Satan was right? Egads!

[ScottA]

There is only one God and one Son, not a Godhead of three, that was never in the original scriptures, and Father and Son cannot be one and the same person, then my son would be me, and that makes no sense whatsoever.

How about "the two shall become one flesh", or "I and the Father are One," or "that they may be one just as We are one?"

Are those in the original scriptures?

 

[robert derrick]

The passage says they will become as gods knowing good and evil. So the only thing like god they would get is knowing good from evil. That does not say they will become gods.

But then God says they are gods:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Sorry for causing any bad feelings. I should have been more charitable. I can do that if I choose (I really am born again :)), but I chose to cause contention instead. So I ended up learning a lot from these threads. Forgive me my indiscretion. I'm comforted that Jesus, sitting at the right had of the Father, has. Grace, grace, grace!

God bless you brothers and sisters.

Yes, Satan was right, and God agrees.

The devil tells all men, that by sinning against the commandment of the true God, we would become as gods, knowing how to do both good and evil, and not the good only.

All sinners are gods to themselves, with power to choose to do good or evil, depending on their own will and desire, and God acknowledges it:

Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

All souls begin as children of the most High, in that all souls are made living by the Spirit of God to be wrapped in the mother's womb.

Once the soul sins, he dies to the true God, and becomes a god unto himself, but is no god at all, but only an idol unto himself:

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

By nature, we are made living souls by the Spirit of God to partake of His divine nature. By sinning we make ourselves foolish gods of our own, and no more a son of God made with the divine nature of eternal Life.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam as all men were sons of God by His Spirit made in the lowest parts of the earth, and breathed into mortal flesh.

But all men, save One, have sinned to become gods of their own, but if the sinner repents of being and idolizing his own god on earth, and believes the Gospel to receive Jesus Christ within the heart, then he becomes a son of God again, even as the Son of God on earth and in heaven.

 

[robert derrick]

Sorry for causing any bad feelings. I should have been more charitable. I can do that if I choose (I really am born again :)), but I chose to cause contention instead. So I ended up learning a lot from these threads. Forgive me my indiscretion. I'm comforted that Jesus, sitting at the right had of the Father, has. Grace, grace, grace!

God bless you brothers and sisters.

Now, that Jesus is God is plainly written in Scripture, Who was with God and was God in the beginning.

Once God, always God, even the resurrected God and Christ Jesus.

I.e. you are just another idol worshipper of yourself and your own god you call 'jehovah', which is why you love each other more than the true God and eternal life Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

And so, you simply choose another name of your own liking for yourself and your own god above the name Jesus.

Simple.

Until you repent of your sins, beginning with your idolatry of your own making, I can't love you as a Christian, because you're not one. However, I could certainly be neighborly with you like any other neighbor, so long as your god doesn't tell you to start stealing, raping, murdering, drunkenly marauding the neighborhood, etc...

Until then I will be more honest than you, and call you Rich Jehovah, or Jehovah Rich, or Jehovah the Rich, or Rich the Jehovah.

I.e. be honest with yourself and stop calling yourself a Christian that idolizes a name of your own choosing. Afterall, before we can become good ground for Jesus Christ to dwell in, we must first be honest in our own hearts:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

No idol is born again.

 

[Rich R]

Now, that Jesus is God is plainly written in Scripture, Who was with God and was God in the beginning.

Once God, always God, even the resurrected God and Christ Jesus.

I.e. you are just another idol worshipper of yourself and your own god you call 'jehovah', which is why you love each other more than the true God and eternal life Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

And so, you simply choose another name of your own liking for yourself and your own god above the name Jesus.

Simple.

Until you repent of your sins, beginning with your idolatry of your own making, I can't love you as a Christian, because you're not one. However, I could certainly be neighborly with you like any other neighbor, so long as your god doesn't tell you to start stealing, raping, murdering, drunkenly marauding the neighborhood, etc...

Until then I will be more honest than you, and call you Rich Jehovah, or Jehovah Rich, or Jehovah the Rich, or Rich the Jehovah.

I.e. be honest with yourself and stop calling yourself a Christian that idolizes a name of your own choosing. Afterall, before we can become good ground for Jesus Christ to dwell in, we must first be honest in our own hearts:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

No idol is born again.

Your zeal is admirable to be sure, but, like Saul persecuting the Christians, it is highly misdirected.

I find it notable that non-Trinitarians seldom, if ever, excoriate Trinitarians with such vitriol as you've exhibited here. I would never say anything to you like that. You are my brother and I love you. Your stance on the Trinity could never outweigh my estimation of you as a child of God.

I sometimes wonder if I would be burned at the stake for my stance if it were still fashionable. Considering the hateful words I've endured from my brothers and sisters, I'm afraid I must conclude the chances would be quite high I would have indeed been reduced to a pile of ashes by now.

But I'm actually more concerned by those who exhibit such hate than the hurt I've endured by my brothers and sisters. If you are wrong, and I am a Christian (I did Romans 10:9-10 and there's nothing about believe Jesus is God there), you, by your lack of love for a brother, are walking in darkness.

1 John 2:11,

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
​

Doesn't mean you will loose your salvation (1 Pet 1:23), but you are missing out many blessings as long as you harbor such hate simply because a brother disagrees with you. You can believe the trinity or not. I will still love you as my brother. I have a clear conscience on this. I know it from both sides. I used to believe the trinity and I also harbored intense hate to those who didn't believe it. I was in reality just like Paul before he stopping killing Christians. He was sincere in his beliefs, but those beliefs led him down a path that was quite opposite to that which he later walked. With time, I've slowly shed those feelings and I have much more joy and confidence in my God, Yahweh, and my Lord, Jesus Christ.

​

 

[APAK]

How about "the two shall become one flesh", or "I and the Father are One," or "that they may be one just as We are one?"

Are those in the original scriptures?

Could not help add in to what was clearly missing in your post here Scott.....
There's one common denominator to all the three part of verses you quoted...
'one mind and propose'.....concerning your last expression you quoted.

It was from John 17:11..".so that they may be one (in mind and purpose) as we are."

The shared group mindset and common purpose provided only by the Spirit of the Father.

 

[JohnPaul]

How about "the two shall become one flesh", or "I and the Father are One," or "that they may be one just as We are one?"

Are those in the original scriptures?

You make no sense two persons cannot be one and the same just like me and my son aren’t one.

 

[ScottA]

Could not help add in to what was clearly missing in your post here Scott.....
There's one common denominator to all the three part of verses you quoted...
'one mind and propose'.....concerning your last expression you quoted.

It was from John 17:11..".so that they may be one (in mind and purpose) as we are."

The shared group mindset and common purpose provided only by the Spirit of the Father.

Yes, even Israel is recorded as having acted from time to time "as one man."

Still, we are talking about God who's ways are higher...and the word does say "One God", but also "was God" referring to Jesus. I just don't consider it wise to assume the matter to be according to men's logic as if God instead were created in man's image. Rather that men seeing that image cast in themselves have instead fallen short of the greater truth. But I don't see any of that as a problem...except in understanding.

 

[ScottA]

You make no sense two persons cannot be one and the same just like me and my son aren’t one.

What doesn't make sense, is to consider the matter by the logic of men in their lowly state.

But rather that we should consider the biblical examples cast into the lives of mere men--as being barely representational, even as the church who would be headless if considered overly separate rather than as one body. But, no, the Spirit and all that is only imagined by men, has yet to be seen...but is spoken of, even as the two becoming "one flesh." It is therefore, more likely that what we have not even imagined, is closer to the truth than what we have imagined.

If that makes sense.

 

[ScottA]

Your zeal is admirable to be sure, but, like Saul persecuting the Christians, it is highly misdirected.

I find it notable that non-Trinitarians seldom, if ever, excoriate Trinitarians with such vitriol as you've exhibited here. I would never say anything to you like that. You are my brother and I love you. Your stance on the Trinity could never outweigh my estimation of you as a child of God.

I sometimes wonder if I would be burned at the stake for my stance if it were still fashionable. Considering the hateful words I've endured from my brothers and sisters, I'm afraid I must conclude the chances would be quite high I would have indeed been reduced to a pile of ashes by now.

But I'm actually more concerned by those who exhibit such hate than the hurt I've endured by my brothers and sisters. If you are wrong, and I am a Christian (I did Romans 10:9-10 and there's nothing about believe Jesus is God there), you, by your lack of love for a brother, are walking in darkness.

1 John 2:11,

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
​

Doesn't mean you will loose your salvation (1 Pet 1:23), but you are missing out many blessings as long as you harbor such hate simply because a brother disagrees with you. You can believe the trinity or not. I will still love you as my brother. I have a clear conscience on this. I know it from both sides. I used to believe the trinity and I also harbored intense hate to those who didn't believe it. I was in reality just like Paul before he stopping killing Christians. He was sincere in his beliefs, but those beliefs led him down a path that was quite opposite to that which he later walked. With time, I've slowly shed those feelings and I have much more joy and confidence in my God, Yahweh, and my Lord, Jesus Christ.

That is very well stated, certainly reflecting the love of Christ--thank you!

Which I do not say because I do or do not believe in a trinitarian God. If anything, I consider three not enough to be accurate. But then the scriptures do refer to three "in heaven"--not by any coincidence, but with purpose known to God. And in the unfolding of every [written] word of God, not before, but in the fulness of time, there are three who are introduced, each One by His predecessor, which is by the One who sent Him.

Again--thank you!

 

[Scott Downey]

Not all gods are Yahweh.

G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.
1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).

To the ancient Jews (including the early Christians who were pretty much all Jewish) the word "god" had a different meaning than we tend to have in the modern West. When we hear the word "god" we think that it has to refer to Yahweh, the creator of heaven and earth. We don't realize that there are in fact many gods (1 Cor 8:5-6) besides Yahweh.

Here's Strong's Concordance:

G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.

1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).
​

That is how the Jews thought of the word God. Again, while there are many gods (1 Cor 8:5-6), there is only one Yahweh. While Jesus certainly could be considered supernatural (he did rise from the dead, something not natural) as well as powerful, it's no surprise that Thomas acknowledged this. Nonetheless, Jesus is not Yahweh. He is the son of Yahweh.

Jewish thinking dominated the early church. That's why the early church didn't believe in a trinity. It was only when Gentiles, steeped in Greek and Pagan philosophy, began to increase in numbers within the church that the idea of a trinity began to become part of church doctrine.

Plato believed in a form of the trinity (good, logos, & the spirit) and that is basically where the trinity came from. Virtually all the church fathers of the 2nd and 3rd century where quite enamored with Plato, so they thought it'd be great to include it in their Christian doctrine.

Thomas being one of the apostles wont be calling Christ his God if it was not true, Jesus also because of what Thomas says tells him he is blessed. Everything you responded with is meaningless to the context of scripture, it is just a diversion tactic.

 

[APAK]

Yes, even Israel is recorded as having acted from time to time "as one man."

Still, we are talking about God who's ways are higher...and the word does say "One God", but also "was God" referring to Jesus. I just don't consider it wise to assume the matter to be according to men's logic as if God instead were created in man's image. Rather that men seeing that image cast in themselves have instead fallen short of the greater truth. But I don't see any of that as a problem...except in understanding.

What are you talking about Scott. I haven't the foggiest. Are you responding to my post or someone else's post?

 

[ScottA]

What are you talking about Scott. I haven't the foggiest. Are you responding to my post or someone else's post?

Haha...shall I retrace your steps, or you?

I was responding to your comment and point of 'one mind and propose'...and how it relates to One God only meaning one purpose, as groups can sometimes do. But I was suggesting that it did not apply in the case of God, because that makes men the rule, rather than God. But that the mere examples created in the lives of men and their own logic and those lesser examples, should rather point to the greater truth of God yet to be known to men.

 

[APAK]

Haha...shall I retrace your steps, or you?

I was responding to your comment and point of 'one mind and propose'...and how it relates to One God only meaning one purpose, as groups can sometimes do. But I was suggesting that it did not apply in the case of God, because that makes men the rule, rather than God. But that the mere examples created in the lives of men and their own logic and those lesser examples, should rather point to the greater truth of God yet to be known to men.

So the meaning of scripture related to 'becoming or becoming one with God,' as you gave, and the one I gave, one of yours, and others then, cannot be understood or explained in full because God cannot be understood? Is this is what you are saying?

 

[JohnPaul]

What doesn't make sense, is to consider the matter by the logic of men in their lowly state.

But rather that we should consider the biblical examples cast into the lives of mere men--as being barely representational, even as the church who would be headless if considered overly separate rather than as one body. But, no, the Spirit and all that is only imagined by men, has yet to be seen...but is spoken of, even as the two becoming "one flesh." It is therefore, more likely that what we have not even imagined, is closer to the truth than what we have imagined.

If that makes sense.

Jehovah is God, Christ is his son whom Jehovah sent to wash away our sins, you or no one else is going to make me believe different.

 

[ScottA]

So the meaning of scripture related to 'becoming or becoming one with God,' as you gave, and the one I gave, one of yours, and others then, cannot be understood or explained in full because God cannot be understood? Is this is what you are saying?

No, no...just that our default should not be to lean on or favor our own understanding. Which I only mean as a caution to those who are prone to assumption. Not to say that is what you have done. But certainly we should remember that God is God, and that after He has told us that much of what we have to go by is an image seen dimly, we should leave room for things regarding Him to be beyond the measure of examples given to men.

As for understanding God, we absolutely can understand Him, because He has made Himself known to us. He has also given us bits and pieces, "line upon line, here a little, there a little" as it were, and the promise of "all truth" by the Spirit--during these times.

I suppose the caution is only that we take heed to the dangers of our own limits, not His.

As for the topic at hand, I have expressed it before that by the nature of all the information that we have coming to us like a glacier of revelations over millennia, is part of the problem. That when the dots are all connected, "I am" is the correct way to understand "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Likewise, that "God is One", is the correct way to understand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So then, if we look from the single-beam side of the prism, rather than the refracted side...the Light of God, looks quite different.

 

[Keiw]

Your "simple solution" is rank heresy.

Better tell that to the psalmist and Paul-- Psalm 45:7--partners = angels-- Hebrews 1:3-4-- Jesus would be equal to angels)( partners) if he didnt inherit a name more excellent than theirs. Your translations are filled with misleading errors causing contradictions to mislead, by satans will from centuries ago= 0 doubt.

 

[Keiw]

Satan has blinded your eyes to the scripture, or else you refuse the truth. The scripture speaks over and over to the fact that Jesus is God and always was. There are 3 or 4 threads ongoing right now on this very subject and there is a multitude of scriptural references to Jesus being God. Faith in (the true) Jesus Christ is a requirement for salvation. I'm shaking my head over how many faithless people there are on this forum.

Maybe you missed Psalm 45:7--partners = angels, and Hebrews 1:3-4--he is only better than the angels because he inherited a name above theirs.
Your translations are filled with contradictory errors by satans will through the religion that came out of Rome centuries ago. He has billions mislead into serving a non existent trinity. They are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily making them workers of iniquity( Matt 7:22-23) one does not want to hear those words from Jesus as judgement.

 

[APAK]

No, no...just that our default should not be to lean on or favor our own understanding. Which I only mean as a caution to those who are prone to assumption. Not to say that is what you have done. But certainly we should remember that God is God, and that after He has told us that much of what we have to go by is an image seen dimly, we should leave room for things regarding Him to be beyond the measure of examples given to men.

As for understanding God, we absolutely can understand Him, because He has made Himself known to us. He has also given us bits and pieces, "line upon line, here a little, there a little" as it were, and the promise of "all truth" by the Spirit--during these times.

I suppose the caution is only that we take heed to the dangers of our own limits, not His.

As for the topic at hand, I have expressed it before that by the nature of all the information that we have coming to us like a glacier of revelations over millennia, is part of the problem. That when the dots are all connected, "I am" is the correct way to understand "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Likewise, that "God is One", is the correct way to understand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So then, if we look from the single-beam side of the prism, rather than the refracted side...the Light of God, looks quite different.

I tend to agree with what you said, less the next to the last statement when you said, Likewise, that "God is One", is the correct way to understand "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

This sounds to me like a Trinitarian biased statement or if not, many with still think this is what it means.

I believe the oneness of God, indeed, as the oneness of the Father and his Spirit only, and then his Son he made for him and our sake. All in one and made possible only by sharing in the Father's holy and divine spirit, as we as believers are one in the same. And fully mature and realized after our own rapture at Christ's Parousia into the Kingdom. Then not only will our spirits be united with the Father's spirit, then also truly, in one mind and purpose as Christ had since his birth. And then useful only when his physical size of brain and its faculties matured.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the son of God, which technically means he is offspring of God himself.

The Bible says over and over and over again that Jesus is a man. Jesus calls himself a man.

Both are titles. There is only one god, using a capital letter for this species of life is still just a species categorization, like Cat compared to cat. The name of the one god is YHWH.

The Son of God's name is Jesus, which is not YWHW.

Jesus is God's Anointed. Being anointed by God does not make one God.

 

[Wrangler]

I think you might be taking this "we'll be gods" too far.

Jesus used that as his defense in calling himself son of God. Why is it taking it too far.? See Ps 82, particularly v6.