Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

[Raccoon1010]

Ok, this thread may sound archaic to some, but I'm not addressing the unsaved but the saved in this thread.

How serious an issue is it with God if a Christian wife doesn't submit to her husband? Does it bring judgment? Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about a wife needing to submit to her husband's every whim, or become a mere slave in the marriage without any mind of her own. I am simply talking about how when it comes to tough decisions, where headship is in question and someone has to have the final say, that the husband needs to be the one who makes the final determination, especially where making spiritual decisions are concerned.

I offer the following case in point as evidence for it. The impetus for this thread was something a friend recently sent me about a dream her husband had concerning her mother.

It went like this:

He was at my parents' house. He saw his brother in laws but didn't see my siblings. He saw women from a church we used to attend that my parents are still attending. They said, "It's sad to hear about the passing of your mother-in-law." And he agreed, it was sad. They said, "It's too bad she died of prostate cancer."

As she shared with me, prostrate cancer is a man's disease, possible also in women but very rare. I told her the dream likely meant her mother was in danger of coming under judgment from God (an illness of some kind) for "taking too much of a man's role in life," and that it was in some sense connected to the sin she might come under judgement for; that the imagery suggested "her personality is unyielding" in "insisting on having things her way rather than His," which in the eyes of God becomes a serious matter, especially when you are taking the spiritual welfare of others into your own hands unjustly.

She sent back that her mother did indeed take on the man's role in her marriage from early on, and not only began handling the finances but deciding on church matters, and that he simply let her.

My belief is that when we get badly out of line with His will and enter into direct disobedience to His word, judgment can come to correct things. Again, concerning the matter of submission in the home, I am not some wife-beating dictator who thinks women aren't as "intelligent" as men are, so that's not where my position is coming from here. She also mentioned how her mother handles the finances, and I said that sometimes the wife is just better with numbers and keeping records so there's no harm in that, but that it's when she assumes headship over the marriage that the problems will come. My wife handles most of our bills in our marriage and keeps all the files, but she is not the spiritual head of the household.

Thoughts are welcomed, but keep it courteous and respectful. I have great respect for women and as a rule tend to prefer their company over men. I don't think there is any definition in scripture about "superiority" outside the marriage relationship. I simply think that inside the marriage a man and woman are to reflect the relationship between Christ and His bride, and there the Lord is the One in charge.

God bless, and thank you for reading
Hidden In Him

The problem I see in marriage is one that affected my marriage somewhat. And that is the inlaws running the marriage. If the wive has still clung to her parents over her husband instead of her husband that can lead to problems.

And then there is immature young adult men that need leadership. Not everyone is a leader, some are followers. And so why should the wife follow a follower. Someone has to lead the family.

 

[Philip James]

And vice versa ....that scripture isn't just speaking to the husband's role of "saving" their spouse.

Indeed,
And honouring and respecting her head, even when he falls short, is the only way for her to do so...
In doing so she will be an example to him, and through her prayers for him, the Lord will convict and humble his heart..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Dropship]

..
if I had a wife and she could cook real good, I'd gladly submit to whatever she put in front of me and regard the kitchen as her personal Queendom..:)

What if she couldn't cook either?

But ALL women can cook, it's in their DNA..:)
“..she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household..” (Proverbs 31:14-15)

 

[Dropship]

Many women have to get jobs outside the home for financial reasons.

That's just their excuse..;)

 

[farouk]

For 17 years we endured this until he held a butcher knife to my side all night threatening to kill me

@L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d Well, one can hardly blame a woman for fleeing that kind of aggression.......

So sorry to learn this........

Reminds me of Isaiah 48/10: "I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction".

 

[Grailhunter]

Some women cannot pick a man. And I am not saying they do it on purpose or it is their fault but some cannot pick a man. Some say they did not see it coming or were deceived. Some do not know when it is time to leave. Some women do not have family to defend them. Some of these guys that beat their wives do not care that they have a family to defend them. Its like they have a death wish.

My own experience....my mom had someone to defend her and she left my step-dad several times and we would move her out, but she would go back to him.

So whose fault is that?...and she is not a lone....other women do that. Do some women feel that they must suffer due to the vows of marriage? Would God hold it against them if they left? I don't think so. Now this guy use to beat my mom severely and she would beg me not to do anything....and she would tell me that she loved him....I call myself an Ox and there is a reason for that and I think my step-dad knew what was going to happen to him. I systematically had every intent to break every bone in his body and I did not miss many. He never worked another day in his life.

The funny thing that he said to me was that it was not his fault. I could never understand the desire to take a fist to a woman. And if there are any women out there on the forum that are in abusive relationships....physical or verbal abuse....get out! Don't wait until you are seriously hurt and if there are children in the home it is very important to get out. Don't put friends and family in the position that I was in.

 

[Mink57]

Some women cannot pick a man. And I am not saying they do it on purpose or it is their fault but some cannot pick a man. Some say they did not see it coming or were deceived. Some do not know when it is time to leave. Some women do not have family to defend them. Some of these guys that beat their wives do not care that they have a family to defend them. Its like they have a death wish.

My own experience....my mom had someone to defend her and she left my step-dad several times and we would move her out, but she would go back to him.

So whose fault is that?...and she is not a lone....other women do that. Do some women feel that they must suffer due to the vows of marriage? Would God hold it against them if they left? I don't think so. Now this guy use to beat my mom severely and she would beg me not to do anything....and she would tell me that she loved him....I call myself an Ox and there is a reason for that and I think my step-dad knew what was going to happen to him. I systematically had every intent to break every bone in his body and I did not miss many. He never worked another day in his life.

The funny thing that he said to me was that it was not his fault. I could never understand the desire to take a fist to a woman. And if there are any women out there on the forum that are in abusive relationships....physical or verbal abuse....get out! Don't wait until you are seriously hurt and if there are children in the home it is very important to get out. Don't put friends and family in the position that I was in.

That's quite an ordeal, GH. No one should have to go through that.

As to what's bolded, yes...some women DO in fact believe that they must uphold their vows, no matter what. Several times in the bible, it warns us about keeping our vows to God. Although, I tend to agree with you. I don't believe that God would hold it against them if they left.

 

[Grailhunter]

That's quite an ordeal, GH. No one should have to go through that.

As to what's bolded, yes...some women DO in fact believe that they must uphold their vows, no matter what. Several times in the bible, it warns us about keeping our vows to God. Although, I tend to agree with you. I don't believe that God would hold it against them if they left.

I was pretty young and people that young should not have to go through that. That is why I said that these women need to think of the people that love them....Just get out.

 

[Pearl]

But ALL women can cook, it's in their DNA..:)
“..she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household..” (Proverbs 31:14-15)

That was a very sexist remark - I hope it was said with tongue firmly in cheek otherwise it is sexist. All women can't cook any more than all men automatically because they are male can do DIY or gardening or fixing cars.

 

[Dropship]

But ALL women can cook, it's in their DNA..:)
“..she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household..” (Proverbs 31:14-15)

That was a very sexist remark - I hope it was said with tongue firmly in cheek otherwise it is sexist. All women can't cook any more than all men automatically because they are male can do DIY or gardening or fixing cars.

Even the Bible says a woman's place is in the home..:)-
Nothing wrong if she wants to go out to work of course, but she should at least wait til her kids are grown up..:)-
Proverbs 31-
A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
..She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family..
She watches over the affairs of her household..
Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
“Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”

 

[L.A.M.B.]

ABSOLUTELY.
In ALL things the so called " churches" are destroying the faith as much as the world by lack of teaching.
We as believers have accepted and ignored our own principles to stand against ungodly politicians, corrupt clergy, unlawful law enforcement agencies, accepting the corrupt garbage displayed on tv and the net. I get more sexual junk in spam than all the rest of my email.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Yes.


I was thinking about this the other day, and don't laugh. But let me show you what a man has to be ready for (and many aren't). I'm a fan of women's soccer, and there have been a number of women on the US team that I have admired over the years. One of them still active is Alex Morgan. I was thinking what it must be like for her husband to lead a woman like that. She's a multi-millionaire in her own right, famous, very good looking, smart and a beast of a woman.

I can't see too many men being able to put their foot down with a woman like that, but that is what a man must be prepared to do going into a marriage or he would never be able to lead. And I think most women - even the strongest of them - secretly want a man who will stand up to them. But the point is that women are much more empowered now, so it takes a man being even stronger than ever before. Men more than ever need to count the cost of potentially losing their love by standing their ground going in, and even those who don't lean towards effeminacy may nevertheless not be up to the task of risking ending their potential marriage in today's society unless they are trained to act like men when the tough gets going. Many are too easily swayed by their desires not to. And I have to confess when I was young enough to even have a chance been in the ballpark for such women, I would have had a hard time not getting wrapped around their finger as well.

Sorry, but if it's a chat then that's full discloser, Lol, and relevant to the current discussion I think.

IMO I wanted a strong leader for myself and my children. One that I trusted with my life.

I was made stronger by the circumstances I went through but it gets very tiring having to shoulder all the load.

I wanted someone I could communicate with as equals with respect and love. To feel protected would have been the greatest honour when I was a younger woman. Not that I wouldn't have a voice but that I would be heard.

Those days are now passed and I simply lean on the Lord, it wasn't in my blessings to have a companion that we could walk and grow old together.

 

[Pearl]

Even the Bible says a woman's place is in the home..:)-
Nothing wrong if she wants to go out to work of course, but she should at least wait til her kids are grown up..:)-
Proverbs 31-
A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
..She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family..
She watches over the affairs of her household..
Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
“Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”

@Dropship - You seems to have a misogynist attitude. are you married?

After over 50 years together my husband praises me and has full confidence in me, I bring him good not harm, I am of noble character and watch over the affairs of my household. I don't get up while it still dark anymore because we are both retired. And i still provide food for him but I am not a great cook and my place was in the workplace as well as the home because I contributed to the household finances. Now I have my own personal bank account. I am glad my husband is as he is and has allowed me to be me not like some men who want to own their wives and make every decision without consultation with their equal partners.

 

[Naomanos]

It’s one thing to share the responsibility if it is mutually agreed on

This will be my fiance and me.

 

[Dropship]

@Dropship - You seems to have a misogynist attitude. are you married?

No I've never been married, had a few narrow scrapes over the years but managed to talk my way out of it because I could see we weren't suited, and only this week I ditched a woman who I'd been chatting with in a dating site because she started nagging..:)
I LURV sensible warm-hearted women, and have said before that it's great that their are women clergy around like these Protestant gals..:)-




But for sexism and misogyny take a look at the Catholic church, they don't seem to like girls..;)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Women cant be clergy, just saying.

 

[Dropship]

Women cant be clergy, just saying.

Did Jesus say so?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Did Jesus say so?

Yes.

Paul said:

“…the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37)

Paul wrote this commandment of the Lord:

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.” (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do unto others. That's ALL you need to know. It's the Law and the Prophets. And yes, husbands and wives are included in that.

If you want to "make the decisions" or "have the final word", are you doing unto your wife, what you would want HER to do unto you?

Ok, sorry about the wait. Had a birthday yesterday, and it was a big "to do" this time.

My response here is that this is an excellent point, and in reality they actually did apply the second greatest commandment in developing early church doctrine to questions like relationships, including the marriage relationship.

First let me show you on how they taught masters and slaves to conduct themselves towards one another. The following is from later in the same passage in Ephesians:

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:5-9)

Now if you'll notice, what he was doing here was applying the golden rule specifically to the slave/master relationship, where it was understood going in that one was subordinate to the other. To the slave, doing unto others as one would have them do unto you meant being the best servant to them that they could, even serving unto them as if they were serving unto the Lord Himself. To the master, it involved not "lording it over them" so to speak but treating them with kindness and respect, because they too had a Master over them to whom they would be without excuse if they treated others as inferiors in this life.

Now to what he said about Husbands and wives. First the wives:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Same principle here. This was written from the perspective that the wife was subordinate to her husband in the marriage relationship, so he again applied the principle that fulfillment of the second greatest commandment for her was to submit to him even as unto the Lord, meaning to the very best of her ability. Then he applied the same principle to the husbands:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, [h]of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Much could be said here because I don't think most husbands focus on teaching their wives, which takes up the dominant portion of his teaching here. But the summation of his teaching to husbands was again, "let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself." This was simply a shortened version of the golden rule again. As the one in charge of the relationship, he needed to make sure he didn't take advantage of her, but love her as he would himself. But for the wife, there was again a reminder to reverence her husband for he was charged with leading the marriage. So Yes. What you were saying is true. Do unto others is in one sense "all one needs to know," but that is provided that you understand the dynamics of the relationship being describing. Otherwise responses could be inappropriate to the particular relationship being addressed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Second guessing, Hidden is flawed in its nature :).....and prompts to qualify blanket statements are not stupid or petty although they might appear that way to folk who hadn't considered that their statements are so broad one could fit a barn into them.

Ok, point taken then, LoL. Just keep in mind, if I had to stipulate the nuances of every single point I ever made, you'd either still be reading the OP at this moment or most likely have moved on instead. I'm not wild on reading a novel when I'm just looking for a little online interaction.

But I'll work on taking it more as a "Devil's advocate" thing next time. By the way, why are you always taking his side? Lol.