dhh712
Well-Known Member
Time and time again, we point out the verses in Scripture which point to God's sovereignty in salvation, but over and over again it's the same type of responses. And I don't know how many times I've said it -- I feel like a broken record now-- in my own conversion I most definitely was not a puppet on a string: of my own volition I chose God, it was my own choice to come to him. Again, salvation is 100% God and 100% man. That is what God reveals in his word.Of course not. That's just a terrible caricature of what we are saying. It is not that we "don't have a choice," or even that we "don't make this choice freely." We do have a choice, and we must make it, but the question of who is elect of God and who is not does not depend on our choice, but on God's, who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and compassion upon whom He will have compassion. God Himself says this to Moses, and Paul cites God's words to Moses in Romans 9:
"...when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:10-18)
So, do we elect ourselves unto salvation? Well of course not. It is God's purpose of election, not ours.
Before the point that we are born again by the Spirit, God is not our Father, and thus we are not of God. So, our choice regarding God's great salvation will without fail be to dismiss it. This is because our father is the devil, and our desire, therefore, is to do his desires. This is what Jesus says to the Jews in John 8, that, well:
"They answered him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill Me, a man Who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.' They said to him, 'We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father ~ even God.' Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of My own accord, but He sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.'" (John 8:39-44a)
And in John 10, Jesus hits this point again:
"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep.'" (John 10:22-26)
God is completely sovereign over all His creation. As Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44). It's not that we "can't make a choice," or that we "don't have free-will," but that our choice, our free-will, will always be otherwise unless and until we are drawn by the Father. And later, He says to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16). And Paul says this very thing of all of us Christians in Ephesians 2:8-10, that "...by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This is admittedly a hard truth to digest, for many reasons, but truth it is.
Ah! Very interesting that you put it that way. God frees us from slavery to unrighteousness. This is what Paul says in Romans 6:
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin." (Romans 6:1-7)
You see? Well, perhaps not, but it's... right there. :)
Grace and peace to all.
Calvinism is often not well understood by those who deride it and make it into a caricature of what it is due to their poor understanding of it. For instance, I do not believe there are any infants who will be in hell. It is Jesus alone who saves and though the usual means of salvation is our actively believing upon Him, this in no way precludes God saving in other ways simply by bestowing salvation upon those who have no mental capacity to receive Him-- such as very small children and mentally incapacitated individuals.
As we stated before, God has declared that he will have mercy upon those whom he will have mercy. Those who die infancy I believe God bestows mercy on them by sparing them the hardships of this life and receiving them into his kingdom.
It is plain in Scripture that it is God who must act in order for anyone to be saved. Therefore, he does not act for all to be saved. I believe it is in Romans where the apostle, by the authorship of the Holy Spirit, describes how God has created vessels for destruction. And who are you, O man, to question God for His actions? If this makes God a monster to you, I am truly sorry you feel that way about the God who is revealed in the Bible. But God needs no one to apologize for him. This is his world and we are his creation. He owes us nothing, but he has bestowed on us blessings beyond measure, the greatest of which is to be reconciled to Him through Jesus.