Carnal Hypocrisy of Sabbath Commanders

[quietthinker]

Simple truth is sir, in every government new laws come into force as needed, and some are removed off the books as no longer needed. Jehovah's Kingdom is no exception, however it is far more consistent in it's laws that any government formed by man.

'removed from the books'....hmmmm. Is the knowledge of sin a reality of something 'removed from the books'?

 

[Robert Gwin]

You asked @Phoneman777 the same question. I'm curious. Why do you think it so difficult to obey, that you should be so relieved you are no longer obliged to do so ( wrongly I believe).

That is an open question Brake, do you obey the Sabbath sir? Why is it difficult to obey?:
(Numbers 15:32-36) . . .While the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man collecting pieces of wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him collecting wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. 34 They committed him into custody because it had not been specified what should be done to him. 35 And Jehovah said to Moses: “The man should be put to death without fail, and the whole assembly should stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the whole assembly brought him outside the camp and stoned him so that he died, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

My point is, if you want to live the law, then are you willing to accept the punishment for the sin? You do understand you would be executed by now correct?

 

[Brakelite]

That is an open question Brake, do you obey the Sabbath sir? Why is it difficult to obey?:
(Numbers 15:32-36) . . .While the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man collecting pieces of wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him collecting wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. 34 They committed him into custody because it had not been specified what should be done to him. 35 And Jehovah said to Moses: “The man should be put to death without fail, and the whole assembly should stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the whole assembly brought him outside the camp and stoned him so that he died, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

My point is, if you want to live the law, then are you willing to accept the punishment for the sin? You do understand you would be executed by now correct?

But isn't the wages of all sin, death?
And please explain what you mean by...My point is, if you want to live the law. Didn't Solomon say that obeying Good Commandments is the whole duty of man? Didn't Jesus say, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments? Didn't He also say, if ye love Me, keep my commandments? I'm not sure why you would suggest, if indeed this is what you are suggesting, that a Christian would live in disobedience to God's Commandments.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Coveting is the same as lust. You don't need to act on it in order to be found guilty before a holy God. Why do you obey those Commandments?

I personally do not believe anyone can control their mind, but as always I can only speak for myself. I am bombarded often by immoral desires, my thorn in the flesh so to speak. We have choices sir, and we can give in and actually commit sin, or we can take the way out that Jehovah provides, and most of the time that is simply walking away.

Do I think I am an enemy of God because of not being able to control my mind, or do I think I am abnormal because of it? No! The Bible was written for us and our problems Rom 15:4. I am not a spirit begotten Christian as was the apostle Paul, but his example can give us comfort as we know he was personally selected by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations Brake. Take note of his words sir: (Romans 7:21-25) 21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.

Interestingly we are a bit conflicting in our teachings, our primary teaching is to dismiss immoral thoughts instantly, but a brother gave a talk from the platform a few yrs back said to play the fantasy to the end, which I thought made perfect sense. Contemplate the outcome to the full, and look at David's example of the hardships he had to endure because of his immorality. Those are things that although we may not be able to whip in our mind, we can apply to not commit the actual sin.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Unless we're willing to recognize the verses which make a Biblical distinction - not a mere subjective distinction, but verses which make a Biblical distinction - between the Law God wrote and the one Moses wrote, we'll never come to a proper conclusion.

We'll assume NT verses which say the Law Moses wrote is nailed to the Cross/abolished/blotted out/a shadow of heavenly things/bondage/carnal, against us, etc., etc., etc....also apply to the Ten Commandments which Scripture says are forever not nailed to the Cross/established by us not abolished and blotted out/liberty not bondage/holy not carnal/contain blessing and promise not and are not against us, etc, etc, etc.

These verses are undeniable, untwistable, hopelessly relevant, and impossible to harmonize with an antinomianist position. How can anyone be antinomianist when such verses clearly teach the eternal nature of what God wrote with His own finger in stone?

Sorry Pman, I fail to get your point sir, might you please rephrase?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Funny, I have the same question for those who argue they can't keep the Ten Commandments: are you willing to accept the consequences? Claiming inability to keep them or refusing to keep them results in the same thing according to James: "thou art become a transgressor of the law". Revelation 22 plainly says only those who do His commandments have a right to the Tree of Life, while those who say they're unable or unwilling to do them will go to hell.

BTW, keeping the Sabbath is easy peasy, lemon squeezy :)

Now sir, what hours of the week do you keep the Sabbath?

 

[Robert Gwin]

There are four irrefutable reasons why Paul here is speaking of the yearly "sabbath" ceremonial Feast days of the ceremonial Mosaic Law here, not the weekly Sabbath of the Ten Commandments.
Grace is not a license to sin - the Christian is never free from his "reasonable service" obligation to keep God's law to not steal, lie, worship idols, break the Sabbath.
Again, there are four irrefutable reasons for why this passage refers to the Mosaic Law, not the Ten Commandments. For instance, the Feast Days "sabbaths" were indeed "shadows of things to come" which pointed to the coming Messiah: Passover lamb, Unleavened Bread, First fruits, etc. However, the weekly Sabbath of the fourth commandment wasn't a shadow of anything future, it was made as a memorial to the past, according to Genesis 2:1-3 KJV and not among those things nailed to the Cross - we are to keep it now and for all eternity, says Isaiah.

Also, where Paul says it was "against us" can be shown to not refer to the weekly Sabbath, the entire list of Paul's things "nailed to the Cross" can be shown to only refer to what Moses wrote, not what God wrote in the Ten Commandments.

We are discussing this in another thread Pman.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yet you contradict the way you interpret the above by your personal testimony that you obey the commandments regarding stealing, adultery, coveting etc. Are the Ten Commandments nailed to the cross our not? If not, what is the 4th Commandment the exception?

I am sorry Brake, I cannot state it any plainer sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I see you thrash around in the rules you choose but dismiss the conscience of others who are persuaded differently.

We teach the Bible Thinkr, and as a Thinker I would think you would logically examine evidence by the very nature of your title. The fact is that Jesus sent disciples, to make disciples and their assignment is to teach others to observe all the things he commanded. Since there are thousands of faiths that claim to be Christian, yet only one that God accepts, then yes most who believe they are Christians are in fact not. So, when the few who recognize truth hear the words of Jesus, then they will recognize the ring of truth in the words of his disciples sir, and will accept those words as being truth from the disciple who stated them.

We live what we teach sir, as stated at Isa 2:3. We go to the house of the God of Jacob, receive instruction in God's ways, and we walk in His paths. Clearly if our teachings do not parallel the teachings of one whose teachings are different, at least one of us is in error. It is imperative to know God and obey the Law of the Christ to be saved upon Jesus' return Thinkr 2 Thes 1:6-9, so we keep placing those seeds of truth with the hopes of reaching the fine soil. God's laws to Christians are not hard to know, and are recorded for us in the Bible, otherwise He would be unjust for requiring something that He has not told us to do. Make sense sir?

 

[Robert Gwin]

'removed from the books'....hmmmm. Is the knowledge of sin a reality of something 'removed from the books'?

Speaking Bible law sir, when was the last time you went to Jerusalem to observe the Passover, or go to the temple to offer a sacrifice? Yes sir, those laws are "off the books" or in other words, no longer a law.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry Pman, I fail to get your point sir, might you please rephrase?

Sure: the Mosaic Law began at Sinai and was nailed to the Cross but the Ten Commandments which go back to the beginning and "stand fast forever and ever" remain.

Those who obey them demonstrate by outward action that Jesus sits inwardly enthroned on their heart, while those who know they ought to but refuse demonstrate by outward action Jesus is no where near the inward throne of their heart, no matter how high they wave their hands in church.

 

[Phoneman777]

Now sir, what hours of the week do you keep the Sabbath?

A Biblical day runs from sunset to sunset, so the 7th day Sabbath is kept betwen sunset Friday to sunset Saturday.

Sunday is nuthin but the first work day of the week, according to the commandment.

 

[Cassandra]

Well, everybody, if the Sabbath is no longer in force, but we're still keeping it, and it's not a sin for us not to, we won't have any consequences, now, would we?

 

[quietthinker]

Speaking Bible law sir, when was the last time you went to Jerusalem to observe the Passover, or go to the temple to offer a sacrifice? Yes sir, those laws are "off the books" or in other words, no longer a law.

Yet you are applying 'off the books' to the Decalogue!
The convenience of cognitive dissonance only fools the foolish!

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Speaking Bible law sir, when was the last time you went to Jerusalem to observe the Passover, or go to the temple to offer a sacrifice? Yes sir, those laws are "off the books" or in other words, no longer a law.

You claim that the Passover is "off the books", but Paul mentions that the Corinthians observed it. More to the point, Eusebius recorded the fact that Polycarp observed the Passover with the apostle John and other 1st century apostles:

"Neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it, as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him." - Eusebius 1890, Book V Chapter 24

The facts concerning the history of the true Church of God are simply not on the side of people who foolishly argue that all of the Lev. 23 festivals are not a Christian obligation. Your attempt at bringing Jerusalem up is an extremely poor deflection tactic for at least 4 reasons:

1. The Passover was observed centuries before David ever conquered Jerusalem. As the Biblical record in Exodus-Joshua shows, the Israelites kept the Passover in Egypt, in the Sinai desert, and before their conquest of Canaan, at Gilgal.

2. Polycarp was based in Smyrna at the time of the Quartodeciman Controversy, which was long after Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed by the Romans in the 1st century A.D.

3. There is literally no passage that shows God, a prophet, or an apostle saying the Passover was only supposed to be observed in Jerusalem. When Paul addressed the Corinthians about observing the Passover, it was clearly within the context of them attending a service that was held in their local area.

4. The Passover was only observed in Jerusalem after David conquered it, and for as long as the physical priesthood was necessary. Since Jesus replaced the physical priesthood as a High Priest and Mediator that continually serves in the heavenly temple under the current covenant, there is no need for anyone to make an arduous trek to Jerusalem.

 

[Robert Gwin]

But isn't the wages of all sin, death?
And please explain what you mean by...My point is, if you want to live the law. Didn't Solomon say that obeying Good Commandments is the whole duty of man? Didn't Jesus say, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments? Didn't He also say, if ye love Me, keep my commandments? I'm not sure why you would suggest, if indeed this is what you are suggesting, that a Christian would live in disobedience to God's Commandments.

Great questions Brake
But isn't the wages of all sin, death?
Yes but inherited death sir. We all die because we first of all inherited it, but because we sin as well. Remember however it was appointed we die once, but after that another possibility of everlasting life. Minor sins we do now will not keep us from that, but serious sins like recorded for us at 1 Cor 6:9,10 can keep us from inheriting the Kingdom v11.

Didn't Solomon say that obeying Good Commandments is the whole duty of man? Didn't Jesus say, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments? Didn't He also say, if ye love Me, keep my commandments? I'm not sure why you would suggest, if indeed this is what you are suggesting, that a Christian would live in disobedience to God's Commandments.

I cannot for the life of me figure out where you came up with me not thinking you have to obey God's commandments, especially with the many times I have promoted that you have to obey the Law of the Christ, and that is how we show our love for God 1 Jn 5:3. Of course in order to obey them you have to know what they are, is that where the problem lies sir? God does provide them in the gospels and letters to the congregations.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Sure: the Mosaic Law began at Sinai and was nailed to the Cross but the Ten Commandments which go back to the beginning and "stand fast forever and ever" remain.

Those who obey them demonstrate by outward action that Jesus sits inwardly enthroned on their heart, while those who know they ought to but refuse demonstrate by outward action Jesus is no where near the inward throne of their heart, no matter how high they wave their hands in church.

Thanks Pman, I understand what you said now. I believe all the laws were given to Moses at the same time, but I believe the 10 Commandments were penned on stone tablets by the angel that gave Moses God's words.

 

[Robert Gwin]

A Biblical day runs from sunset to sunset, so the 7th day Sabbath is kept betwen sunset Friday to sunset Saturday.

Sunday is nuthin but the first work day of the week, according to the commandment.

I salute you sir, that is exactly correct. So keeping that in mind, are you even able to put a number to the number of times you have violated the Sabbath?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yet you are applying 'off the books' to the Decalogue!
The convenience of cognitive dissonance only fools the foolish!

I think I can rest my case on it Thinkr, as you got my point sir. Christians are under a new covenant, with a new set of laws to observe. Do you know what the assignment is for Christians?

 

[Robert Gwin]

You claim that the Passover is "off the books", but Paul mentions that the Corinthians observed it. More to the point, Eusebius recorded the fact that Polycarp observed the Passover with the apostle John and other 1st century apostles:



The facts concerning the history of the true Church of God are simply not on the side of people who foolishly argue that all of the Lev. 23 festivals are not a Christian obligation. Your attempt at bringing Jerusalem up is an extremely poor deflection tactic for at least 4 reasons:

1. The Passover was observed centuries before David ever conquered Jerusalem. As the Biblical record in Exodus-Joshua shows, the Israelites kept the Passover in Egypt, in the Sinai desert, and before their conquest of Canaan, at Gilgal.

2. Polycarp was based in Smyrna at the time of the Quartodeciman Controversy, which was long after Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed by the Romans in the 1st century A.D.

3. There is literally no passage that shows God, a prophet, or an apostle saying the Passover was only supposed to be observed in Jerusalem. When Paul addressed the Corinthians about observing the Passover, it was clearly within the context of them attending a service that was held in their local area.

4. The Passover was only observed in Jerusalem after David conquered it, and for as long as the physical priesthood was necessary. Since Jesus replaced the physical priesthood as a High Priest and Mediator that continually serves in the heavenly temple under the current covenant, there is no need for anyone to make an arduous trek to Jerusalem.

Actually sir, we Christians do observe the Passover annually every Nisan 14. It is a new Passover however which was instituted initially by Jesus on Nisan 14 of 33 CE and at his command we continue to do that in remembrance of him. Christ became our Passover as the account you mentioned recorded by Paul mentioned. 1 Cor 5:7 It is a worldwide celebration D.