Can we ever stop sinning or be perfect?

[Wynona]

Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men it is impossible, but not so with God; for all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10:27)

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (Romans 7:18-20)

I think I am in agreement with Marks that God does indeed give this as a gift, if only for times and seasons. Certainly John Wesley thought so, though he would not claim it for himself. However, God gives the gift to whomever He sovereignly decides to give it. And I strongly suspect the gift is relatively rare.

Unfortunately, I've seen the devastating effects the expectation that if we are saved, we will walk sinless in this life can have on a person's trust. We don't realize how deeply the power of Sin permeates us, and if God doesn't give us that gift, besetting sins and accumulated decades of stumbles can make us question whether God has truly regenerated us, whether God truly intends to save us at all.

I also cannot resist saying that, from what I've seen, so many who claim to be walking sinlessly say so with such obvious pride and lack of compassion for others that I've become cynical about the whole thing.

Now I need to go repent of my cynicism.

The Bible doesn't say that the ability not to sin is a gift given at random times. It's something all believers have. But if we don't believe we can stop sinning, then we wont.

Which particular sin is so strong that Jesus can't bring you out of?

You can't use Romans 7 to say that all believers do the evil they wish not to do. Paul is talking about his experience with the law of Moses.

The law of Christ, to love one another, to give to the poor, to witness and make disciples, etc isn't optional.

God promises that if we confess our sins, we are forgiven. Period. We may fall many times but if we get back up, we are still on the race.

Salvation isn't just one-time event but a path.

I have so many sins and failures in my past that Im now ashamed of, even after I initially got saved. Things I don't really share on here But I read in Ezekiel that if I followed God today I would be saved and it released me from all that baggage.

Its the devil that gives the baggage, Lambano. We can always start over and follow God today. Leave the past behind. Let tomorrow worry about itself. Focus on following the Lord today.

 

[Wynona]

Sure I do not mind sharing with you. When a person becomes a believers the person now will have a new nature with-in them which was dead prior. There is a constant a battle between the flesh and spirit. This is something that should be considered, by reading what Paul had wrote to the Galatians and it is noted as by Paul which you will come to in Romans chapter 7 when you are reading that there is nothing good that comes from our flesh.

Does that mean we can do good and nice things to people ? Yes a person can. However there is something more that comes through us and out of us when a person makes the decision to allow the Holy Spirit of God, and the Spirt of Christ to come in and through them which is totally of spiritual nature rather than our natural fleshly nature. This would bring forth more glorifying to God in the things which He does in and through us, by abiding in the Lord Yeshua, as noted in John 15.

Simply something to consider.






The Confidence in the flesh is where you put God on the back burner for anything that he has provided for you to do by and through the Spirit. You will read in your going through of Romans what I mean here, you will find it in Romans Chapter 8, and perhaps you will understand what I am talking about more thoroughly. What I mean by putting confidence in the flesh is where you glorify in yourself something you did without God being in the mist of it, or (BY THE SPIRIT) (Keyword here you will run across).





Yes, Pride is a sin, but that doesn't mean you can not be proud l in what you have accomplished (As long it is not boastful infront of others or bringing them down) in the bible you can find where it states that (Galatians), Where it speaks as do not compare yourself to others, just look at your own work to see if there anything you are proud of. That is okay. Allow God to be the one whom you glory in when you are able to overcome obstacles that comes into your life. It is always good to share good things learned in which God helps us be able to accomplish by and through the Holy Spirit.

My only encouragement is this, do not be to hard on yourself. Even today in my flesh there are times I do fail, however I am not whipping my back with a whip, or telling myself that I am not good enough. God and his grace is sufficient for you just as much as it was for Paul.

My hope is that you find this encouraging and may you search the scriptures and that the Holy Spirit will bring you the truths here, though it might be difficult to understand now if I am not very clear which hopefully this was all, may it be a benefit to your walk in Christ, and keep praying and asking God about these things.

I don't beat myself up either. Not anymore. It does no good. If I sin, I confess it and move on.

What I can't agree with is the idea that obedience to God is putting confidence in the flesh. We have to trust God to and rely on His Spirit to be obedient.

 

[Lambano]

You can't use Romans 7 to say that all believers do the evil they wish not to do. Paul is talking about his experience with the law of Moses.

No, that's exactly what Paul is saying. Believers, those who are alive (Romans 7:9) do the evil they know they shouldn't, and they don't do the good they know they should do. Torah just points out Sin for what it is. (Romans 7:13) And it kills. (Romans 7:11)

The Bible doesn't say that the ability not to sin is a gift given at random times. It's something all believers have. But if we don't believe we can stop sinning, then we wont.

Which particular sin is so strong that Jesus can't bring you out of?

He can. I have no doubt about that.

So, why aren't you and I and everyone here on the board better than we are?

 

[Davy]

I strongly believe the following Scripture by Lord Jesus is what He was pointing to about those who think they cannot sin anymore after having believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized...

Matt 7:19-23
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

KJV

Lord Jesus is pointing to the day of His future return.

Many will then claim to have been His followers with, "Lord, Lord". And there's no doubt those of verse 22 thought they were following Him, because they claimed to have "prophesied in Thy name", "and in Thy name have cast out devils", and "in Thy name done many wonderful works". That certainly cannot apply to an unbeliever on Him.

So what problem did Lord Jesus point to that they had? And He did point out a specific problem they had.

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."


This is why heeding 1 John 1 about repenting to Christ once we find ourselves in future sin is so important. It is so as to MAINTAIN OUR WALK by The Spirit with Jesus.

Otherwise, we can have all kinds of good works done in His name, but if we think we can't have sin anymore, that means we haven't bothered to ask Him to forgive us of that.

This situation would be like a son or daughter that does wrong, and the father realizes it and is waiting for their child on their own will to confess they did wrong. At some point, if that child never repents, either because they don't want to, or just doesn't know any better, a loving father that does know better will take action and discipline the child, showing their error. Well, with this future event of Christ's return, that... is when Jesus will reveal to those of His believers that disregarded their sinning, and will tell those to get away from Him.

That's why it is best to 'check' ourself for future sin, and repent to Jesus Christ, even daily if we feel we need it.

 

[Wrangler]

I think a reasonable summary is that while we are perfect in Christ, we are not always perfectly in Christ.

 

[Wynona]

No, that's exactly what Paul is saying. Believers, those who are alive (Romans 7:9) do the evil they know they shouldn't, and they don't do the good they know they should do.

Paul was not speaking about being alive in Christ in that sentence. He was speaking about being alive before he heard the commandments of the law of Moses and became a Pharisee.

Romans 7:9

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Romans 7 is just a snippet of a whole letter. It is a setup for Romans 8.

The very next chapter, Romans 8, is all about being free from the law of sin and death through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:13

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

When we become believers, we get the Holy Spirit. By the Holy Spirit we are to put to death the deeds of the body.

 

[Wrangler]

Is that what you have placed your faith in for salvation? Sinless performance?

Great question! Salvation by works.

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

That Scripture is the ticket!

 

[Wynona]

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

I don't know anyone who claims this. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus lived an entirely sinless life.

I do believe that we can and ought to learn to not sin as we walk with the Lord.

In 1 John it also says My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

 

[MatthewG]

All I know Wynona,

is that even when Christians battle with scripture, it is still a failure of the flesh.

People believe and think what they want to even with use of the scripture…

Nothing wrong about being obedient to God, That would be to believe on His Son Whom He had sent and to love one another as yourself.

1 John 3:23

What people believe they forget that even fighting and battle of scripture is a failure in the flesh.

 

[Nancy]

So it’s @Davy vs the Holy Bible.

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin… and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil...” (1 John 3:9-10)

And the winner by KO is the Holy Bible!

You lose @Davy

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

This tells me that yes, there will still be some sin residue left in us.
Just

 

[Michiah-Imla]

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

If any man sin other than “we”, Because we:

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

And our Advocate teaches:

“…Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

Otherwise, our Advocate will not be mocked after being trodden over:

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins… Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Galatians 6:7-8)


BE NOT DECEIVED!

 

[marks]

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

This tells me that yes, there will still be some sin residue left in us.
Just

Hebrews 7:25 KJV
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

God's assurance to us!

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

This tells me that yes, there will still be some sin residue left in us.
Just

Amen my sister.

Thinking about this subject and how people tend to battle out scripture with scripture, and opinion with opinions.

My conclusion was this. God doesn't love you more just because you 'do more for him', God loves you just the same as the next person who believes on the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Each and every person is responsible for their relationship with God, which God himself deals with each person individually.

God is not a respecter of persons. Such as Meth Addict person who likes to go ice skating on the weekends on a tweak binge. And thsn Suzy sally who likes to go out and meet friends and go to social gatherings at church on late Sunday evenings to go eat with the Pastor and the Pastors wife.

God is not a respecter of a poor person more than a rich person at all... politics is so funny when it comes in to a Christians walk... and they look down on other people, it is really actually sad.

God is not a respecter of persons... It doesn't matter how much knowledge you might have, or how good you behave, or anything like that.

God looks at people all the same - and loves all people - and desires for people to look to Him and him in their lives if they CHOOSE TO.

God loves you for who you are and always starts were a person is at meth addicted, having trauma from father mother relationships, been sexually abused, and all of these things Jesus Christ was sent to heal a person in their soul (mind/will/emotion), and to heal the heart, and it is all done by and through the spirit...

There must be some strange idea "If I do more for God he will love me more, perhaps he will do more for me." Or something... I do not know.

What I do know God doesn't love you anymore less than he loves you, or any other person who look to the Lord Jesus Christ, and seek to worship God in spirit and in truth as God works in on them through their own heart. And God has allowed people to be able to carry this good news to others and that is something glorify God in... (by and through the Spirit given to the born-again Christian)

Not look at me God what I have done for you! That is backwards thinking.

It has always been Thank you God for all you have done, for all the world, because of your Son !

 

[Enoch111]

I want to answer this question with only Scripture.

Well since the Bible plainly tells you that your old Adamic nature ("the flesh") has not been eradicated, therein lies your answer.

But why are Christians so obsessed with sin and sinning? How about being obsessed with righteousness for a change? There are far too many threads along these lines. So perhaps this forum needs a separate section titled "Christians Love Talking About Sin", and all these threads can go into that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I want to answer this question with only Scripture.

There are two types of sins.

1 John 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

A Christian is freed from the sins in the Ten Commandments. We cannot steal, we cannot murder or commit adultery. If those drives are still in us, then Jesus is not inside of us.

The other type of sins have to do with immature fruit of the Spirit. 1 John 5:16-17 shows the two types. Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. Now look at 2 Peter 1:5-9. This is how to grow in the fruit of the Spirit, and Peter is harsh with those who don't.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

See how closely these steps toward perfection match the fruit of the Spirit: Galatians 5:22-23 "
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Immaturity in the fruit of the Spirit is the lesser type of sin that some call venial sins. The sins unto death are mortal sins, and what Jesus died to take away from us. We cannot commit these sins of lawlessness of murder, stealing, adultery, etc. from the Old Law, and why we are not under that law. There is no more need for them in a Spirit-filled Christian's life. We walk by the Spirit. But it is still in place for sinners.

Romans 6:6-7 shows us what is accomplished when we repent and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

We are crucified with Christ and die inside - our spirit and soul referred to as our carnal nature or old man, or what Paul calls our "flesh" (not our body). Then we are resurrected with Christ to live by the divine Spirit, and our new nature partakes of the divine nature of God.

2 Peter 1:2-4.
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

At the end of all these passages in 2 Peter 1 we see that a mature Christian, who is 1: freed from mortal sin, and 2. matured in all the fruit of the Spirit is perfect and can never stumble.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[marks]

I don't know anyone who claims this. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus lived an entirely sinless life.

I do believe that we can and ought to learn to not sin as we walk with the Lord.

In 1 John it also says My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

There are some who claim it. And there are those who "sort of" claim it, but by parsing some sins to be "OK" and some to not be "OK". Which I completely disagree with.

Much love!

 

[Wynona]

What people believe they forget that even fighting and battle of scripture is a failure in the flesh.

I don't understand. If we speak patiently and reason with the Scriptures, thats not sin.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't understand. If we speak patiently and reason with the Scriptures, thats not sin.

bickering and fighting it was it seems like most people tend to with scripture, people don’t realize it but it can be considered sin.

If you “fighting” “bickering” it is not being loving to your neighbor in all reality.

You see some points post share as though you can be sinless, you see some points that add which you still are going to sin.

It’s called using daggers to cut each other throats and most people really go unaware of it being done at all. The word of God is like a sword, and it can used as daggers to cut people… and all the people really do have a genuine heart for God hear as far I know, I can’t judge but you have a collaborative moving of different people and their subjective beliefs.

How can you cut all the B/S out?

Ask yourself this question will I fail in someway or at some point my life ever again? If you answer Yes, just know that because of Jesus Christ his blood covers your sins. No this doesn’t give anyone the license to sin, but it does make us aware that we will fail even if a person doesn’t want to. People need to accept this fact in life and stop wasting time over quibbles of

“can we stop sinning?” In certain aspects your life can change… it’s by the spirit, but that flesh of yours isn’t going to make you right before God…

Focus on doing things at are right and do things for the glory of the Lord and for his sake, but don’t think just because you try to perfect your flesh God is gonna love you more than he already does.

People just have to accept it, and move forward. Yes your gonna f**k up. It’s okay. God already knew that and that is why He sent His Son so that IN Him you can have newness of life by the spirit guiding you in your life and dying to your flesh.

Does that mean you can’t go see a rated R movie? Cause you’re gonna displease God? If you see it that way then rated R movie isn’t for you that is something you have to say to any of your friends that you can’t see it because you believe God would be ashamed of you for watching it to others.

Or does that mean you can’t listen to hard rock? Or rock in roll? Because God is gonna stop loving you?

There porn problems but does God stop loving his people because they have problems?

No! He doesn’t at all… he loves them and desires for them to be renewed in their mind so they can have a long life by and through the spirit, to have communication and have love for God and…. And….

Their fellow man no matter where they are in their life… or no matter how much knowledge they have or how much money they have or what they do or what they don’t do.

Jesus came and gave his life for you and the rest of the world, sure we are seen as his children…

But we were still loved by God already… before even knowing him…


people always battle and fight against sin and try to fight the social ills of the world…

God took care of those things through His Son, for all of eternity by that one single death on the cross and rose Him up again…

People for get this we should be resting in Him, and not making demands on people for what they should or shouldn’t do…

Don’t you believe God is powerful enough to take care of people by his very own spirit he sends?

Sorry got off a tangent but hope this does help it is ridiculous what people try to do others through religious manipulation b/s tactics


to make them fret as though they (that believe on His Son) or (don’t yet believe) aren’t enough for God it is sicking and I hate it.

Jesus is the one who is your righteousness not you… not your flesh. It’s all Him! (those who mature through time do put to death the misdeeds of the body, and do put more empathizes on the Spirit, becoming perfect (or mature in their faith) but it because of him whom deserves praise! (Even though we may still fall short from time to time).

 

[Nancy]

Amen my sister.

Thinking about this subject and how people tend to battle out scripture with scripture, and opinion with opinions.

My conclusion was this. God doesn't love you more just because you 'do more for him', God loves you just the same as the next person who believes on the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Each and every person is responsible for their relationship with God, which God himself deals with each person individually.

God is not a respecter of persons. Such as Meth Addict person who likes to go ice skating on the weekends on a tweak binge. And thsn Suzy sally who likes to go out and meet friends and go to social gatherings at church on late Sunday evenings to go eat with the Pastor and the Pastors wife.

God is not a respecter of a poor person more than a rich person at all... politics is so funny when it comes in to a Christians walk... and they look down on other people, it is really actually sad.

God is not a respecter of persons... It doesn't matter how much knowledge you might have, or how good you behave, or anything like that.

God looks at people all the same - and loves all people - and desires for people to look to Him and him in their lives if they CHOOSE TO.

God loves you for who you are and always starts were a person is at meth addicted, having trauma from father mother relationships, been sexually abused, and all of these things Jesus Christ was sent to heal a person in their soul (mind/will/emotion), and to heal the heart, and it is all done by and through the spirit...

There must be some strange idea "If I do more for God he will love me more, perhaps he will do more for me." Or something... I do not know.

What I do know God doesn't love you anymore less than he loves you, or any other person who look to the Lord Jesus Christ, and seek to worship God in spirit and in truth as God works in on them through their own heart. And God has allowed people to be able to carry this good news to others and that is something glorify God in... (by and through the Spirit given to the born-again Christian)

Not look at me God what I have done for you! That is backwards thinking.

It has always been Thank you God for all you have done, for all the world, because of your Son !

Perfect brother, agreed.

 

[Nancy]

If any man sin other than “we”, Because we:

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

And our Advocate teaches:

“…Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

Otherwise, our Advocate will not be mocked after being trodden over:

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins… Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Galatians 6:7-8)


BE NOT DECEIVED!

I suppose it all (again) comes down to what one thinks sin is, we can be hard on ourselves.
To me, lacking compassion for the most un-lovable person is a sin. To me, allowing someone to walk away without a need met if it is in your power to meet that need...especially unto the brethren, is a sin!
If a curse word escapes out of your mouth or lashing out in anger, no matter the reason, is a sin. Thoughts, imaginations also can be sin if fed on. You see, I don't separate sins, transgressions, iniquities, trespasses, and such. I know some on here do yet...if it is sin to you, it is sin.