Who is the Queen of Heaven.

[Philip James]

Hello farouk,

...since indeed the NT says there is 'one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' (1 Timothy 2.5)

No argument on that..

, then the fact that many ppl still see others as worthy of imprecation shows that pagan practises - against all denials - are still apparent.

Im not sure what you are trying to say here, can you rephrase it?

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Illuminator]

....since indeed the NT says there is 'one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' (1 Timothy 2.5), then the fact that many ppl still see others as worthy of imprecation shows that pagan practises - against all denials - are still apparent.

What a stupid, insulting load of crap! The so called reformers ditched the doctrine of the Communion of Saints to fit their politics. The false charge of paganism doesn't work either.
Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nice long post. Now lets see which one of us is correct. Cornelius and his household were filled with the Holy Spirit as the disciples were at Pentecost and spoke in tongues PRIOR to being baptised in water

THANK YOU for bringing this up because this is at the very heart of the pronlem with you Baptism-haters.
You guys simply don't understand the hermeneutical rule: DON'T create doctrines based on exceptions to the rule. Doctrines are based on the NORM.

The Bible tells us over and pover that we MUST be Baptized with WATER in order to have our sins forgiven and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Ezek. 36:25-28, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 8:36-38, 1 Pet. 3:21). God can and DOES make exceptions to just about EVERY rule.

Tell me - WHY were Ananias ansd Sapphira struck DEAD for lying to God?
People do this EVERY day and aren't stryck dead. Ananias ansd Sapphira were an EXCEPTION.

WHY did Jesus use spittle and durt to heal the Blind Man?
Does EVERY blind person that has been healed throughout Christendon healed in the SAME manner?

Now - how about ANSWERING the questions I asked of YOU??

- WHY did Jsus need to use spit and dirt to rub into the Blind Man's eyes?
- WHY did Jesus use WATER to make wine?
- WHY did Jesus need fish and bread in order to make more fish and bread??
WHY does James command the uthat the sick be prayed over and anointed with OIL?

 

[BreadOfLife]

You haven't got a clue have you. Its a great pity your church has failed so badly to explain the new covenant to you

Are you EVER going to respond with something other than a NON-answer??

I gave you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position.
How about givimng me a SCRIPTURAL refutation?

CAN you do that??

 

[stephen64]

THANK YOU for bringing this up because this is at the very heart of the pronlem with you Baptism-haters.
You guys simply don't understand the hermeneutical rule: DON'T create doctrines based on exceptions to the rule. Doctrines are based on the NORM.

The Bible tells us over and pover that we MUST be Baptized with WATER in order to have our sins forgiven and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Ezek. 36:25-28, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 8:36-38, 1 Pet. 3:21). God can and DOES make exceptions to just about EVERY rule.

Tell me - WHY were Ananias ansd Sapphira struck DEAD for lying to God?
People do this EVERY day and aren't stryck dead. Ananias ansd Sapphira were an EXCEPTION.

WHY did Jesus use spittle and durt to heal the Blind Man?
Does EVERY blind person that has been healed throughout Christendon healed in the SAME manner?

Now - how about ANSWERING the questions I asked of YOU??

- WHY did Jsus need to use spit and dirt to rub into the Blind Man's eyes?
- WHY did Jesus use WATER to make wine?
- WHY did Jesus need fish and bread in order to make more fish and bread??
WHY does James command the uthat the sick be prayed over and anointed with OIL?

One thing you have in common with protestants, when you are proved wrong by scripture you ignore it. You say the bible states we must be baptised with water in order to have sins forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit, but again, that was not the case with cornelius and his household was it:

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” Acts11:15-17

Which shows your wooden literalistic interpretation of a few choice scriptures is obviously the wrong way to read the bible isn't it. Here's a hint, don't put God in a box, he can do what he chooses and when he chooses.
In all Paul's letters, or any of the apostles letters, when did they once say you must be baptised in water before you can receive the Spirit? You can quote Acts2:38, but then, your first pope had to change his mind when he went to visit cornelius didn't he.

 

[stephen64]

Reconsile that with the follwing . . .
Mark 121:28-34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

NOWHERE does Jesus condemn the MORAL aspects oof the Law here.
In fact - He tells the rabbi that he is NOT far from the Kingdom of God.

Even Paul makes clear that it is only the CERMONIAL and DIETARY aspects of the Law that we are no longer bound by. But, Jesus makes crystal-clear - we are STILL bound by the MORAL aspects of the Law.

The first three Commandments are about the ONE God.
The rest of the Commandmets are encompassed in loving our NEIGHBOR as ourselves.

You call the above a scriptural rebuttal of scripture? I did nothing but quote you scripture, and all you did was seek to overturn it because you don't understand the message. What do you think now, Im going to go over each and every point you made trying to counter scripture. Lets sum it up in one verse, that Im sure you wont understand either:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(righteousness of faith in Christ not by observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law! Rom3:31
To your natural mind(as you cannot have the Holy Spirit guiding you into truth here) if you quote the scripture: ''Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by obeying the law/not committing sin rather through the law we become conscious of sin'' your fleshy mind immediatley thinks the believer would be entitled to ignore the good and Holy laws of God. No wonder you want to stick with rite, ritual and ceremony as you do, you cannot understand the deeper things of the bible can you. I blame your church, after all, you do believe its their responsibility to lead you into truth don't you?

 

[EloyCraft]

Oh I agree with water baptism, I've been baptised in water, everyone should be. But Cornelius and his household had received salvation/been saved, prior to getting baptised in water. That's the only point I'm making

The Spirit they received would be considered invalid had they not desired Baptism with water.
The Holy Spirit is the author of the rite of Baptism.
If Baptism in the Holy Spirit is believed to have occurred PRIOR to Baptism in water the Spirit will cause the desire to Be baptized with water. The absence of that desire invalidates the identity of the spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the one who sent John to Baptize in water..

1. John 1:33
   And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’

 

[stephen64]

If Baptism in the Holy Spirit is believed to have occurred PRIOR to baptism in water the Spirit will cause the desire to Be baptized with water.

I completely agree with the above

 

[Philip James]

If Baptism in the Holy Spirit is believed to have occurred PRIOR to Baptism in water the Spirit will cause the desire to Be baptized with water.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Truther]

As usual theefaith is taking something out of context to "prove" false doctrine.

Here is wrote Ezekiel wrote -- in context: ‘I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries; then I will bring you to your land. I will sprinkle you with pure water, and you will be clean from all your impurities. I will purify you from all your idols. I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you; I will take the initiative, and you will obey my statutes and carefully observe my regulations." Ezekiel 36:24-27

a) Gather the Jews from distant lands
b) Clean them from their impurities and idols
c) Give them a new heart: remove the heart of stone and replace it with one of flesh
d) Put His Spirit within them
c) Then they will obey His statutes and carefully observe His regulations

Anyone who thinks this refers to the water baptism of the New Testament is nuts!

Yes, it refers to the Jews being saved by Jesus at His return and filling them all with His Spirit from the least to the greatest per Jer 31, Zech 14 etc.

 

[Truther]

Catholics agree.
That's why Jesus put him in charge (Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19).

In Matt. 28:19, Jesus told Peter and the rest that they must Baptize "in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT."
Peter and his successors have been following this command for 2000 years.

Time for a Linguistics Lesson, Einstein . . .
The Greek word used for "Name" in Matt. 28:19 is ονομα (on'-om-ah).
Here is the DEFINITON of that word:
1) name: univ. of proper names 2) the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

It's important to rememer ONE thing, son:
Greek is NOT English, so you've LOST this argument . . .

And speaking of Acts 2:38, which YOU brought up - you left out the verse that followS.
We ALSO agree with what Peter said regarding our children and Baptism:
Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your CHILDREN and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Good advice, Einstein . . .

What is the name of the son that Jesus said for them "to baptize in the name of", per Matt 28:19?

A...Jesus.

B...George.

C...son.

Pick one.

 

[EloyCraft]

I completely agree with the above

What does it mean if there is no desire for baptism with water? What if the experience leads them to believe the rite of Baptism is no longer a concern?

 

[stephen64]

What does it mean if there is no desire for baptism with water? What if the experience leads them to believe the rite of Baptism is no longer a concern?

I would have to seriously question why such a person was not concerned about being baptised in water.
I'm afraid I cant go beyond that. I've met some wonderful salvation army people, they do not believe in water baptism I believe. I wouldn't be comfortable with passing judgement on them, I don't feel in the slightest able to do that
I can only say from a personal point of view, in every church I have been to, everyone I have known has had the experience of baptism in water

 

[user]

What is the name of the son that Jesus said for them "to baptize in the name of", per Matt 28:19?

A...Jesus.

B...George.

C...son.

Pick one.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But @BreadOfLife and @theefaith do NOT "believe" .

They have REMOVED Jesus NAME from baptism and replaced it with a generic "SON"

And, replaced baptism itself with "sprinkling"

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Therefor they do not have the name nor the burial with him. They have denied him.

They would have this to read.....

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ(Son) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14-16 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus(Son).

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus(Son).


And would have this to read....

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water(my water bottle); what doth hinder me to be baptized(sprinkled)?

 

[Jim B]

What a stupid, insulting load of crap! The so called reformers ditched the doctrine of the Communion of Saints to fit their politics. The false charge of paganism doesn't work either.
Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

"What a stupid, insulting load of crap!" Where in the Bible does language like this appear? And you call yourself a Christian? You are under the control of Satan!

 

[Jim B]

The Spirit they received would be considered invalid had they not desired Baptism with water.
The Holy Spirit is the author of the rite of Baptism.
If Baptism in the Holy Spirit is believed to have occurred PRIOR to Baptism in water the Spirit will cause the desire to Be baptized with water. The absence of that desire invalidates the identity of the spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the one who sent John to Baptize in water..

1. John 1:33
   And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’

This is total nonsense!

 

[Jim B]

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water

Pax et Bonum

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

If you claim (correctly) that Christ is risen, why do you show Him as dead on the cross? It's one or the other!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You call the above a scriptural rebuttal of scripture?

Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie.

I NEVER stated that I was giving you a "Scriptural rebuttall of Scripture".
I told you explicitly that I was giving you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position - for which YOU had no Scriptural rebuttal.

Get your story straight.

I did nothing but quote you scripture, and all you did was seek to overturn it because you don't understand the message.

You can "quote" Scripture until the COWS come home - but since you can't formulate a cohesive argument for your position - then you have FAILED.

What do you think now, Im going to go over each and every point you made trying to counter scripture.

YES - that's how a "debate" works, Einstein.
It doesn't work by posting idiotiuc denials and hit-and-run comments with NO substance.

Lets sum it up in one verse, that Im sure you wont understand either:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(righteousness of faith in Christ not by observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law! Rom3:31
To your natural mind(as you cannot have the Holy Spirit guiding you into truth here) if you quote the scripture: ''Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by obeying the law/not committing sin rather through the law we become conscious of sin'' your fleshy mind immediatley thinks the believer would be entitled to ignore the good and Holy laws of God. No wonder you want to stick with rite, ritual and ceremony as you do, you cannot understand the deeper things of the bible can you. I blame your church, after all, you do believe its their responsibility to lead you into truth don't you?

This passage DOESN'T imply that we can simply "ignore" the Commandments - even though this is what YOU glean from it in your abjecy ignorance.

Do me a favor - RECONCILE (give me a SCRIPTURAL explanation) your aegument with the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46) - and the following verses.
They ALL conclude that we MUST adhere to the Commandments . . .

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Pet. 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Rev. 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

 

[stephen64]

Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie.

I NEVER stated that I was giving you a "Scriptural rebuttall of Scripture".
I told you explicitly that I was giving you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position - for which YOU had no Scriptural rebuttal.

Get your story straight.

You can "quote" Scripture until the COWS come home - but since you can't formulate a cohesive argument for your position - then you have FAILED.

YES - that's how a "debate" works, Einstein.
It doesn't work by posting idiotiuc denials and hit-and-run comments with NO substance.

This passage DOESN'T imply that we can simply "ignore" the Commandments - even though this is what YOU glean from it in your abjecy ignorance.

Do me a favor - RECONCILE (give me a SCRIPTURAL explanation) your aegument with the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46) - and the following verses.
They ALL conclude that we MUST adhere to the Commandments . . .

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Pet. 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Rev. 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.



YES - that's how a "debate" works, Einstein.
It doesn't work by posting idiotiuc denials and hit-and-run comments with NO substance.


Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie.

I NEVER stated that I was giving you a "Scriptural rebuttall of Scripture".
I told you explicitly that I was giving you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position - for which YOU had no Scriptural rebuttal.
You can "quote" Scripture until the COWS come home - but since you can't formulate a cohesive argument for your position - then you have FAILED.

I have no inclination at all to respond to the above, as it is obvious to me you have no understanding of the core message of the person commissioned to be the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world.

 

[Jim B]

Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie.

I NEVER stated that I was giving you a "Scriptural rebuttall of Scripture".
I told you explicitly that I was giving you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position - for which YOU had no Scriptural rebuttal.

Get your story straight.

You can "quote" Scripture until the COWS come home - but since you can't formulate a cohesive argument for your position - then you have FAILED.

YES - that's how a "debate" works, Einstein.
It doesn't work by posting idiotiuc denials and hit-and-run comments with NO substance.

This passage DOESN'T imply that we can simply "ignore" the Commandments - even though this is what YOU glean from it in your abjecy ignorance.

Do me a favor - RECONCILE (give me a SCRIPTURAL explanation) your aegument with the Lesson of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46) - and the following verses.
They ALL conclude that we MUST adhere to the Commandments . . .

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Pet. 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Rev. 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.



YES - that's how a "debate" works, Einstein.
It doesn't work by posting idiotiuc denials and hit-and-run comments with NO substance.


Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie.

I NEVER stated that I was giving you a "Scriptural rebuttall of Scripture".
I told you explicitly that I was giving you a SCRIPTURAL argument for my position - for which YOU had no Scriptural rebuttal.
You can "quote" Scripture until the COWS come home - but since you can't formulate a cohesive argument for your position - then you have FAILED.

Since you wrote, "Once again - you repod eith Lie after Lie." I assume that you're drunk or stoned. Which is it?