Strange... he said the same of you? Who's the demon possessed heretic? You or him?
"The word was a god"?
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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Well, if one is deceived, BGTF, he/she can say anything and get around anything, and certainly will. To use a golf analogy, if one strikes a golf ball and cuts across the ball with the clubface at impact, the ball is not going to end up in the fairway, and there's a really good chance that it will end up out of bounds and in somebody's back yard. :)
Like Paul said, "the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4). That's exactly what's happening here.
Grace and peace to you.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Really... Because Jesus and the Bible says different... do you attend one of those occult Churchs... How may wives do you have? do you handle snakes? Do you flop on the floor and babble in your church?
HOWEVER... If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.
This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:
Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).
" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)
" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)
"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light." (Col 1:12)
"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)
This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?
What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to? Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and
serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me." But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.)
Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28).
To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that
only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a few examples:
Lot "worshipped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered
Sodom (Gen. 19:1).
Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).
Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).
Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).
Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).
David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).
David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).
The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).
These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to
men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God. But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say "bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.
So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative
worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned
greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they
worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph.1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ’s exaltation is the means to a higher end. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.
To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God
to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12).
There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.
Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps.2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received
relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).
What would you do without me... to guide you to the truth?
Paul
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Easy... Context
Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
Rev 4:9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."
Note... God is sitting on the throne in vs Chapter 4 and 5.... where is Jesus?
Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
Yes, ByGraceThroughFaith.... who is worthy to take the book from GOD!!!!
Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Note Jesus is not on the throne!!!
Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Now let's look at your verses...
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
And
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.
The Lamb is worthy to approach God... because the Lamb obeyed unto death!
Acts has a message for you ByGraceThroughFaith
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He (God who sits on the Throne) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man (worthy to take the book from God on that throne) whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
You starting to see yet?
Paul
Pierac, Jesus speaks of His glorious throne:
Now, this is the "new world" Jesus is referring to, the new heaven and new earth ~ Revelation 21 ~ and in there, God says:
Do you somehow think there are two thrones?
Surely not... :) Or, even if you somehow do, do you reckon one to be far inferior to the other? Again, surely not... :)
Grace and peace to you.
"Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne..." (Matthew 19:28)
Now, this is the "new world" Jesus is referring to, the new heaven and new earth ~ Revelation 21 ~ and in there, God says:
"Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God." (Revelation 21:3)
Do you somehow think there are two thrones?
Surely not... :) Or, even if you somehow do, do you reckon one to be far inferior to the other? Again, surely not... :)
Grace and peace to you.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Revelation 11:15
“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer either, to “His Christ (τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ)”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ (τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ)”. It is clear from the Book of Revelation that the latter is the correct way to understand this verse. This is clear that BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ will Reign Eternally Forever.
In chapter 22, verse 1, 3: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will Serve Him”.
Here we have, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”, clearly Two distinct Persons, “του θεου, του αρνιου”, but, “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. Again in verse 3 we have the same in the Greek, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, and the singular “του θρονου”. “His (αυτου, masc, sing) servants, shall Worship Him (αυτω, masc, sing). Not only the Father and Jesus Christ are JOINT in their Rule, but they are Served, and Worshipped TOGETHER, as in 5:14.
Only ones personal beliefs will cause them to reject the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, that Jesus Christ is not only The Creator God, but completely COEQUAL to God the Father.
No doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, ALMIGHTY GOD, 100% COEQUAL with the Father in the Godhead.
teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
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If you were speaking the truth, you wouldn't need so many words. That is what false teachers do instead of taking scripture as plainly stated.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Only by catholicism translating. The Greek word-Proskenaue has 5 different meanings from Greek to English- 1) Worship to God, 2) Obesiance to a king, 3 Honor to a judge, plus 2 others. It actually translates-to bow and kiss the feet. Since Israel religious leaders. and followers knew the Messiah was not God but has a God-Psalm 45:7, And that God appointed him as king( Daniel 7:13-15) The bible writers would not put worship to Jesus, Obesiance to Gods appointed king is what they really said. Catholicism twisted it to worship to fit their false council creation of a trinity God in the year 381 at the first Council of Constantinople. No trinity was EVER served by Gods true followers before 381 ce. It does not exist. No trinity was being taught or served at the first council of Nicea in 325 ce--In the 2nd century a man named Tertullian was considering God to be a trinity, Why? Because a single being God YHWH(Jehovah)-the Abrahamic God was served up until 381 CE by true followers. God did not change, Catholicism changed him by satans will to mislead all serving that non existent god into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily making them workers of iniquity and this will be their judgement-Matt 7:22-23. Satan beat billions living now centuries ago.
Because of all the confusion caused by satans interference, 34,000 religions claim to be christian. According to 1 Cor 1:10- a true mark, there is one that has Jesus. There is no division in Jesus' one religion.
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Keiw, just showed you in scriptures that the Christ is God WITH God and since the deity of Christ Jesus is under attack, I'll stand by what I have posted.
A pre-conceived mindset is difficult to change, especially when you read the D,var Hashem [YHVH] was along WITH Hashem[YHVH]=and was nothing LESS by nature, Elohim.
How powerful is this!
Your response showed me you have not read carefully since the eyes of the understanding needs to be illuminated by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yet Paul said...
1Co 2:2 For I made the decision not to have da'as of anything among you except Moshiach and nivlato al haEtz (his body –gufa, kerper--on the Tree Boim (Yiddish for tree), DEVARIM 21:23).
כִּי נֶחֱרָצָה בְלִבִּי לִבְלִי הִתְבּוֹנֵן בֵּינֵיכֶם אֶל־דָּבָר אַחֵר כִּי אִם־אֶל־יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָשִׁיחַ אֶל־הַנִּצְלָב׃
כי לא־אמרתי לדעת בתוככם דבר בלתי אם־ישוע המשיח והוא הנצלב׃
The Greek implies, “The only definite thing that I made it my business to know among you, was to know Jesus Christ (His person) and Him crucified (His office)” [Alford], not exalted on the earthly throne of David, but executed as the vilest malefactor. The historical fact of Christ’s crucifixion had probably been put less prominently forward by the seekers after human wisdom in the Corinthian church, to avoid offending learned heathens and Jews. Christ’s person and Christ’s office constitute the sum of the Gospel.
Time to promulgate Christ, Him crucified, Him resurrected, stale news for most, but ever refreshing for others, especially a lost and dying world.
J.
A pre-conceived mindset is difficult to change, especially when you read the D,var Hashem [YHVH] was along WITH Hashem[YHVH]=and was nothing LESS by nature, Elohim.
How powerful is this!
Your response showed me you have not read carefully since the eyes of the understanding needs to be illuminated by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yet Paul said...
1Co 2:2 For I made the decision not to have da'as of anything among you except Moshiach and nivlato al haEtz (his body –gufa, kerper--on the Tree Boim (Yiddish for tree), DEVARIM 21:23).
כִּי נֶחֱרָצָה בְלִבִּי לִבְלִי הִתְבּוֹנֵן בֵּינֵיכֶם אֶל־דָּבָר אַחֵר כִּי אִם־אֶל־יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָשִׁיחַ אֶל־הַנִּצְלָב׃
כי לא־אמרתי לדעת בתוככם דבר בלתי אם־ישוע המשיח והוא הנצלב׃
The Greek implies, “The only definite thing that I made it my business to know among you, was to know Jesus Christ (His person) and Him crucified (His office)” [Alford], not exalted on the earthly throne of David, but executed as the vilest malefactor. The historical fact of Christ’s crucifixion had probably been put less prominently forward by the seekers after human wisdom in the Corinthian church, to avoid offending learned heathens and Jews. Christ’s person and Christ’s office constitute the sum of the Gospel.
Time to promulgate Christ, Him crucified, Him resurrected, stale news for most, but ever refreshing for others, especially a lost and dying world.
J.
Now — Ye already have knowledge, utterance, and hope, maintain also love.
brethren — The very title is an argument for love.
by ... Christ — whom Paul wishes to be all in all to the Corinthians, and therefore names Him so often in this chapter.
speak ... same thing — not speaking different things as ye do (1Co_1:12), in a spirit of variance.
divisions — literally, “splits,” “breaches.”
but — “but rather.”
perfectly joined together — the opposite word to “divisions.” It is applied to healing a wound, or making whole a rent.
mind ... judgment — the view taken by the understanding, and the practical decision arrived at [Conybeare and Howson], as to what is to be done. The mind, within, refers to things to be believed: the judgment is displayed outwardly in things to be done [Bengel]. Disposition - opinion [Alford].
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had
a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a
father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.
The Greek word from which "undeserved kindness" is derived is charitos;
which itself is derived from charis (khar'-ece)
"undeserved kindness" isn't a translation of charis/charitos; rather, it's the
Watchtower Society's own opinion of what they think those words ought to
mean. The literal meaning is graciousness.
John Q and Jane Doe Witness are being deprived of viewing some very
pleasant aspects of the only-begotten Son's personality by interpreting charis
to mean undeserved kindness because graciousness says some wonderful
things about not only the flesh that the Word became; but also about the
Father from whom the Word came.
Webster's defines "graciousness" as; kind, courteous, inclined to good will,
generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial,
affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.
"Cordial" stresses warmth and heartiness
"Affable" implies easy to approach, and readiness to respond pleasantly to
conversation or requests or proposals
"Genial" stresses cheerfulness and even joviality
"Sociable" suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others
"Generous" is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz:
magnanimous, kindly, and liberal in giving
"Charitable" means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz:
benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.
"Altruistic" means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others;
viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels
good to do so.
"Tactful" indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain
good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary
conflict.
Here's a couple of passages from the NWT where the Society's translation
committee had the academic decency to let charis/charito speak for
themselves instead of butting in to tell people what they think those words
ought to mean.
"Keep on teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, praises to
God, spiritual songs with graciousness" (Col 3:16)
"Let your utterance be always with graciousness." (Col 4:6)
NOTE: The claim that the only begotten son is somehow undeserving of
kindness is of course 110% false. Worthiness is in every fiber of Christ's
being. (Dan 7:13-14, Phil 2:8 11, Rev 5:1-14, Rev 19:11)
_
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had
a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a
father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.
The Greek word from which "undeserved kindness" is derived is charitos;
which itself is derived from charis (khar'-ece)
"undeserved kindness" isn't a translation of charis/charitos; rather, it's the
Watchtower Society's own opinion of what they think those words ought to
mean. The literal meaning is graciousness.
John Q and Jane Doe Witness are being deprived of viewing some very
pleasant aspects of the only-begotten Son's personality by interpreting charis
to mean undeserved kindness because graciousness says some wonderful
things about not only the flesh that the Word became; but also about the
Father from whom the Word came.
Webster's defines "graciousness" as; kind, courteous, inclined to good will,
generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial,
affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.
"Cordial" stresses warmth and heartiness
"Affable" implies easy to approach, and readiness to respond pleasantly to
conversation or requests or proposals
"Genial" stresses cheerfulness and even joviality
"Sociable" suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others
"Generous" is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz:
magnanimous, kindly, and liberal in giving
"Charitable" means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz:
benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.
"Altruistic" means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others;
viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels
good to do so.
"Tactful" indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain
good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary
conflict.
Here's a couple of passages from the NWT where the Society's translation
committee had the academic decency to let charis/charito speak for
themselves instead of butting in to tell people what they think those words
ought to mean.
"Keep on teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, praises to
God, spiritual songs with graciousness" (Col 3:16)
"Let your utterance be always with graciousness." (Col 4:6)
NOTE: The claim that the only begotten son is somehow undeserving of
kindness is of course 110% false. Worthiness is in every fiber of Christ's
being. (Dan 7:13-14, Phil 2:8 11, Rev 5:1-14, Rev 19:11)
_
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You take things out of context.
1John 5:20 is saying the one who is true= the true God, Jesus wasnt called God there.
1John 5:13--speaking of the real Jesus--and there are stipulations for that to be a whole truth--Because these believe-Matt 7:22-23--but this is judgement. There is a whole bible that must be applied.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
It is perfectly clear--no division. God isnt divided, His word teaches the true followers would become one with God and Jesus-now, That is accomplished how Jesus and the Father are one= in purpose, living now to do The Fathers will over our own-Matt 7:21
No, not taking things out of context...
Isa_7:14 ¶ “Therefore the Lord [So 1QIsaa; MT reads Lord] himself will give you a sign. Watch! The virgin [So LXX; 1QIsaa MT read The young woman] is conceiving a child, and will give birth to a son, and his name will be called [So 1QIsaa; MT LXX read she will name him; MT alt. reading and you will name him] Immanuel. [The Heb. name Immanuel means God with us]
Isa_8:8 He will sweep on into Judah, overflowing as he passes through, like flood waters [DSS MT lack like flood waters] reaching up to a person’s neck. His outstretched wings will flow as wide as your land, O Immanuel!”
Isa_8:10 ¶ Take counsel together,
but it will all be for nothing;
go ahead and talk,
but [So 1QIsaa MT; 4QIsae LXX lack but] it will all be for nothing, [Lit. it won’t stand]
for God is with us.” [I.e. a word play on the name Immanuel; cf. 7:14, 8:8]
Mat_1:23 ¶ “See, a virgin will become pregnant
and give birth to a son,
and they will name him Immanuel,” [Isa 7:14]
which means, “God with us.”
Isa 9:6 ¶ For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name is [So 1QIsaa; MT 4QIsac read name will be] called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
Isa 9:7 ¶ Of the growth of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will rule [DSS MT lack He will rule] over his kingdom,
sitting on the throne of David,
to establish it and to uphold it [So 1QIsaa, referring to the throne; MT reads it, referring to the kingdom]
with justice and righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of the Heavenly Armies will accomplish this.
Luk 2:11 Because hayom, in Ir Dovid, has been born to you a Moshia (Go’el, Savior, Oisleizer), who is Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach HaAdon. [YESHAYAH 9:5(6)]
Luk 2:12 And this will be HaOt [The Sign] to you: you will find a small child, an infant, wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in an evus. [SHMUEL ALEF 2:34; MELACHIM BAIS 19:29; TEHILLIM 86:17; YESHAYAH 7:14]
Luk 2:13 And, suddenly, there was with the malach a multitude of the Tzivos Hashem, the Tzivos HaShomayim (Armies or Hosts of Heaven) praising Hashem, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Kavod to Hashem in the Highest; and on haaretz shalom among Bnei Adam kavvanah tovah (of good intention). [YESHAYAH 9:5-6; 52:7; 53:5; MICHOH 5:4-5]
OJB
Luk 1:43 And why has this happened to me that the Em Adoni should come to me?
Like I have said, you don't read the scriptures.
J.
Pierac, Jesus speaks of His glorious throne:
"Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne..." (Matthew 19:28)
Now, this is the "new world" Jesus is referring to, the new heaven and new earth ~ Revelation 21 ~ and in there, God says:
"Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God." (Revelation 21:3)
Do you somehow think there are two thrones?
Surely not... :) Or, even if you somehow do, do you reckon one to be far inferior to the other? Again, surely not... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Look... I answered his question..... So You tell me... AS Jesus is not sitting on that throne in Rev chapter 5... But His God is!!!
Now.... News to you.... Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of (PinSeeker) ,ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He (God who sits on the Throne in Rev chapter 5) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man (worthy to take the book from HIS God on that throne) whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Come on PinSeeker.... Believe Jesus...
Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.
Try harder... your looking foolish preaching against scripture!!!!
Paul
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