The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Good stuff here. I appreciate the patient teaching and give God glory for it.

I cannot see into people's hearts or try to guess the motives of anyone here. I can only examine why OSAS once appealed to me. But I feel like people think without hyper-grace and OSAS they cannot have a relationship with the Lord. They dont believe God is able to make them stand and not stumble against Him.

I also feel like once you get into an OSAS mindset, it can lead you to feel superior to anyone who "relies on works". Spiritual superiority is an addictive feeling that can be hard to let go of.

There's also the simple fact that sin feels top good to give up but we want to be assured that were okay in that.

No matter what the reason, Ive found that many are not willing to be wrong about OSAS.

Hebrews 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,


How then is obedience legalism? How is it missing the mark of salvation?

Are we willing to risk our souls on something that isn't biblically supported? Why not rather throw out all the things youve heard and read the Scriptures with fresh eyes, just looking to see what it plainly says?

Works salvation isn't Biblically supported.

Eternal salvation, the gift of God, not of ourselves so that we may not boast, is.
Just as wilfull sin thinking eternal heaven is assured, is not. Ever.

Those who are in Christ DO NOT make a habit of sinning.

Those who do make a habit of sinning DO NOT know Christ, and he does not know them. Which means they are not in the grace of God.

While the works, acts, of those in Christ is because we are saved by God's grace.
We hear his voice now,unlike the natural minded, and serve his will on earth. Because he leads us. Not because it saves us.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Those who are in Christ DO NOT make a habit of sinning.

“…go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

“…go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

Exactly.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

He has in own self righteous plan.

I do not believe righteousness is anywhere in their zip code.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Prov.21:1-3 ( cxt )
V.2. Every way of a man is right in his OWN eyes: but the Lord pondereth the HEARTS.

Is.5:19-22 ( cxt )
V.21. Woe unto them that are WISE IN THEIR OWN EYES, and prudent in their own sight.

Gal.6:2-5 ( cxt )
3. For if a man THINK HIMSELF TO BE SOMETHING, when he is nothing, HE DECEIVETH HIMSELF.
4.But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone.

We are warned, ALL OF US, repeatedly to be careful in our thoughts and words. We are told to think of ourselves as the most lowly and our brethern as higher than us.

Do ppl think JESUS ESTEEMED HIMSELF ? He put the FATHERS will first, then he placed us above himself in showing no greater love has a man for another than that he lay down his life for us.

Braggarts,
Boasters,
Vain,
Proud,
Egotistical,
Narcissists !

Our big-headedness & our pig-headedness comes shining thru in our self glorying posts !

We are all guilty !
Sin much ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see the cut and paste king is at it again. Just as he was as “loveGodForever” in christian chat. Nothing changes

Actually, you got the wrong guy. That was not my username there.

When I do copy and paste, many times it is my own written work from my own personal study in the Word of God.
But if it is another person’s work, I do provide the source link to their write up.
Most of my work is merely compiling the verses. The issue is that most in your camp simply do not explain them.
Those few who do try to explain the verses attempt to change the plain meaning of that verse because they don’t like what it says.
Take for example Philippians 2:12. You guys don’t like the idea of fearing God, and so you change the word fear to not be fear in Philippians 2:12.
This is the type of deception or strong delusion that I am dealing with here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The plan if salvation is non-existent in the new testament?

I was referring to the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist’s version of a plan of salvation is non-existent. The sayings that all you have to do is believe in Jesus and nothing else is a false teaching. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

I know what you're on about now. You're auditioning for post writer at the Babylon Bee.

Grace, and peace to you in the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly.

I often hear people who promote "sinless perfection" quote John 8:11 in which Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more." Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Prov.21:1-3 ( cxt )
V.2. Every way of a man is right in his OWN eyes: but the Lord pondereth the HEARTS.

Is.5:19-22 ( cxt )
V.21. Woe unto them that are WISE IN THEIR OWN EYES, and prudent in their own sight.

Gal.6:2-5 ( cxt )
3. For if a man THINK HIMSELF TO BE SOMETHING, when he is nothing, HE DECEIVETH HIMSELF.
4.But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone.

We are warned, ALL OF US, repeatedly to be careful in our thoughts and words. We are told to think of ourselves as the most lowly and our brethern as higher than us.

Do ppl think JESUS ESTEEMED HIMSELF ? He put the FATHERS will first, then he placed us above himself in showing no greater love has a man for another than that he lay down his life for us.

Braggarts,
Boasters,
Vain,
Proud,
Egotistical,
Narcissists !

Our big-headedness & our pig-headedness comes shining thru in our self glorying posts !

We are all guilty !
Sin much ?

Yes, we need to put Jesus and His desires above our own just as Jesus put the Father and His desires above His own.

We do all need to examine ourselves indeed. But I think the issue at heart is having a correct view of sin and salvation to begin with. Many Christians today think they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and all future sin is paid for. So living holy is not as necessary or one can just live a little bit holy and yet also slip in some sin (so as to justify it). The believer who believes sin can destroy their soul could be doing wrong, but if his sin is pointed out, or God chastens him on that sin, He can stop and treat sin properly. But the Belief Alone Salvationist is not capable of this. They believe they can sin and still be saved on some level (because all sin in the future is paid for). They may not go out and get drunk and sleep around, but if they believe they justify other smaller sins (that the Bible condemns), then they are no different than Hyper Grace Christians who do think they can do extreme types of evil and be saved while doing such evil.

The issue at heart here is the false teaching that a person can just believe in the finished work of the cross saying (Which is a Protestant saying), and yet they are saved by believing this fairy tale. Meaning, they don’t have to worry about how one ultimately lives to enter the Kingdom. They will say we are legalists even if we quote the Bible. That’s the real heart of the issue here. They don’t accept the whole counsel of God’s Word. That’s what is going on here. It has nothing to do with me but it has to do with what the Bible says. We all must tremble at His Word, but the OSAS crowd (or the Sin and Still Be Saved Christian) does not tremble at His Word. There is no real reason to. They got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven and that’s it. No debate for them (even when Scripture condemns their belief).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I often hear people who promote "sinless perfection" quote John 8:11 in which Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more." Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."

But if that was the reality, then Jesus would be telling her to do something that was impossible for her to do.
That would be like telling her to shoot rays of sunshine from her eyes, or to fly like a bird. If things were as you say, Jesus would have said for her to do her best to always fight against sin (even those she is a slave to her sin). But that’s not what Jesus said. He said… “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11). You don’t like that. You also don’t like Philippians 2:12. So yeah. You change that too. Fear don’t mean fear. “Sin no more” does not mean “sin no more.” You guys can just keep changing the Bible all you like today, but one day… you will have to face your Maker and explain to Him why you simply just did not believe Him in what He plainly said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works salvation isn't Biblically supported.

Sure it is.

Works For Salvation Verses & Passages
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Oh, and here is a…

Bonus verse & passage:

#16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Thank you again.

Yes, we need to put Jesus and His desires above our own just as Jesus put the Father and His desires above His own.

We do all need to examine ourselves indeed. But I think the issue at heart is having a correct view of sin and salvation to begin with. Many Christians today think they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and all future sin is paid for. So living holy is not as necessary or one can just live a little bit holy and yet also slip in some sin (so as to justify it). The believer who believes sin can destroy their soul could be doing wrong, but if his sin is pointed out, or God chastens him on that sin, He can stop and treat sin properly. But the Belief Alone Salvationist is not capable of this. They believe they can sin and still be saved on some level (because all sin in the future is paid for). They may not go out and get drunk and sleep around, but if they believe they justify other smaller sins (that the Bible condemns), then they are no different than Hyper Grace Christians who do think they can do extreme types of evil and be saved while doing such evil.

The issue at heart here is the false teaching that a person can just believe in the finished work of the cross saying (Which is a Protestant saying), and yet they are saved by believing this fairy tale. Meaning, they don’t have to worry about how one ultimately lives to enter the Kingdom. They will say we are legalists even if we quote the Bible. That’s the real heart of the issue here. They don’t accept the whole counsel of God’s Word. That’s what is going on here. It has nothing to do with me but it has to do with what the Bible says. We all must tremble at His Word, but the OSAS crowd (or the Sin and Still Be Saved Christian) does not tremble at His Word. There is no real reason to. They got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven and that’s it. No debate for them (even when Scripture condemns their belief).

Thanks again.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Sure it is.

Works For Salvation Verses & Passages
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Oh, and here is a…

Bonus verse & passage:

#16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

1 Corinthians 2.

Thank you again for your example of verse 14.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you again.

You say that you guys don’t make a practice of sinning or one is not truly saved.
The thing is when push comes to shove when I hear these kinds of statements, there is always some kind of double talk later against obeying God or how one is a saved sinner, etcetera.

Whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23).
This means everything we should be doing should be with the faith in mind.
What about looking back after putting one’s hand to the plow (i.e. preaching the gospel)? (See: Luke 9:62).
What about helping the poor in Matthew 25:31-46?

So what is the difference between practicing sin and not doing so?
Can you give some examples of not practicing sin?
What sins fall under the not practicing sin realm? Murder? Lying? Hating? Anger?
Are believers who backslide into a lifestyle of sin saved?
Many in your camp say they are saved.

Just check out this article here.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

If that is the case, then one can deceive themselves to think they can live prodigal most of their life, and be saved.

Here is another scenario: A believer who generally lived a holy life had one day looked upon a woman in lust and then immediately got hit by a bus and died instantly. Are they still saved?

Most in your camp say they are still saved (because he was not practicing this sin).

But the Bible says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.

So based on Scripture, this believer would not be saved because they did not confess of their sin with the intention of forsaking that sin. So if that is the case, and you disagree and think they are saved, then you are justifying smaller amounts of sin under God's grace. It's okay to sin as long as it is done on occasion or it is not habitual sin or practicing sin. But nowhere does God approve of even one sin as being okay. It only took one sin by Adam for the fall of mankind to happen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 2.

Thank you again for your example of verse 14.

Keep reading. The natural man is in context to the Corinthians (at this point in time) who were justifying the sins of strife and envy in 1 Corinthians 3:3. In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul says that those who do these kinds of sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Inherit the Kingdom is dealing with salvation because Jesus says to those on His right hand who helped the poor in this life to inherit the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34) which is contrasted with those on his left hand who did not help the poor and they were told to depart from Him into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41).

Remember, Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Do you agree with the words of Jesus on how looking upon a woman in lust can cause one to be in danger of hellfire? (See: Matthew 5:28-30). How is that teaching even consistent with the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist viewpoint today? It isn’t.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works salvation isn't Biblically supported.

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6 and Titus 3:5 are all dealing with Initial Salvation.
Just read the context and this is evident.
Paul was also speaking against the heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” which basically is the false teaching that was going on during that time that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, etcetera). But that does not mean that after one is saved initially by God's grace (without works), Paul does not speak elsewhere about how you need to live holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation (Which does include good works or the work of faith) (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Romans 8:13) (1 Timothy 5:8) (1 Timothy 6:12) (Titus 1:16). For Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Eternal salvation, the gift of God, not of ourselves so that we may not boast, is.

This would be Works ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace that Paul condemned via by the Old Law (like circumcision, dietary laws, and holy days). Paul did not condemn how we must obey God (with the Laws of Christ) to enter the Kingdom after we are saved by God’s grace.

Just as wilfull sin thinking eternal heaven is assured, is not. Ever.

Those who are in Christ DO NOT make a habit of sinning.

Those who do make a habit of sinning DO NOT know Christ, and he does not know them. Which means they are not in the grace of God.

While the works, acts, of those in Christ is because we are saved by God's grace.
We hear his voice now,unlike the natural minded, and serve his will on earth. Because he leads us. Not because it saves us.

There are many kinds of sins that I am not sure you are even aware of in the New Testament because your focus is all wrong. For you: It’s just on believe in Jesus for salvation and not in keeping His commands in the New Testament.

The issue is not even practicing sin, either. One sin can condemn a person. For example: Ananias and Sapphira each were died by God because they lied to the Spirit. A great fear came upon the church when they heard this. Meaning they went to hell because of their one time sin and others feared that something similar could happen to them. So what do you make of that? How is this narrative consistent with your belief?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Works salvation isn't Biblically supported.

Eternal salvation, the gift of God, not of ourselves so that we may not boast, is.
Just as wilfull sin thinking eternal heaven is assured, is not. Ever.

Those who are in Christ DO NOT make a habit of sinning.

Those who do make a habit of sinning DO NOT know Christ, and he does not know them. Which means they are not in the grace of God.

While the works, acts, of those in Christ is because we are saved by God's grace.
We hear his voice now,unlike the natural minded, and serve his will on earth. Because he leads us. Not because it saves us.

This is a famous Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist contradiction.

They love to say that the saved will not practice habitual sin or they were never saved is just double speak to their other previous statements on how one does not obey because it saves.

However, you are not forced against your will to obey God. You have to study His Word to know His commands. Then you need to learn how to apply all His commands to your life. It’s not just automatic obedience in everything perfectly. It’s not an overnight change for all believers instantly where they are helping the poor, loving their enemies, forgiving others, etcetera from day one. We must walk in the Spirit in order to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). Also, suffering in the flesh also causes us to cease from sin, as well (1 Peter 4:1-2).

In other words, I don’t’ believe those who say they don’t make a practice of habitual sinning to show they are saved. If they truly believed that way, then they would be behind backing us when it comes to how obedience is a part of the salvation equation. Even if the work itself did not save, the fact that works or living holy on some level needs to be there shows that a person is saved simply makes it clear that holiness is a part of salvation. To say that holy living or works do not save, means one can sin and still be saved on some level. That’s just the only conclusion to draw here. That's why many of you don't post Scripture and you insult us personally and or you get upset, etcetera.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good stuff here. I appreciate the patient teaching and give God glory for it.

I cannot see into people's hearts or try to guess the motives of anyone here. I can only examine why OSAS once appealed to me. But I feel like people think without hyper-grace and OSAS they cannot have a relationship with the Lord. They dont believe God is able to make them stand and not stumble against Him.

I also feel like once you get into an OSAS mindset, it can lead you to feel superior to anyone who "relies on works". Spiritual superiority is an addictive feeling that can be hard to let go of.

There's also the simple fact that sin feels top good to give up but we want to be assured that were okay in that.

No matter what the reason, Ive found that many are not willing to be wrong about OSAS.

Hebrews 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,


How then is obedience legalism? How is it missing the mark of salvation?

Are we willing to risk our souls on something that isn't biblically supported? Why not rather throw out all the things youve heard and read the Scriptures with fresh eyes, just looking to see what it plainly says?

I agree. Well said, sister. I think we need to pray like never before for those who are into this kind of thing knee deep. Only God can truly break the strong holds that has wrapped around their minds.

May the Lord Jesus bless you and your family.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good stuff here. I appreciate the patient teaching and give God glory for it.

I cannot see into people's hearts or try to guess the motives of anyone here. I can only examine why OSAS once appealed to me. But I feel like people think without hyper-grace and OSAS they cannot have a relationship with the Lord. They dont believe God is able to make them stand and not stumble against Him.

I also feel like once you get into an OSAS mindset, it can lead you to feel superior to anyone who "relies on works". Spiritual superiority is an addictive feeling that can be hard to let go of.

There's also the simple fact that sin feels top good to give up but we want to be assured that were okay in that.

No matter what the reason, Ive found that many are not willing to be wrong about OSAS.

Hebrews 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,


How then is obedience legalism? How is it missing the mark of salvation?

Are we willing to risk our souls on something that isn't biblically supported? Why not rather throw out all the things youve heard and read the Scriptures with fresh eyes, just looking to see what it plainly says?

I believed in OSAS for like an hour or two (Because of the words of Pastor at a church), and then when I went home to examine it more with Scripture, I knew it was instantly false. In fact, the more I examined it over the years, my list of verses only grew more, and more against OSAS.

But most I think just want it to be true despite what the Bible says because it caters to self and their sin in some way. It’s also easy. Everybody likes easy. Nobody wants to struggle to pick up their cross and deny themselves for Jesus. Many Christians today love worldly sinful movies, and music etcetera, too. These are hard things for many to give up. So this is also what we are battling against.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

people who promote "sinless perfection" quote John 8:11 in which Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more."

Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery.

But all the other sins she was “practicing” were okay, huh Dan?

Religious false doctrines do strange things to otherwise intelligent and cunning men in other matters…

“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.” (Jeremiah 4:22)