The Divine Plan of the Ages by Charles T Russell - Jehovah's Witnesses

[face2face]

Oh, I see what you are inferring...but I believe you are assuming the Lord has not returned. Which is not to say He has returned to all, but to many, as Paul explained: "but each one in his own order."

So, if you believe that the Lord's return is rather one big future event, that is the error of many, but not the truth.

As for the word "until" (the times of the gentiles are fulfilled) and what it actually refers to: It refers to what Paul explained...that Christ comes to "each on in his own order." Yet the order of each in the world, is not the order of each in the kingdom. The time of all such events is "now", just as it is for salvation. Just as the scriptures indicated (as Paul said), we "were" crucified with Christ--which is the timing of each according to God, and also the timing of Israel's blindness being removed--for they proceed us, as Paul also said. So no, it is not future, but past--that is as the world defines past and future.

But if we continue to dance about the world giving precedence to its times, the past tense or timeless language is shrouded in that same blindness. Nonetheless, "were" and "I am" and salvation being "now" are not of the world, but are a mystery and foolishness to the natural man.

Let's step this up a notch shall we?

I see what you did there explaining away their temporary blindness and yes it's clear his return is a future event.

Speak to me about the events leading up to the coronation of Christ as King over undivided Israel.

How do you interpret Malachi 4:5-6

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet" Who are the 'you' in this verse?

This is going to be interesting because you really only have two options in dealing with this prophecy as it relates to the Lord's second coming and if you are cognisant of the preparation for his first it will prove difficult for you to explain this away.

And in keeping with our subject of the Sheep and Goats we must acknowledge these events spoken by the prophet Malachi precede this judgement period.

F2F

 

[ScottA]

I see what you did there explaining away their temporary blindness and yes it's clear his return is a future event.

I did not "explain away their temporary blindness", but explained it: It is only temporary as the times of the gentiles appear to come first. Which Paul explained (as have I) that they actually proceed us...meaning that assuming all of these matters are one grand future event is a complete error of misunderstanding just how the events of the world occur as opposed to the events of the kingdom. According to Paul's explanation of "but each one in his own order", these events are only future for those who have yet to see or receive them.

Speak to me about the events leading up to the coronation of Christ as King over undivided Israel.

How do you interpret Malachi 4:5-6

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet" Who are the 'you' in this verse?

This is going to be interesting because you really only have two options in dealing with this prophecy as it relates to the Lord's second coming and if you are cognisant of the preparation for his first it will prove difficult for you to explain this away.

And in keeping with our subject of the Sheep and Goats we must acknowledge these events spoken by the prophet Malachi precede this judgement period.

Jesus answered the Elijah question, saying, "But I say to you that Elijah has come already." Matthew 17:12

 

[face2face]

I did not "explain away their temporary blindness", but explained it: It is only temporary as the times of the gentiles appear to come first. Which Paul explained (as have I) that they actually proceed us...meaning that assuming all of these matters are one grand future event is a complete error of misunderstanding just how the events of the world occur as opposed to the events of the kingdom. According to Paul's explanation of "but each one in his own order", these events are only future for those who have yet to see or receive them.
Jesus answered the Elijah question, saying, "But I say to you that Elijah has come already." Matthew 17:12

Lovely, I knew you would say that!

(You must Read the Lord's words really carefully Scott!)

Mark 9:12 “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things:

The Lord does not deny that Elijah will be the forerunner at His second advent.

John the Baptist did not “Restore all things!”

John only turned the hearts of “many” Luke 1:16-17

Luke 1:16 He will bring back many (NOT ALL) of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, (NOT ELIJAH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT OF HIM) to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

- Elijah's work will be to turn "all" hearts and to restore all things!

God is not finished with Israel...unfinished work to be done...Elijah’s work will be a total success after the rebellious in heart are purged as per Ezekiel 20:35-38.

Are you still with the Lord on this?

F2F

 

[face2face]

There is a warning here Scott, which you may not yet fully perceive.

Jesus in teaching the people of his sufferings i.e The “Son of Man must suffer” revealed that there were very clear prophecies of Messiah’s sufferings in the OT, which his people missed. The Lord's “forerunner” would also reveal in his life these same sufferings, which John did both in his life and in his death. However, if the Scribes had failed to understand these prophecies of Messiah’s sufferings at that time, how could they appreciate those prophecies of His “forerunner's”.

Like the "many" Christian's today, when the Lord comes, it will be said...

“They knew Him not” Matthew 17:12

Nor will they understand the work he is coming to do.

 

[ScottA]

Lovely, I knew you would say that!

(You must Read the Lord's words really carefully Scott!)

Mark 9:12 “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things:

The Lord does not deny that Elijah will be the forerunner at His second advent.

John the Baptist did not “Restore all things!”

John only turned the hearts of “many” Luke 1:16-17

Luke 1:16 He will bring back many (NOT ALL) of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, (NOT ELIJAH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT OF HIM) to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

- Elijah's work will be to turn "all" hearts and to restore all things!

God is not finished with Israel...unfinished work to be done...Elijah’s work will be a total success after the rebellious in heart are purged as per Ezekiel 20:35-38.

Are you still with the Lord on this?

F2F

Many hearts were turned to God, and many not. Nonetheless, John the Baptist did indeed "Prepare the way of the Lord" and restored all things to make "His paths straight."

It is a misunderstanding to think that John needed to make everyone perfect--that was not his part. He just needed to fulfill, "the voice of on crying in the wilderness", which was the confirmation of all that is written of Christ's coming. It was that confirmation that "restores all things."

 

[face2face]

Many hearts were turned to God, and many not. Nonetheless, John the Baptist did indeed "Prepare the way of the Lord" and restored all things to make "His paths straight."

It is a misunderstanding to think that John needed to make everyone perfect--that was not his part.

Correct his role was only to turn many hearts not all - Elijah's work is still yet to be manifested in the earth.

He just needed to fulfill, "the voice of on crying in the wilderness", which was the confirmation of all that is written of Christ's coming. It was that confirmation that "restores all things."

At the very least the correction that John came in the Spirit of Elijah and is not Elijah himself, highlights a future unfinished work (i.e the restoration or the better word “Re-constitution of all things" which relate of course to Israel. It also reveals there is a slight willingness on your part to learn (a positive) something @Aunty Jane failed to do.

Are you willing to explore Malachi to prove such a future work?

F2F

 

[ScottA]

Correct his role was only to turn many hearts not all - Elijah's work is still yet to be manifested in the earth.



At the very least the correction that John came in the Spirit of Elijah and is not Elijah himself, highlights a future unfinished work (i.e the restoration or the better word “Re-constitution of all things" which relate of course to Israel. It also reveals there is a slight willingness on your part to learn (a positive) something @Aunty Jane failed to do.

Are you willing to explore Malachi to prove such a future work?

F2F

I will walk through it with you...but no, you have it wrong.

By saying It is not finished, you speak against Christ. It is finished indeed, in fact we who are His "were" crucified with Him (past tense)--which was and is that "re-constitution of all things."

 

[face2face]

Many hearts were turned to God, and many not. Nonetheless, John the Baptist did indeed "Prepare the way of the Lord" and restored all things to make "His paths straight."

It is a misunderstanding to think that John needed to make everyone perfect--that was not his part. He just needed to fulfill, "the voice of on crying in the wilderness", which was the confirmation of all that is written of Christ's coming. It was that confirmation that "restores all things."

So lets move back into the OT to better undestand Jesus' words concerning John the Baptist and Elijah.

Malachi 3:1

3:1 “I am about to send my messenger, who will clear the way before me. Indeed, the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom you long for, is certainly coming,” says the Lord who rules over all.

It's not often you get a dual prophecy!

Who is the "my messenger" and who is the "messenger of the covenant"?

 

[face2face]

I will walk through it with you...but no, you have it wrong.

By saying It is not finished, you speak against Christ. It is finished indeed, in fact we who are His "were" crucified with Him (past tense)--which was and is that "re-constitution of all things."

Scott, the redemptive work of Christ is complete we are now moving forward to the reconciliation of all things concerning Israel and in fact the rest of the world. As I've shown you...you are wasting your time trying to convince me the restoration of all things is past - Christ has already shown you Elijah must needs come!
Lets work through Malachi as this will speak beautifully to the Lords words concerning the future work of Elijah in preparing the way for his second coming.

 

[ScottA]

So lets move back into the OT to better undestand Jesus' words concerning John the Baptist and Elijah.

Malachi 3:1

3:1 “I am about to send my messenger, who will clear the way before me. Indeed, the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom you long for, is certainly coming,” says the Lord who rules over all.

It's not often you get a dual prophecy!

Who is the "my messenger" and who is the "messenger of the covenant"?

Scott, the redemptive work of Christ is complete we are now moving forward to the reconciliation of all things concerning Israel and in fact the rest of the world. As I've shown you...you are wasting your time trying to convince me the restoration of all things is past - Christ has already shown you Elijah must needs come!
Lets work through Malachi as this will speak beautifully to the Lords words concerning the future work of Elijah in preparing the way for his second coming.

Indeed, perhaps I am wasting my time...as I quoted Jesus saying Elijah had already come--but you have rejected it, which is to say you have rejected Him who said it.

As for the second coming of Jesus, it is my witness that after coming the first time and then going to the Father as He said He would, that He has returned to me, and I have received Him, and He me.

 

[face2face]

Indeed, perhaps I am wasting my time...as I quoted Jesus saying Elijah had already come--but you have rejected it, which is to say you have rejected Him who said it.

As shown the Spirit of Elijah came in John the Baptist and Jesus clearly said Elijah is yet to come - ah that's the point!

...and the irony is your remarks are aimed at you...which is often the case when one misinterprets Scripture.

As for the second coming of Jesus, it is my witness that after coming the first time and then going to the Father as He said He would, that He has returned to me, and I have received Him, and He me.

That may be true - it appears you are willing to not build a future vision with great clarity but remain in a self imposed darkness. There is nothing to fear in learning the truth concerning Christ's future work with natural Israel, after all its the work of the saints! Jeremiah 3:15

Maybe its not a work you desire to do or be apart of?

How can you know if it's not revealed?

F2F.

 

[ScottA]

As shown the Spirit of Elijah came in John the Baptist and Jesus clearly said Elijah is yet to come - ah that's the point!

...and the irony is your remarks are aimed at you...which is often the case when one misinterprets Scripture.



That may be true - it appears you are willing to not build a future vision with great clarity but remain in a self imposed darkness. There is nothing to fear in learning the truth concerning Christ's future work with natural Israel, after all its the work of the saints! Jeremiah 3:15

Maybe its not a work you desire to do or be apart of?

How can you know if it's not revealed?

F2F.

I am not going to requote Jesus saying what you continue to reject.

But you are apparently assuming that there is no truth to what Jesus said about things not being what you expect, and that both Peter and Paul foretold false teachings in the church and strong delusion, as you seem to agree with what was taught. I don't, and I don't because it is indeed revealed.

 

[face2face]

@ScottA

It's not clear from your posts that you understand that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Elijah and that the people of Israel were expecting Elijah who of course is yet to be raised - in other words they didn't understand Malachi's prophecy on the messengers (plural!)

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he (John) is Elijah (in Spirit and purpose), who is to come (future). 11:15 The one who has ears had better listen!

Is it ironic you do not want to listen to the Lord?
I mean Christ's teaching could not be any clearer and yet you hold onto your own wisdom at what cost? Deafness & blindness?

I've invited you to inquire further into Malachi to show you what the Scribes and Pharisees missed and you say "O well maybe I should move one!"

It's staggering this Christian condition still exists

F2F

 

[face2face]

I am not going to requote Jesus saying what you continue to reject.

But you are apparently assuming that there is no truth to what Jesus said about things not being what you expect, and that both Peter and Paul foretold false teachings in the church and strong delusion, as you seem to agree with what was taught. I don't, and I don't because it is indeed revealed.

I've shown you with absolute clarity there is a future work for Elijah at his 2nd coming and you have no interest in learning it?

What more can be done than what has already been done?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@ScottA You believe that this prophecy (Malachi 3:1 & Malachi 4:5) was fulfilled in John the Baptist, but when he was asked if he was Elijah, or some other prophet he answered, “I am not,” “I am not,” “No” (John 1:19-21).

(Your first problem to overcome!)

Rather, he testified that he was “the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord” (John 1:21,23) as prophesied in Isa 40:3.

In Matthew 11:14, Jesus testified of John the Baptist, “And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which is to come.” Check out also these passages:

Matthew 17:10-13; Mark 9:11-13.

Now did Jesus ever tell us that John the Baptist is the Elijah of Malachi 4:5?

John the Baptist said he was not.

Did Jesus contradict him?

This can be understood when we read Luke 1:16-17.

John was NOT sent in the person of Elijah, but ordained by God to prepare the way for Jesus at his FIRST COMING in the spirit and power that Elijah possessed.

This does not deny that Elijah himself will actually come again in his physical presence when Jesus returns to earth, but is rather a partial fulfilment.

In Christ’s day most of the Jews rejected him (many not the restoration of all!) while the Gentiles accepted him

The mission of Elijah is to prepare for the SECOND COMING of Christ, before “the great and terrible day” . Elijah’s preparatory work will be to prepare the Israelites for their Messiah, to “turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers” in its totality (i.e restore all things). When Jesus reveals himself to them, they will “look upon him whom they have pierced and mourn for him” (Zechariah 12:10).

And you know the irony in that day - is the Jews will now accept him, while most of the Gentiles will reject him!

You are manifesting that rejecting spirit in your posts and you dont even realize it.

F2F

Note: the people couldn't even see John the Baptist as an Elijah pattern rejecting him and the one he came to prepare the way for - you wait until they see the real Elijah in the earth to purge the dross from Israel!

 

[face2face]

“…What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?...”

Jesus tried to reach his listeners... By using this allegory, Jesus was, in fact, pointing out the reliability and constancy of John, that he was anything but a reed shaken by the wind! John’s followers knew that his testimony and his way of life did not change to please his audience no matter who they were and however powerful!

Like you his listeners had made their minds up and would not heed his teachings.

It will be different in that great and terrible day when hearts will melt and be ready for Elijah's heart turning message.

Be on your way then.

F2F

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA

It's not clear from your posts that you understand that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Elijah and that the people of Israel were expecting Elijah who of course is yet to be raised - in other words they didn't understand Malachi's prophecy on the messengers (plural!)

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he (John) is Elijah (in Spirit and purpose), who is to come (future). 11:15 The one who has ears had better listen!

Is it ironic you do not want to listen to the Lord?
I mean Christ's teaching could not be any clearer and yet you hold onto your own wisdom at what cost? Deafness & blindness?

I've invited you to inquire further into Malachi to show you what the Scribes and Pharisees missed and you say "O well maybe I should move one!"

It's staggering this Christian condition still exists

F2F

Mat 11:14

And G2532 if G1487 ye will G2309 receive G1209 it, this G846 is G2076 Elias, G2243 which G3588 was for G3195 to come. G2064
​

I tell you...the translation can be believed both ways: But what you have believed was born out of unbelief, the cause of great apostacy.

But I have not refused you, but corrected you...you who would not hear anything.

 

[ScottA]

I've shown you with absolute clarity there is a future work for Elijah at his 2nd coming and you have no interest in learning it?

What more can be done than what has already been done?

F2F

You refused the clear word from Christ.

You can believe what was also written of these times, and repent.

 

[face2face]

Malachi 4:5

John’s ‘spirit’ was to save, through “the voice” Matthew 3:5

Elijah went to Sinai to procure the destruction of his people as per Romans 11:2 and was redirected to save by the “still small voice” 1 Kings 19:9-13

John coming in the Spirit of Elijah but NOT Elijah

Elijah will reappear to prevent the destruction of his people as Malachi 4:5-6

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So this prophecy is positioned beyond Christ's first coming and relates to Israel's obedience at his second coming.

To be cont...

 

[face2face]

Mat 11:14

And G2532 if G1487 ye will G2309 receive G1209 it, this G846 is G2076 Elias, G2243 which G3588 was for G3195 to come. G2064
​

I tell you...the translation can be believed both ways: But what you have believed was born out of unbelief, the cause of great apostacy.

But I have not refused you, but corrected you...you who would not hear anything.

Take a break Scott and spend time in prayer and meditation of these facts...take it up tomorrow with a clear mind.
God be with you.