This is why most believe that Jesus is a Man/Son and not God.

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face2face

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That is a simple answer as Jesus tells us below. Only God can reveal that to man. Then they can either accept it or reject it like the pharisees/Jewish and Roman leaders did who killed Him.

Matthew 16:13-17
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

The revelation of all truth comes from God alone - even the selection of the Disciples/Apostles was shown to Jesus by Him. Jesus could do nothing without the guidance of His Father. What Trinitarians want is the great revelation of verse 16 to be "you are the Messiah, God come down in Flesh" but thankfully the truth remains - those Christians satisfied in his Sonship can delight in the Christ, while others who make him a god languish in many hurtful lusts.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You need to recant of what you believe to be true, and read the scriptures to hopefully find out to what is truth re the deity of Christ Jesus, uncreated, never had a beginning, always is.
J.

You can disagree with me but I have found no scripture that shows Jesus is God or where Jesus says he's God. Revelation 1:14, Colossians 1:15 are scriptures that show the Only Begotten Son of God belonging to creation. Since he belongs to creation that means he had a beginning. The only true God who's name is YHWH is the only person who isn't part of creation who has no beginning.
 
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face2face

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So "which" Plain and Clear Scripture did we twist in post #175?

And, Then which of the:
500 Plain And Clear Passages The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!
did we twist?

GRACE And Peace...

Well, lets take number 1 on your list.

So "which" Plain and Clear Scripture did we twist in post #175?

JESUS IS The Visible Image of The Invisible God - Colossians 1:15;

Do you believe you will be in Jesus' likeness when you are glorified? 1 John 3:2, 2 Corinthians 3:18 and many more!

Grace, does that mean you will be Christ? Ánd does this mean you also will be a God?

Because Christ by his obedience was given this likeness doesn't automatically make him God. That equation is not in the Bible and its the twist you are making!

See the twist? If I wanted to read those verse literally I too could say I am a God for I will be in the Image of Christ and if I am in the Image of Christ then I must be part of the Godhead also. The notions you force on the Word of God bring you to a wrong understanding.
 
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GRACE ambassador

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Well, lets take number 1 on your list.



Do you believe you will be in Jesus' likeness when you are glorified? 1 John 3:2, 2 Corinthians 3:18 and many more!

Grace, does that mean you will be Christ? Ánd does this mean you also will be a God?

Because Christ by his obedience was given this likeness doesn't automatically make him God. That equation is not in the Bible and its the twist you are making!

See the twist? If I wanted to read those verse literally I too could say I am a God for I will be in the Image of Christ and if I am in the Image of Christ then I must be part of the Godhead also. The notions you force on the Word of God bring you to a wrong understanding.
Thanks, only 499 more twisted verses to go, eh?
 

XFire

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Nope, plenty of scriptural evidences to prove the Triune Godhead, and Godhead is in the scriptures.
Agree to disagree and do what we are supposed to do.
J.
I believe the trinity requires that salvation is a 2 part ladder rung. You just can't believe that in Jesus there is salvation but you have to believe who the religious powers tell you he is!!!!
God is not a god of confusion. The word are clear. You have to make Jesus a liar to prove the trinity
If you can't even believe Jesus' own words then you have no anchor for truth.
 
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face2face

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Thanks, only 499 more twisted verses to go, eh?

No. 2

2. JESUS Was Conceived By God - Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:20. Since Mary was
His earthly mother, That Makes JESUS Fully Human; since God Was His Physical Father, and since JESUS did not have an earthly father, That Makes JESUS Fully God. He Was Fully Man And Fully God. The Great GodMan.

Where in Luke 1:35 are we told Messiah is a GodMan? or that he will be made fully man and fully God? Again, your faith is in the cunning logic of philosophers. In nature what does the Scripture say about the Christ?

Answer: Made in the seed of David after the flesh and experienced all its propensities to sin but resisted unto death. Read Hebrews 2; Romans 8 etc.
 
J

Johann

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The revelation of all truth comes from God alone - even the selection of the Disciples/Apostles was shown to Jesus by Him. Jesus could do nothing without the guidance of His Father. What Trinitarians want is the great revelation of verse 16 to be "you are the Messiah, God come down in Flesh" but thankfully the truth remains - those Christians satisfied in his Sonship can delight in the Christ, while others who make him a god languish in many hurtful lusts.
You are not here to observe and learn but to impose your heteros doctrines upon others, you are in need of correction.
If Christ is not God, then who is the Holy Spirit?
J.
 
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face2face

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You are not here to observe and learn but to impose your heteros doctrines upon others, you are in need of correction.
If Christ is not God, then who is the Holy Spirit?
J.

Luke 1:35

The Power of the Most High God i.e Almighty God, Yahweh, ʾel ʿelyon, El, ʾel ʿolam, ʾel shadday and many more! He is God alone and besides Him, there is no other, no, not even the Christ would claim to be God though he represents Him perfectly. The Lord sits at His Right Hand for evermore!

If you want to start a discussion about the Holy Spirit, feel free its a wonderful subject.
 
J

Johann

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You are not here to observe and learn but to impose your heteros doctrines upon others, you are in need of correction.
If Christ is not God, then who is the Holy Spirit?
J.
Those who deny the deity of Christ present Him as just a man or as one of many mystic masters.
Many believe that each human being is a son of God in the same way Jesus is.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

J.
 

face2face

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Those who deny the deity of Christ present Him as just a man or as one of many mystic masters.
Many believe that each human being is a son of God in the same way Jesus is.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Like us...not his own Glory... for Jesus had none of his own! 1 Peter 1:21

I keep reminding you Johann - Christ is the firstborn from the dead!!!

Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

J.

Unlike Yahweh, Who has no beginning or end, the Lord Jesus Christ did but now lives for evermore. Revelation 1:18

That's the point!
 
J

Johann

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Like us...not his own Glory... for Jesus had none of his own! 1 Peter 1:21
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:1 Let not your levavot be troubled [14:27]. You have emunah (faith) in Hashem. Also in me have emunah (faith). [SHEMOT 14:21; TEHILLIM 4:5]
OJB



Ye believe in God, believe also in me: or, Believe in God, ye believe in me. But the disciples’ faith in Christ as Mediator, and God man, being yet weak, and their weakness being what our Saviour hath ordinarily blamed, not magnified, or commended, the best interpreters judge the sense which our translators give to be the best sense; and judge that our Saviour doth inculcate to them his Divine nature, and again offer himself to them as the proper object of their faith. You (saith he) own it for your duty to trust in God, as your Creator, and he that provideth for you: believe also in me, as God equal with my Father; and in me, as the Messiah, your Mediator and Redeemer: so as you have one to take care or all your concerns, both those of your bodies, and those of your souls also, so as you have nothing to be immoderately and excessively, or distrustfully, troubled for; therefore let not your hearts be troubled; only, without care or distrust, commit yourselves to me.
Poole

Why did Christ Jesus received worship?
Since only God can and should be eulogized?

Secondly, you are confused re Jesus earthly ministry IN the flesh as God clothed in a body prepared for Him and became something He was not before, a man.


THE TRANSFIGURATION
(Mat_17:1-8. Mar_9:2-8. Luk_9:28-36).



It has been said that "to most ordinary men the Transfiguration seemed to promise much and yield little"; but, by a careful comparison of Scripture with Scripture we shall find some of what it promises so much, and receive much of what it seems to yield so little.
1. The event is recorded in three out of the four Gospels. It is therefore of great importance.
2. It is dated in all three accounts, and is therefore of particular importance. It took place " about six days" (exclusive reckoning), or " about eight days" (Luk_9:28, inclusive reckoning) from the Lord’s prediction.
3. The event from which it is dated, in all three Gospels, is the Lord’s first mention of His sufferings, and rejection (Mat_16:21. Mar_8:31. Luk_9:22). It must therefore have some close connexion with this (*1) .
4. What this connection is may be seen from the fact that, in the O.T., while the "glory" is often mentioned without the "sufferings" (Isa. 11; 32; 35; 40; 60, &c.), the "sufferings" are never mentioned apart from the "glory". See Ap. 71.
5. It is so here; for in each account the Lord goes on to mention His future coming "in the glory of His Father"; and this is followed by an exhibition of that "glory", and a typical foreshadowing of that "coming" (2Pe_1:16-18) on "the holy mount".
6. The Transfiguration took place "as He prayed"; and there are only two subjects recorded concerning which He prayed : the sufferings (Mat_26:39; Mat_26:42; Mat_26:44) and the glory (Joh_17:1; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24).
7. It was on "the holy mount" that he "received from God the Father honour and glory " ( time kai doxa , 2Pe_1:17), and was crowned with glory and honour , for the suffering of death" (Gr. doxa kai time , Heb_2:9). In these passages the reference is to Exo_28:2, where the High Priest at his consecration for the office of high priest was clothed with garments, specially made under Divine direction, and these were "for glory and for beauty". In the Greek of the Sept. we have the same two words ( time kai doxa ).
8. These garments were made by those who were "wise hearted", whom Jehovah said He had "filled with the spirit of wisdom that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him , that he may minister unto Me in the priest’s office " (Exo_28:3). These latter words are repeated in v .4, in order to emphasize the Divine object. This tells us assuredly that the Transfiguration was the consecration of our Lord for His special office of High Priest and for His priestly work, of which Aaron was the type.
9. This is confirmed by what appears to be the special Divine formula of consecration : (1) In Mat_3:17, &c. "This is My beloved Son", at His Baptism, for His office of Prophet (at the commencement of His Ministry); (2) In Mat_17:5 "This is My beloved Son" at His Transfiguration, for His office of High Priest (Heb_5:5-10): and (3) at His Resurrection, "Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee", i.e. brought Thee to birth. Gr. gegenneka , as in Act_13:33 and Psa_2:7 (Sept.).
10. At His resurrection His sufferings were over; and nothing further was needed before He should "enter into His glory" according to Luk_24:26. there was nothing to hinder that glory which He had then "received" from being "beheld" by those whom He had loved (Joh_17:24). The sufferings had first to be accomplished; but, this having been done, the glory of His kingdom and His glorious reign would have followed the proclamation of that kingdom by Peter in Act_3:18-26. It was, as we know, rejected : in Jerusalem, the capital of the land (Act_6:9-15; Act_7:1-60), and afterward in Rome, the capital of the dispersion (Act_28:17-28). Hence, He must come again, and when He again bringeth the First-begotten into the world, the Father will say "Thou art My Son", and "let all the angels of God worship Him" (Heb_1:5-6).


(*1) This is doubtless the reason why it finds no place in John’s Gospel; for, like the Temptation, and the Agony, it is not needed in that Gospel for the presentation of the Lord Jesus as God.
Bullinger

You should pray to God through Christ Jesus and TO Jesus, you should honor God and Jesus since Jesus is your High Priest, Prophet and King, you know ABOUT Christ at the cross, but not the Christ AFTER His resurrection.

And so it is with most here, not all, most.

J.
 

face2face

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Where is/haya Jesus BEFORE His incarnation?
J.

What incarnation?

Do you have a book, chapter or even a verse to provide for your incarnation?

Acts 17:31 because God has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Do you believe Jesus is a man Johann? That even well after his ascension he is still considered a man? A unique and special man but none the less, a man!
 
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J

Johann

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The Power of the Most High God i.e Almighty God, Yahweh, ʾel ʿelyon, El, ʾel ʿolam, ʾel shadday and many more! He is God alone and besides Him, there is no other, no, not even the Christ would claim to be God though he represents Him perfectly. The Lord sits at His Right Hand for evermore!
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


In the beginning] The meaning must depend on the context. In Gen_1:1 it is an act done ‘in the beginning;’ here it is a Being existing ‘in the beginning,’ and therefore prior to all beginning. That was the first moment of time; this is eternity, transcending time. Thus we have an intimation that the later dispensation is the confirmation and infinite extension of the first. ‘In the beginning’ here equals ‘before the world was,’ Joh_17:5. Compare Joh_17:24; Eph_1:4; and contrast ‘the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ,’ Mar_1:1, which is the historical beginning of the public ministry of the Messiah (Joh_6:64): ‘the beginning’ here is prior to all history. To interpret ‘Beginning’ of God as the Origin of all things is not correct, as the context shews.
was] Not ‘came into existence,’ but was already in existence before the creation of the world. The generation of the Word or Son of God is thus thrown back into eternity. Thus S. Paul calls Him (Col_1:15) ‘the firstborn of every creature,’ or (more accurately translated) ‘begotten before all creation,’ like ‘begotten before all worlds’ in the Nicene creed. Comp. Heb_1:8; Heb_7:3; Rev_1:8. On these passages is based the doctrine of the Eternal Generation of the Son: see Articles of Religion, i. and ii. The Arians maintained that there was a period when the Son was not: S. John says distinctly that the Son or Word was existing before time began, i.e. from all eternity.
the Word] As early as the second century Sermo and Verbum were rival translations of the Greek term Logos = Word. Tertullian (fl. a.d. 195–210) gives us both, but seems himself to prefer Ratio. Sermo first became unusual, and finally was disallowed in the Latin Church. The Latin versions all adopted Verbum, and from it comes our translation, ‘the Word.’
None of these translations are at all adequate: but neither Latin nor any modern language supplies anything really satisfactory. Verbum and ‘the Word’ do not give the whole of even one of the two sides of Logos: the other side, which Tertullian tried to express by Ratio, is not touched at all; for ὁ λόγος means not only ‘the spoken word,’ but ‘the thought’ expressed by the spoken word; it is the spoken word as expressive of thought. It is not found in the N.T. in the sense of ‘reason.’
The expression Logos is a remarkable one; all the more so, because S. John assumes that his readers will at once understand it. This shews that his Gospel was written in the first instance for his own disciples, who would be familiar with his teaching and phraseology.
Whence did S. John derive the expression, Logos? It has its origin in the Targums, or paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures, in use in Palestine, rather than in the mixture of Jewish and Greek philosophy prevalent at Alexandria and Ephesus, as is very commonly asserted.
(1). In the Old Testament we find the Word or Wisdom of God personified, generally as an instrument for executing the Divine Will. We have a faint trace of it in the ‘God said’ of Gen_1:3; Gen_1:6; Gen_1:9; Gen_1:11; Gen_1:14, &c. The personification of the Word of God begins to appear in the Psa_33:6; Psa_107:20; Psa_119:89; Psa_147:15. In Proverbs 8, 9 the Wisdom of God is personified in very striking terms. This Wisdom is manifested in the power and mighty works of God; that God is love is a revelation yet to come. (2) In the Apocrypha the personification is more complete than in O.T. In Ecclesiasticus (c. b. c. 150–100) Sir_1:1-20, Sir_24:1-22, and in the Book of Wisdom (c. b. c. 100) Wis_6:22 to Wis_9:18 we have Wisdom strongly personified. In Wis_18:15 the ‘Almighty Word’ of God appears as an agent of vengeance. (3) In the Targums, or Aramaic paraphrases of O.T., the development is carried still further. These, though not yet written down, were in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time; and they were strongly influenced by the growing tendency to separate the Godhead from immediate contact with the material world. Where Scripture speaks of a direct communication from God to man, the Targums substituted the Memra, or ‘Word of God.’ Thus in Gen_3:8-9, instead of ‘they heard the voice of the Lord God,’ the Targums have ‘they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God;’ and instead of ‘God called unto Adam,’ they put ‘the Word of the Lord called unto Adam,’ and so on. ‘The Word of the Lord’ is said to occur 150 times in a single Targum of the Pentateuch. In the theosophy of the Alexandrine Jews, which was a compound of theology with philosophy and mysticism, we seem to come nearer to a strictly personal view of the Divine Word or Wisdom, but really move further away from it. Philo, the leading representative of this religious speculation (fl. a.d. 40–50), admitted into his philosophy very various, and not always harmonious elements. Consequently his conception of the Logos is not fixed or clear. On the whole his Logos means some intermediate agency, by means of which God created material things and communicated with them. But whether this Logos is one Being or more, whether it is personal or not, we cannot be sure; and perhaps Philo himself was undecided. Certainly his Logos is very different from that of S. John; for it is scarcely a Person, and it is not the Messiah. And when we note that of the two meanings of Λόγος, Philo dwells most on the side which is less prominent, while the Targums insist on that which is more prominent in the teaching of S. John, we cannot doubt the source of his language. The Logos of Philo is preeminently the Divine Reason. The Memra of the Targums is rather the Divine Word; i.e. the Will of God manifested in personal action; and this rather than a philosophical abstraction of the Divine Intelligence is the starting point of S. John’s expression.
To sum up:—the personification of the Divine Word in O.T. is poetical, in Philo metaphysical, in S. John historical. The Apocrypha and Targums help to fill the chasm between O.T. and Philo; history itself fills the far greater chasm which separates all from S. John. Between Jewish poetry and Alexandrine speculation on the one hand, and the Fourth Gospel on the other, lies the historical fact of the Incarnation of the Logos, the life of Jesus Christ.
The Logos of S. John, therefore, is not a mere attribute of God, but the Son of God, existing from all eternity, and manifested in space and time in the Person of Jesus Christ. In the Logos had been hidden from eternity all that God had to say to man; for the Logos was the living expression of the nature, purposes, and Will of God. (Comp. the impersonal designation of Christ in 1Jn_1:1.) Human thought had been searching in vain for some means of connecting the finite with the Infinite, of making God intelligible to man and leading man up to God. S. John knew that he possessed the key to this enigma. He therefore took the phrase which human reason had lighted on in its gropings, stripped it of its misleading associations, fixed it by identifying it with the Christ, and filled it with that fulness of meaning which he himself had derived from Christ’s own teaching.
with God] i.e. with the Father. ‘With’ = apud, or the French chez: it expresses the distinct Personality of the Logos. We might render ‘face to face with God,’ or ‘at home with God.’ So, ‘His sisters, are they not all with us?’ Mat_13:56; comp. Mar_6:3; Mar_9:19; Mar_14:49; 1Co_16:7; Gal_1:18; 1Th_3:4; Phm_1:13; 1Jn_1:2.
the Word was God] i.e. the Word partook of the Divine Nature, not was identical with the Divine Person. The verse may be thus paraphrased, ‘the Logos existed from all eternity, distinct from the Father, and equal to the Father.’ Comp. ‘neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance.’
John 1:1-18
Chap. Joh_1:1-18. The Prologue or Introduction
That the first eighteen verses are introductory is universally admitted: commentators are not so unanimous as to the main divisions of this introduction. A division into three nearly equal parts has much to commend it:
1. The Word in His own Nature (Joh_1:1-5).
2. His Revelation to men and rejection by them (Joh_1:6-13).
3. His Revelation of the Father (Joh_1:14-18).
Some throw the second and third part into one, thus:
2. The historical manifestation of the Word (Joh_1:6-18).
Others again divide into two parts thus:
1. The Word in His absolute eternal Being (Joh_1:1).
2. The Word in relation to Creation (Joh_1:2-18).
And there are other schemes besides these. In any scheme the student can scarcely fail to feel that the first verse is unique. Throughout the prologue the three great characteristics of this Gospel, simplicity, subtlety, and sublimity, are specially conspicuous; and the majesty of the first verse surpasses all. The Gospel of the Son of Thunder opens with a peal.
Cambridge.


Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
 

face2face

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Why did Christ Jesus received worship?
Since only God can and should be eulogized?

Are you suggesting God was not being worshiped through his beloved Son? Matthew 5:16
 

face2face

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Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


In the beginning] The meaning must depend on the context. In Gen_1:1 it is an act done ‘in the beginning;’ here it is a Being existing ‘in the beginning,’ and therefore prior to all beginning. That was the first moment of time; this is eternity, transcending time. Thus we have an intimation that the later dispensation is the confirmation and infinite extension of the first. ‘In the beginning’ here equals ‘before the world was,’ Joh_17:5. Compare Joh_17:24; Eph_1:4; and contrast ‘the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ,’ Mar_1:1, which is the historical beginning of the public ministry of the Messiah (Joh_6:64): ‘the beginning’ here is prior to all history. To interpret ‘Beginning’ of God as the Origin of all things is not correct, as the context shews.
was] Not ‘came into existence,’ but was already in existence before the creation of the world. The generation of the Word or Son of God is thus thrown back into eternity. Thus S. Paul calls Him (Col_1:15) ‘the firstborn of every creature,’ or (more accurately translated) ‘begotten before all creation,’ like ‘begotten before all worlds’ in the Nicene creed. Comp. Heb_1:8; Heb_7:3; Rev_1:8. On these passages is based the doctrine of the Eternal Generation of the Son: see Articles of Religion, i. and ii. The Arians maintained that there was a period when the Son was not: S. John says distinctly that the Son or Word was existing before time began, i.e. from all eternity.
the Word] As early as the second century Sermo and Verbum were rival translations of the Greek term Logos = Word. Tertullian (fl. a.d. 195–210) gives us both, but seems himself to prefer Ratio. Sermo first became unusual, and finally was disallowed in the Latin Church. The Latin versions all adopted Verbum, and from it comes our translation, ‘the Word.’
None of these translations are at all adequate: but neither Latin nor any modern language supplies anything really satisfactory. Verbum and ‘the Word’ do not give the whole of even one of the two sides of Logos: the other side, which Tertullian tried to express by Ratio, is not touched at all; for ὁ λόγος means not only ‘the spoken word,’ but ‘the thought’ expressed by the spoken word; it is the spoken word as expressive of thought. It is not found in the N.T. in the sense of ‘reason.’
The expression Logos is a remarkable one; all the more so, because S. John assumes that his readers will at once understand it. This shews that his Gospel was written in the first instance for his own disciples, who would be familiar with his teaching and phraseology.
Whence did S. John derive the expression, Logos? It has its origin in the Targums, or paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures, in use in Palestine, rather than in the mixture of Jewish and Greek philosophy prevalent at Alexandria and Ephesus, as is very commonly asserted.
(1). In the Old Testament we find the Word or Wisdom of God personified, generally as an instrument for executing the Divine Will. We have a faint trace of it in the ‘God said’ of Gen_1:3; Gen_1:6; Gen_1:9; Gen_1:11; Gen_1:14, &c. The personification of the Word of God begins to appear in the Psa_33:6; Psa_107:20; Psa_119:89; Psa_147:15. In Proverbs 8, 9 the Wisdom of God is personified in very striking terms. This Wisdom is manifested in the power and mighty works of God; that God is love is a revelation yet to come. (2) In the Apocrypha the personification is more complete than in O.T. In Ecclesiasticus (c. b. c. 150–100) Sir_1:1-20, Sir_24:1-22, and in the Book of Wisdom (c. b. c. 100) Wis_6:22 to Wis_9:18 we have Wisdom strongly personified. In Wis_18:15 the ‘Almighty Word’ of God appears as an agent of vengeance. (3) In the Targums, or Aramaic paraphrases of O.T., the development is carried still further. These, though not yet written down, were in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time; and they were strongly influenced by the growing tendency to separate the Godhead from immediate contact with the material world. Where Scripture speaks of a direct communication from God to man, the Targums substituted the Memra, or ‘Word of God.’ Thus in Gen_3:8-9, instead of ‘they heard the voice of the Lord God,’ the Targums have ‘they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God;’ and instead of ‘God called unto Adam,’ they put ‘the Word of the Lord called unto Adam,’ and so on. ‘The Word of the Lord’ is said to occur 150 times in a single Targum of the Pentateuch. In the theosophy of the Alexandrine Jews, which was a compound of theology with philosophy and mysticism, we seem to come nearer to a strictly personal view of the Divine Word or Wisdom, but really move further away from it. Philo, the leading representative of this religious speculation (fl. a.d. 40–50), admitted into his philosophy very various, and not always harmonious elements. Consequently his conception of the Logos is not fixed or clear. On the whole his Logos means some intermediate agency, by means of which God created material things and communicated with them. But whether this Logos is one Being or more, whether it is personal or not, we cannot be sure; and perhaps Philo himself was undecided. Certainly his Logos is very different from that of S. John; for it is scarcely a Person, and it is not the Messiah. And when we note that of the two meanings of Λόγος, Philo dwells most on the side which is less prominent, while the Targums insist on that which is more prominent in the teaching of S. John, we cannot doubt the source of his language. The Logos of Philo is preeminently the Divine Reason. The Memra of the Targums is rather the Divine Word; i.e. the Will of God manifested in personal action; and this rather than a philosophical abstraction of the Divine Intelligence is the starting point of S. John’s expression.
To sum up:—the personification of the Divine Word in O.T. is poetical, in Philo metaphysical, in S. John historical. The Apocrypha and Targums help to fill the chasm between O.T. and Philo; history itself fills the far greater chasm which separates all from S. John. Between Jewish poetry and Alexandrine speculation on the one hand, and the Fourth Gospel on the other, lies the historical fact of the Incarnation of the Logos, the life of Jesus Christ.
The Logos of S. John, therefore, is not a mere attribute of God, but the Son of God, existing from all eternity, and manifested in space and time in the Person of Jesus Christ. In the Logos had been hidden from eternity all that God had to say to man; for the Logos was the living expression of the nature, purposes, and Will of God. (Comp. the impersonal designation of Christ in 1Jn_1:1.) Human thought had been searching in vain for some means of connecting the finite with the Infinite, of making God intelligible to man and leading man up to God. S. John knew that he possessed the key to this enigma. He therefore took the phrase which human reason had lighted on in its gropings, stripped it of its misleading associations, fixed it by identifying it with the Christ, and filled it with that fulness of meaning which he himself had derived from Christ’s own teaching.
with God] i.e. with the Father. ‘With’ = apud, or the French chez: it expresses the distinct Personality of the Logos. We might render ‘face to face with God,’ or ‘at home with God.’ So, ‘His sisters, are they not all with us?’ Mat_13:56; comp. Mar_6:3; Mar_9:19; Mar_14:49; 1Co_16:7; Gal_1:18; 1Th_3:4; Phm_1:13; 1Jn_1:2.
the Word was God] i.e. the Word partook of the Divine Nature, not was identical with the Divine Person. The verse may be thus paraphrased, ‘the Logos existed from all eternity, distinct from the Father, and equal to the Father.’ Comp. ‘neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance.’
John 1:1-18
Chap. Joh_1:1-18. The Prologue or Introduction
That the first eighteen verses are introductory is universally admitted: commentators are not so unanimous as to the main divisions of this introduction. A division into three nearly equal parts has much to commend it:
1. The Word in His own Nature (Joh_1:1-5).
2. His Revelation to men and rejection by them (Joh_1:6-13).
3. His Revelation of the Father (Joh_1:14-18).
Some throw the second and third part into one, thus:
2. The historical manifestation of the Word (Joh_1:6-18).
Others again divide into two parts thus:
1. The Word in His absolute eternal Being (Joh_1:1).
2. The Word in relation to Creation (Joh_1:2-18).
And there are other schemes besides these. In any scheme the student can scarcely fail to feel that the first verse is unique. Throughout the prologue the three great characteristics of this Gospel, simplicity, subtlety, and sublimity, are specially conspicuous; and the majesty of the first verse surpasses all. The Gospel of the Son of Thunder opens with a peal.
Cambridge.


Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Content dumping wont work Johann. Start by saying I don't have any Scriptural references to support the doctrine of the incarnation.
 
J

Johann

Guest
What incarnation?

Do you have a book, chapter or even a verse to provide for your incarnation?

Acts 17:31 because God has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Do you believe Jesus is a man Johann? That even well after his ascension he is still considered a man? A unique and special man but none the less a man!

Are you denying the virgin birth of Mary?

Gal 4:4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 that he might redeem them which were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Jer 31:3 The LORD appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.


Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


Mat 2:3 And when Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born.
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, Art in no wise least among the princes of Judah: For out of thee shall come forth a governor, Which shall be shepherd of my people Israel.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod privily called the wise men, and learned of them carefully what time the star appeared.


1Jn 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son ( cross reference John 1:1) to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.


Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God in us, because that God hath sent His only begotten Son into the world, in order that we might live through Him


In the beginning. Greek. en (App-104.) arche. Occurs four times in the N.T. (Compare Gen_1:1). The context will always supply the dependent word (where it is not expressed). Here, and in Joh_1:2, supply "[of the aions = ages "]; for the Logos then "was", and the aims were prepared by Him (Heb_1:2; Heb_11:3). In Act_11:15 supply "[of our ministry" (Joh_2:4)]. In Php_4:15 supply "[the proclamation of] the Gospel". For the combination of arche, with other prepositions, see notes on Joh_6:64 ("ex arches"); on Joh_8:44 ("ap’ arches"); on Heb_1:10 ("kat’ arches").
was = was [already pre-existent]. Creation is not mentioned till Joh_1:3. "The Word had no beginning". See Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5. 1Jn_1:1. Eph_1:4. Pro_8:23. Psa_90:2. Compare Joh_8:58. Not the same "was "as in Joh_1:14.


the Word. Greek. Logos. As the spoken word reveals the invisible thought, so the Living Word reveals the invisible God. Compare Joh_1:18.
and. Note the Figure of speech Polysyndeton. App-6. with. Greek. pros. App-104. Implying personal presence and relation. Compare Joh_1:18.
God. With the Art. = the revealed God of the Bible. App-98.
the Word was God. This is correct. The Art. designates "the Word" as the subject. The order of the words has to do only with the emphasis, which is thus placed on the predicate, while "the Word "is the subject.
was God. Here "God "is without the Art., because it denotes the conception of God as Infinite, Eternal, Perfect, Almighty, &c. Contrast Joh_4:24.
Bullinger.

Friend, you cannot argue against truth as written in scriptures.

J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Content dumping wont work Johann. Start by saying I don't have any Scriptural references to support the doctrine of the incarnation.

Just gave it to you, but you cant see it since people are mostly too busy and in general too lazy to read and chew the cud.

J.