can cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfect holiness in the fear of God.

Again, will you ignore 2 Corinthians 7:1? Or will you seek to explain 2 Corinthians 7:1 away as if it does not mean what it plainly says?

In other words, I am sorry to inform you, but you have simply repeated the sayings that come from Protestants (Which undoes the Word of God). Note: Keep in mind I am non-denomitional, and I believe “the Bible alone + the Anointing to Understand it.” The Bible (with the help of the Spirit to understand it) is my sole guide for all matters of the faith and in being faithful to the LORD and His commands in the New Testament. Do you even realize that Protestantism is the second largest branch of Christianity (Following Catholicism being the 1st largest branch of Christianity). Protestants number close to 1 billion adherents. But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. Jesus says enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). Is 1 billion truly the narrow way? Justifying the idea that we must sin again as per a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not sound like the narrow way that Jesus talked about. Remember, it only took one sin to separate Adam and Eve from God.

Do you believe king David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
If you say yes, imagine what sins you can tell others to do under God’s grace with the thinking they are saved.
You basically implied it is impossible to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength when God never said it was impossible.
In fact, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to do the two greatest commandments is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).
Jesus did not say to the lawyer, “Wrong Lawyer! Just believe on the finished work of the cross and don’t worry about loving God and loving your neighbor.”

Imagine if you led a child to think this way. Remember what the Bible says about leading a child into sin?
That’s the problem I have with the popular version of candy land Christianity today that justifies sins thinking they are saved.
Believers need to be in a purification process and put away all known sin in their life. If they are not on that road of purifying themselves with the goal of overcoming sin, then there is no hope for them. A person can justify one sin or the thinking they must sin again and that is wrong. God cannot agree with your sin even on the smallest level. God is holy and good and more pure than you can imagine.

Side Note:

Yes, we need to first be washed cleaned by God’s grace through faith without works. That is the 1st aspect of salvation. But after we are saved by God’s grace,… we need to enter into the secondary aspect of salvation describe in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Also see Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

BELIEVE… God’s Word.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's exactly right. We are unable to obey in all things and be perfect like Jesus is; it is just not possible for the remaining corruption that is in us. God doesn't--for His own eternally wise reasons--sanctify us perfectly in this world.

I’m not as sure about that last part as you are. I know I’ve never met, in person, a man actually walking in the Spirit, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen anymore. I rather think we have become pretty weak and so we don’t HAVE a Paul or a Peter to help us.

Ive met one man (not in person), who made that jump into not only being led by the Spirit but also actually walking IN the Spirit. He didn’t just experience “ and I in you“, he actually experienced the first part of that verse also.

Since I have never yet walked in the Spirit, I can’t really speak much about it, but God did bring that man into my life (but only by correspondence and zoom for a while) and he has told me some about it.

He is a…spy who went into the promised land and came back saying, it’s a good place and God has prepared it for us. And I believe him, but most dont. They just…don’t believe it and think he is making up his report about it.

I don’t know for sure if one can walk in the Spirit/stay in that promised land all the time or if it’s only sometimes, but I think, by his report, along with scripture, that if and when God sweeps you into it, you are not sinning at all while you are there because there is no sin IN Him at all. And, by his report,(and scripture) I think I’ve…pieced together that it takes a lot of trust to walk there and one speck of unbelief to stumble out of it, because there is no sin in Him, there, and whatever is not of trust is sin. The way he describes it is that he did not have the maturity to stay there and didn’t really understand righteousness yet. He understood more of holiness because God took him there, but not so much about righteousness yet. for the longer time He walked there, I think he said it was a few years, he says he was…tricked out of it by listening to a man. For the other shorter time he walked there, I forget what he said caused him to stop remaining/abiding there, but I have a feeling (I don’t think I told him my feeling) that no matter what, God was sending him back to the desert to testify to us that it was a good place.
Anyway, I believe the man and I’ve learned from him some keys that unlock scripture. One big one anyway. It makes a lot of confusions disappear but…it takes practice to remember that key at all times. Ive picked it up and then dropped and lost It many times!
But when you abide in Him, rather than just Him abiding in you, it’s not so much that you yourself are holy but that you are walking in HIS holiness. (It’s God being there, and you being where He is that makes you holy - like the verse about is it the sacrifice on the altar that makes the temple holy? No, Gods presence there makes it holy. Anyway, I believe the man and I want to enter in there, I want to apprehend the thing I have been apprehended FOR. and…just as with Israel in the desert, only one thing prevents me from it that I can see and it is the same thing that prevented Israel. So that’s what I have been vigilant about - that I race to trust more and more and deal very swiftly with any speck of unbelief or mistrust in anything My Lord has said, or any worry over temporal things.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And yes, when we do sin we are justifying sin

When we sin, it is because a leopard can’t change his spots. That’s why we trust God and hope for what He promises and what He can do.

If I sin and I agree with God at the same time that it is sin, and I do what I don’t want to do instead of what I want to, Paul says it is not me sinning, it’s sin in me. It’s a hard passage to grasp but…it brings you eventually to a place where you see you’re in the same boat as everyone else and you trust God to somehow fix it even though you can’t imagine how He will do it. Which brings us back to - therefore I will glory in my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 

[dhh712]

I’m not as sure about that last part as you are. I know I’ve never met, in person, a man actually walking in the Spirit, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen anymore. I rather think we have become pretty weak and so we don’t HAVE a Paul or a Peter to help us.

Ive met one man (not in person), who made that jump into not only being led by the Spirit but also actually walking IN the Spirit. He didn’t just experience “ and I in you“, he actually experienced the first part of that verse also.

Since I have never yet walked in the Spirit, I can’t really speak much about it, but God did bring that man into my life (but only by correspondence and zoom for a while) and he has told me some about it.

He is a…spy who went into the promised land and came back saying, it’s a good place and God has prepared it for us. And I believe him, but most dont. They just…don’t believe it and think he is making up his report about it.

I don’t know for sure if one can walk in the Spirit/stay in that promised land all the time or if it’s only sometimes, but I think, by his report, along with scripture, that if and when God sweeps you into it, you are not sinning at all while you are there because there is no sin IN Him at all. And, by his report,(and scripture) I think I’ve…pieced together that it takes a lot of trust to walk there and one speck of unbelief to stumble out of it, because there is no sin in Him, there and whatever is not of trust is sin. The way he describes it is that he did not have the maturity to stay there and didn’t really understand righteousness yet. He understood more of holiness because God took him there, but not so much about righteousness yet. for the longer time He walked there, I think he said it was a few years, he says he was…tricked out of it by listening to a man. For the other shorter time he walked there, I forget what he said caused him to stop remaining/abiding there, but I have a feeling (I don’t think I told him my feeling) that no matter what, God was sending him back to the desert to testify to us that it was a good place.
Anyway, I believe the man and I’ve learned from him some keys that unlock scripture. One big one anyway. It makes a lot of confusions disappear but…it takes practice to remember that key at all times. Ive picked it up and then dropped and lost It many times!
But when you abide in Him, rather than just Him abiding in you, it’s not so much that you yourself are holy but that you are walking in HIS holiness. (It’s God being there, and you being where He is that makes you holy - like the verse about is it the sacrifice on the altar that makes the temple holy? No, Gods presence there makes it holy. Anyway, I believe the man and I want to enter in there, I want to apprehend the thing I have been apprehended FOR. and…just as with Israel in the desert, only one thing prevents me from it that I can see and it is the same thing that prevented Israel. So that’s what I have been vigilant about - that I race to trust more and more and deal very swiftly with any speck of unbelief or mistrust in anything My Lord has said.

Well, I think we can get pretty close to being perfectly sanctified (though it seems not many of us get there), but to be perfect like Jesus only occurs when we are dwelling with Him eternally.

I know the verses that say we are to be blameless before Him, but we have to take the whole counsel of God into consideration not just part of it. I've got to run but I'm going to try to later look into how to reconcile those verses with how we are not sanctified perfectly here in this lifetime.

 

[dhh712]

When we sin, it is because a leopard can’t change his spots. That’s why we trust God and hope for what He promises and what He can do.

If I sin and I agree with God at the same time that it is sin, and I do what I don’t want to do instead of what I want to, Paul says it is not me sinning, it’s sin in me. It’s a hard passage to grasp but…it brings you eventually to a place where you see you’re in the same boat as everyone else and you trust God to somehow fix it even though you can’t imagine how He will do it. Which brings us back to - therefore I will glory in my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Yes, it is in our nature for us to sin and God doesn't get rid of that nature in its entirety until we dwell with Him eternally.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's exactly right. We are unable to obey in all things and be perfect like Jesus is; it is just not possible for the remaining corruption that is in us. God doesn't--for His own eternally wise reasons--sanctify us perfectly in this world.

When Jesus told the "rich young ruler" to go and sell everything he owns and follow Him, instead of turning away from Jesus sadly and realizing he couldn't obey this, he should have turned to Him and asked for His mercy. Because Jesus said "All who come to me I will in no way cast out". The law drives us to our need for Jesus. Instead, the rich young ruler sought to fulfill the law on his own strength and he actually realized that he couldn't do this. But he didn't turn to God realizing that God can.

What is going on, when someone thinks that they do obey the law perfectly, is they do not understand all that the law entails. It is a very shallow view of holiness. No mere human can scarcely obey the first commandment of God to love Him with all the heart, soul, mind and strength. Anyone who thinks he or she accomplishes this every day has a very minimal view of what all of that entails.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal to such a person the myriad ways in which he or she fails in this every day. A person who does not experience any of the holiness of God will mistakenly think they are loving God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.

And yes, when we do sin we are justifying sin--we are placing ourselves on throne and kicking God off of it. If we don't repent of it, then it shows we really don't care that we sin. Not sure if such a person is really saved. I feel that a lot of Christians do have a low view of sin and feel that their sin doesn't really matter. I'm not going to say they're not saved though because I don't know their heart. That would be putting myself on the throne of God and that is a sin (which some people on here who think they are not sinning should repent of at least this one remaining sin).

Those pastors who do not teach on the destruction of sin are doing wrong and they will be judged harshly for it. I'm so thankful that many if not all of the pastors I listen to have the more correct view of sin and do teach on the gravity of it. A recent sermon I listened to the pastor spoke of how there will be a lot of "good" people who go to church every Sunday and who think they're saved in hell. If that doesn't get you to examine your life, I don't know what will (at least it shouldn't make someone think, "My that was a nice, uplifting sermon").

The problem with the OSAS doctrine is that it promotes a light view of sin which is a horrible death trap for many believers. Though it is technically true (because of the verse where Jesus says that all that the Father gives me I will not lose any, so if they actually were truly saved and then became lost that would make God a liar) I typically don't speak in that way because it promotes the wrong idea: that our sinful actions do not matter when they do.

In Mathew 19 involving the young rich ruler:

Well, the young rich ruler would have had to repent of his many riches of which he was not willing to give up. So it had to deal with his unwillingness to follow Jesus. If you were to read the end of the chapter in Matthew 19, it does not conclude with the thinking that we are to just trust in the finished work of the cross as the solution to not being able to follow Jesus. The conclusion was to follow Jesus forsaking all. That was what the disciples confirmed with Jesus in the fact that they had forsaken all to follow Him and this was tied to eternal life. That is the most honest reading of Matthew 19 without the inserting of our own ideas into the text.

Yes, I am not denying that need God’s grace. That is what the rich young ruler could have most likely sought forgiveness over with the Lord Jesus if He remained with Him. But the point here in Matthew 19 was loyalty, and the young rich ruler was more loyal to his life and or his riches than to Jesus. That is what would have cost this young rich ruler his salvation. That’s the point that was made in Matthew 19. Most Christians today do not want to follow Jesus but they want to follow their own life, or with some of them desiring to build an empire of riches, etcetera. But we must pick up our cross, deny ourselves, and follow Jesus. For if we save our life, we will lose it.