Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[PinSeeker]

it sounds like someone is conflating the new birth with the resurrection of the saints.

Well, it depends on which resurrection you're talking about. With regard to when we Christians are born of the Spirit, we are brought to life in the spirit after having been dead, so yes, that is the spiritual (first) resurrection. It's not "conflation" of two different things, it's the same thing described two different ways.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ChristisGod]

:)


I really don't know how you mean this. If you mean ~ as I have said ~ that we are all spiritually dead from birth until we are born again of the Spirit ~ which is another way of speaking of our spiritual resurrection in Christ ~ then yes. But the way you put it here is... well, kind of ridiculous, so I really don't know if that's what you mean or not. It seems not, since what you said immediately following this is, well, garbled, so say the least. Except for "(p)eople are born spiritually dead." That I agree with, as I have said many times.


Well, right. But that's not necessary for a resurrection to take place, if that's what you mean. Only having been dead, and then raised from the dead.


I do no such thing.


No, for a resurrection to occur, one has only to rise from the dead. This is the definition of 'resurrection.' We will be reunited with our physical bodies at Jesus's return. As will unbelievers; this resurrection is general... it is the second resurrection... and the Judgment immediately follows. So, regarding the physical resurrection, we will have been physically alive before, but this is not necessary for a resurrection to occur, but only that the physical body is raised from the dead. So it is also with our spiritual resurrection, the first resurrection, which occurs when we are born of the Spirit.


Yes, it is. It seems, Ronald, you're just being hard-headed. But, I realize that you're probably thinking the same of me. So be it.

Grace and peace to you.

Can you link Scripture that associates the new birth with "spiritual" resurrection ?

 

[PinSeeker]

Can you link Scripture that associates the new birth with "spiritual" resurrection ?

Sure (as if I haven't before... :) ):

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (new birth) ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up (resurrected us) with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2:4-6)​

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, (this is baptism by the Spirit) in which you were also raised with Him (resurrected with Him) through faith in the powerful working of God (by the Spirit in giving us new birth), Who raised Him (resurrected Him) from the dead." (Colossians 2:11-12) ) "...with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world..." (Colossians 2:20) "...you have been raised (resurrected) with Christ" (Colossians 3:1)​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I really don't know how you mean this. If you mean ~ as I have said ~ that we are all spiritually dead from birth until we are born again of the Spirit ~ which is another way of speaking of our spiritual resurrection in Christ ~ then yes. But the way you put it here is... well, kind of ridiculous, so I really don't know if that's what you mean or not. It seems not, since what you said immediately following this is, well, garbled, so say the least. Except for "(p)eople are born spiritually dead." That I agree with, as I have said many times.

No matter how much you try, being made alive in christ is not a resurrection! In order for it to be a RE-surrection, one would have to had been spiritually alive once, then die spiritually and then be made alive spiritually again! You have to remember the AGAIN. Being dead and raised top life is not a resurrection unless you were alive, and then died. These are terms we as Christians should use as the bible dies and not be so grammatically sloppy.

 

[PinSeeker]

...being made alive in christ is not a resurrection!

I fully understand that is your opinion. You are more than welcome (again) to call my belief... that being made alive in Christ ~ being raised with Christ in His resurrection ~ is a resurrection... is my opinion.

In order for it to be a RE-surrection, one would have to had been spiritually alive once...

No, but only previously spiritually dead, the state of being on which we agree.

Being dead and raised top life is not a resurrection unless you were alive, and then died.

You know what... Now don't go crazy with this (although I think you will, honestly), I will agree with you here if you understand that we were previously alive spiritually, even before our physical birth, in Adam, who was the federal head of the human race. In Adam, we all died.

These are terms we as Christians should use as the bible dies and not be so grammatically sloppy.

Forgive me here, but:

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Johann]

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

Aren't you going against the rules of this forum by posting stupid giff's like this?
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Aren't you going against the rules of this forum by posting stupid giff's like this?
J.

no more than your constant rude comments. You seem to have the people skills of A cucumber, but you dont hear us complaining.

 

[Johann]

no more than your constant rude comments. You seem to have the people skills of A cucumber, but you dont hear us complaining.

Let's put that to a test
J.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I fully understand that is your opinion. You are more than welcome (again) to call my belief... that being made alive in Christ ~ being raised with Christ in His resurrection ~ is a resurrection... is my opinion.

Well it is incorrect linguistically and biblically but you canhold any opinion you wish.

No, but only previously spiritually dead, the state of being on which we agree.

You say this because you have lost the meaning of a resurrection! The prefix "re" means again! This is why believers have lost sound doctrine. too many people playing lossely with words.

You know what... Now don't go crazy with this (although I think you will, honestly), I will agree with you here if you understand that we were previously alive spiritually, even before our physical birth, in Adam, who was the federal head of the human race. In Adam, we all died.

Well I can agree Adam was once spiritually alive. But we were not. He is the federal head of humanity, but His life and doings are not us. He died spiritually and we come from that death, so no were not alive spiritually in Adam. this is a game of twister you are trying.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well it is incorrect linguistically and biblically but you canhold any opinion you wish.

LOL! No it's not, Ronald. But like you say, yeah, opinions are like noses, so, right back atcha... :)

You say this because you have lost the meaning of a resurrection!

Well I can say it because that's what every dictionary on earth says so...

The prefix "re" means again!

That it does, and in Adam, the federal head of the human race, so were we all spiritually alive ~ in him; we are all represented by him ~ because he was before the events of Genesis 3.

This is why believers have lost sound doctrine. too many people playing loosely with words.

In principle, I agree with you here, but that's not happening here.

Well I can agree Adam was once spiritually alive.

Good.

But we were not.

He was representative of the entire human race to come. So, in him, Adam, we were.

He is the federal head of humanity... He died spiritually and we come from that death...

Right! You're so close...

...but His life and doings are not us... no we were not alive spiritually in Adam.

Yet so far away... :)

...this is a game of twister you are trying.

LOL! No... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That it does, and in Adam, the federal head of the human race, so were we all spiritually alive ~ in him; we are all represented by him ~ because he was before the events of Genesis 3.

proof?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He was representative of the entire human race to come. So, in him, Adam, we were.

Proof? I was in my father, but not in my grandfather. Yes Adam was the progenitor of humanity, but not spiritually. Unless you have biblical proof. But to follow your logic- we were alive in Adam and died some time from Adam to our conception! when did that happen and what proof do you offer?

Well I can say it because that's what every dictionary on earth says so...

res·ur·rec·tion
[ˌrezəˈrekSH(ə)n]
NOUN

1. the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected:
   "the story of the resurrection of Osiris"
   synonyms:
   raising from the dead · restoration to life · rising from the dead · return from the dead
   • (the Resurrection)
     (in Christian belief) Christ's rising from the dead.
   • (the Resurrection)
     (in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment.
   • the revitalization or revival of something:
     "the resurrection of the country under a charismatic leader" ·
     revival · restoration · regeneration · revitalization · reinvigoration · renewal · resuscitation · awakening · rejuvenation · stimulation ·
     [more]

Yes it is a rising again from the dead. ands you get around that by saying we were alive spiritually in Adam. But if you can show one verse either explicitly or strongly implicitly that shows we were alive once in Adam, I am all ears.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am all ears.

It seems not. :) Or, maybe you are "all ears," but really, you need to be all heart... :)... which is a work of the Spirit. But here you go:

In the latter half of Romans 5, Paul teaches that God deals with the human race under a system known as “federalism.” Simply put, federalism has to do with representation, with one person acting on behalf of another. Adam did not represent the race well; he disobeyed God. As a result, all of his descendants ~ everyone, as Eve is the mother of all the living (Genesis 3:20; this is the very reason Adam gave her the name Eve) ~ are born with an inclination to sin, and they all, by imputation, share in his guilt and suffer the same penalty he received ~ death. This is what Paul means when he says in verse 12 that “all sinned." Paul, as the federal head of the human race, represents us all before, during and after the fall (the events of Genesis 3). We were in God's grace and alive spiritually in Adam, sinned through our representation in Adam, and became dead spiritually in Adam, just as He did. Everything he was and did, because he is the federal head, is imputed to us from birth. Thus, our need for Jesus and our need to be imputed, by God's grace, with His righteousness, so that we might stand in the Judgment and be saved and granted eternal life.

I'm not "getting around" anything, Ronald.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It seems not. :) Or, maybe you are "all ears," but really, you need to be all heart... :)... which is a work of the Spirit. But here you go:

In the latter half of Romans 5, Paul teaches that God deals with the human race under a system known as “federalism.” Simply put, federalism has to do with representation, with one person acting on behalf of another. Adam did not represent the race well; he disobeyed God. As a result, all of his descendants ~ everyone, as Eve is the mother of all the living (Genesis 3:20; this is the very reason Adam gave her the name Eve) ~ are born with an inclination to sin, and they all, by imputation, share in his guilt and suffer the same penalty he received ~ death. This is what Paul means when he says in verse 12 that “all sinned." Paul, as the federal head of the human race, represents us all before, during and after the fall (the events of Genesis 3). We were in God's grace and alive spiritually in Adam, sinned through our representation in Adam, and became dead spiritually in Adam, just as He did. Everything he was and did, because he is the federal head, is imputed to us from birth. Thus, our need for Jesus and our need to be imputed, by God's grace, with His righteousness, so that we might stand in the Judgment and be saved and granted eternal life.

I'm not "getting around" anything, Ronald.

Grace and peace to you.

We did not exist before conception. We were known by God but did not come into existence.

and this "federalism" is just using words to get around again !

We are not born with an inclination to sin- we are born as sinners. It is our nature, not some inclination. But I still await one verse that shows we were spiritually aliove in Adam then became dead when He fell and then were resurrected spiritually when we became new creatures. C'mon thast is not hard to comprehend. All you did above is give me a philosophical hypothesis gioving your explanation of Romans 5 which says nothing you posted.

Romans 5:12-21
King James Version

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here above is the second half of Romans 5. Nowhere does it say we were alive in Adam once. We were not in Adam in reality. when Adam fell, His very spiritual nature died! He had no kids before he sinned. so all children born were born spiritually dead! If you will it is like a spiritual genetics. If Adam had a child before the fall- they would have been born perfect but innocent. but he didn't so all are born with the mutation called sin in our very nature and makes us sinner by nature.

 

[PinSeeker]

We did not exist before conception.

Right; in no way did I insinuate such.

We were known by God...

Yes, but the issue is what you think it means to be known by God, Ronald.

...this "federalism" is just using words to get around again!

Not at all. You seem to be avoiding that clear concept.

We are not born with an inclination to sin- we are born as sinners. It is our nature, not some inclination.

By 'inclination,' Ronald, I mean precisely that it is our nature. Because we are born sinners, because it is our nature, yes, we are sinners, and it is our full inclination to sin.

But I still await one verse that shows we were spiritually alive in Adam then became dead when He fell and then were resurrected spiritually when we became new creatures.

We are all represented by Adam, Ronald. Both before and after the fall.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right; in no way did I insinuate such.

C'mon! You said we were spiritually alive in Adam! What do you mean by that!

We are all represented by Adam, Ronald. Both before and after the fall.

Still waiting for the verses that prove were alive spiritually in Adam.

By 'inclination,' Ronald, I mean precisely that it is our nature. Because we are born sinners, because it is our nature, yes, we are sinners, and it is our full inclination to sin.

then you should have said so. Inclination is a tendency. and tendencies can be suppressed. with a sin nature- everything is sin- because we are dead spiritually.

Not at all. You seem to be avoiding that clear concept.

It may be a clear concept, but not a biblical concept. I was not in Adam before or after teh fall in any sense of that word. Adam sinned, died spiritually and became a dichotomous being from the trichotomous nature he had. He was just body and soul, for His spirit was dead and no longer functioning! I inherit that but was not in Adam prior to his fall nor during or after his fall.

Yes, but the issue is what you think it means to be known by God, Ronald.

to be known by God is to have God intimate with us.

 

[farouk]

C'mon! You said we were spiritually alive in Adam! What do you mean by that!




Still waiting for the verses that prove were alive spiritually in Adam.

@Ronald Nolette Umm.....Ephesians 2.1 indeed says the opposite........

 

[PinSeeker]

C'mon! You said we were spiritually alive in Adam! What do you mean by that!

We were represented by Adam, the head of the human race.

I was not in Adam before or after the fall in any sense of that word.

You were, in every sense of the word. He was representative of all of us.

Adam sinned, died spiritually and became a dichotomous being from the trichotomous nature he had. He was just body and soul, for His spirit was dead and no longer functioning!

Adam was representative of all of us from the time he was created.

to be known by God is to have God intimate with us.

Well, okay, close, in a sense, but far away in at least a couple of others. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You were, in every sense of the word. He was representative of all of us.

Still waiting for the bible verse to prove this.

Adam was representative of all of us from the time he was created.

Stil waiting for a bible verse that proives this. Not a commentary on a verse but an actual verse!

Well, okay, close, in a sense, but far away in at least a couple of others. :)

Well are you going to enlioghten me on what I am far away in a couple of others or just say it and drop it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Still waiting for the bible verse to prove this.

Why? It's all above... :) Even Farouk pitched in, and admirably so. :)

Still waiting for a bible verse that proves this. Not a commentary on a verse but an actual verse!

I gave you both... More than once... See above... :)

Well are you going to enlioghten me on what I am far away in a couple of others or just say it and drop it.

It's all above, really, Ronald. To this one particular thing, where you say to be known by God is to have God intimate with us, I mean, this is fine, and I agree, but the Bible says this in the far, far past tense, even before the foundation of the world, in the places that I'm referring to. And in doing so, it refers to a specific group of people, and not everyone. What it's saying is that He did something for those He chose even before the world began that He did not do for others. But still, He made everyone for a specific purpose. This is what the Bible says. Maybe you can take it from there. Or... maybe not. Yes, we can drop it if you like. Or we can continue if you like. It's up to you. But if we go on... No need to be so... contentious.

Grace and peace to you.