Satan was right? Egads!
- Thread starter Rich R
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The Pharisees were convinced Jesus had a devil.
John 8:48,
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Any comments on the actual OP?
I did. You believe satan ....I believe God/Jesus. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Satan has no truth in him. Why believe him?
These verses ... Jesus'own words ....say that Jesus is God. Jesus uses "my word" and "God's word" interchangeably.
John 8:42-47
[42]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
[43]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[44]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[45]And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
[46]Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
[47]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 8:42-47
[42]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
[43]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[44]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[45]And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
[46]Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
[47]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Being more interested in the scriptures than tradition, I'd be interested in seeing which verse says, "Jesus was God." You know, something as clear as Acts 2:22.
Acts 2:22,
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Anywhere that says, "Jesus of Nazareth, God....?"
BTW I can find about 6 other places that specifically calls Jesus a man.
Rom 5:15,
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto man
Acts 17:31,
Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Tim 2:5,
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John 4:29,
Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
If you're thinking of John 20:28, better learn what a "god" meant to the Jews. Just look it up in Strong's. There you will find it basically means anybody with power and authority. Of course Jesus had both. They were given to him by God. Wait...what...one part of God gave another part something it didn't have? How does that work? As 1 Cor 8:5 says, there are many gods, but to us there is but one. That would be the FATHER. Jesus is NOT the father.
1Cor 8:5-6,
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Again, Jesus is NOT the Father, so he's not God.
I meant showing that the verses I quoted don't show that we are in the form and image of God. We're talking about scriptures, so it'd be nice to use them to make your argument. As it is, you are not saying anything different that what the Pharisees said to Jesus. They couldn't use scriptures to back their accusation either.
There are also a multitude of scriptures that would make it quite impossible of Jesus to be God. You should be able to find them in those threads. I've given many multiple times.
Clearly we can't have discrepancies in the scriptures. They all have to fit one way or the other. I know all the verses that infer Jesus is God (I used to believe Jesus is God), but none are as clear as those half dozen or so that specifically call Jesus a man, along with those that say God is NOT a man. Without saying you are wrong about Jesus being God, how do you square that?
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I see from the Bible an everlasting and almighty Father dividing Himself into two...thus begetting a Son...a smaller version of Himself.
Jesus is equally God with the Father in nature, character, and Spirit ...but not in stature. The Father is the MOST High. Jesus is not the Most High. But He is Lord Yahvew, the God of Israel, the King of the Jews, the Prince of peace...and mighty God (although not ALL-mighty...that is the Father.)
Everything that Jesus does is to please the Father. Nowhere in the Bible do we see the Father trying to please His Son. People have a hard time seeing the difference between Jesus indeed being God and NOT having the same stature as the Father. But that's just because we tend to rationalize things. We fail to see the scale of just who God is. Look at the size of the universe. Now look at the size of our planet. If we think only on a global scale we miss the scale we are to measure it against. So it is with the Father and the Son.
We are to be conformed to the stature of Christ....never the stature of the Father. But that doesn't mean that Jesus is not the life-giving Spirit who created the world we live in. The Head of every man is Christ. And the Head of Christ is God.
Jesus is equally God with the Father in nature, character, and Spirit ...but not in stature. The Father is the MOST High. Jesus is not the Most High. But He is Lord Yahvew, the God of Israel, the King of the Jews, the Prince of peace...and mighty God (although not ALL-mighty...that is the Father.)
Everything that Jesus does is to please the Father. Nowhere in the Bible do we see the Father trying to please His Son. People have a hard time seeing the difference between Jesus indeed being God and NOT having the same stature as the Father. But that's just because we tend to rationalize things. We fail to see the scale of just who God is. Look at the size of the universe. Now look at the size of our planet. If we think only on a global scale we miss the scale we are to measure it against. So it is with the Father and the Son.
We are to be conformed to the stature of Christ....never the stature of the Father. But that doesn't mean that Jesus is not the life-giving Spirit who created the world we live in. The Head of every man is Christ. And the Head of Christ is God.
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Are you?
The Jews understood what Jesus was saying in calling Himself the Son of God. "For which good work do you stone me? Not for any good work, but because you, a man, make yourself to be God!"
They got it. Why can't we?
Much love!
Yes, and now here is Yet Another thread attacking the deity of Jesus Christ.
It does generate a lof of "clicks", though, so there's that! Controversy sells.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
You are not making the distinction between CHRIST as the the pre-incarnate WORD, with the Virgin born Son of God, JESUS.
You are confusing "let us make man in OUR Image".. . = God the Father and The WORD made flesh,.. and not understanding that Jesus is the SON, Manifested as God in the Flesh.
So, the born again, are conformed into the image of CHRIST., who is the 2nd Adam.
Humans are not "turned into YWHY"< they are born again as SONS of God.
However, by being born again, they have become "ONE with God". "in Christ".
Jesus said many times he was the son of God. Never said he was the Father (the only God as per 1 Cor 8:6). The Pharisees got it wrong.
But there is actually more to it. In the Ancient Near East (including Jews, those to whom God gave the scriptures) considered the eldest son as virtually equal to their father in all respects. Of course they understood the son was not actually their own father. It was their culture and God wrote in terms they could understand. We need to see what popped in their minds when reading the scriptures. I mean God certainly didn't talk about the expanding universe in Genesis!
I searched for the phrase "Jesus is God" in my Bible program. Tried several versions. Nothing came up. Which version do you see the phrase, "Jesus is God?"
I think I'll rather listen to the native speakers in their own language and culture.
For all the convoluted arguments, the truth is in the simplicity of the Word. Jesus told them Who He is, and they understood Him, they rejected His claim. But there was no question about His claim, not that He stood in for God, rather, that He is God. They murdered Him for that claim.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Who told you that "God manifested in the Flesh", had to be the "Father" to be "God"?
The Bible didnt tell you that...
So, who told you?
Behold
Well-Known Member
AJ not to persuade you otherwise as you have your mind made up, although I do see in this scripture you have written that Jesus does not say or even imply he is God, who is his Father. And Jesus uses the same backdrop and title, that his God is his Father and he at least implies he is his Son throughout scripture where he speaks to the Pharisees.
Let's look at John 8:41 then 42: The Pharisees told Jesus they only have one Father, God Almighty. And then Jesus quickly says to them if God was truly your Father you would love me. Jesus was saying that if you truly love God, their Father and his, then you would love the Son of God in the process, and they didn't, they wanted him killed. And Jesus reassured them he did not just come out of nowhere from some parents, and now claiming this title of the Son of God, because he was born of God, his Father.
And then in verse 47 where you highlighted at the end. Jesus was reiterating verse 42 and said if you are of God (with the Father's Spirit), it would tell you and you would hear (inside their heart and mind) that I'm indeed the Son of God, and because you do not you are not of God, his Father, and not their Father. As in Verse 44, the Pharisees are of the devil.
So as you can see I do not see what you see, that Jesus is calling himself God. He is saying he is the Son of his God AJ, nothing more nothing less. This is the context and the message Jesus is conveying to the Pharisees.
And more importantly by deduction of this scripture, for anyone reading it, if you do not possess the Spirit of God, of the Father within you, then you cannot genuinely say that Jesus is the Son of God and your Father is God who brought him into the world.
This is the big take-away here AJ and it's HUGE!
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Jesus makes statements all over the NT that He is God. He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8
[8]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
The word translated "Almighty" is this.
Greek: παντοκράτωρ
Transliteration: pantokratōr
Pronunciation: pan-tok-rat'-ore
Definition: From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling that is God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty Omnipotent.
KJV Usage: Almighty (9x), omnipotent (1x).
Occurs: 10
In verses: 10
Who of us, or what mere man is omnipotent, absolute and universal sovereign, the all-ruling that is God? Who else can be described in this way but God?
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AJ are you seriously 100% sure of your answer? Have you read the context surrounding this verse?
Pulling out a scripture verse and stamping it Jesus is God or whatever you want it to say, in lights, is easy to do. I would not be satisfied until I can prove it to myself with some 'beef' to show or explain the logic behind this bold statement?
Yes Yahshua a few verses on (Rev 1:17) is called 'the first and the last' for a very good reason. And even further in this Book he is also called 'the Alpha and Omega" for another good reason, and not the LORD God Almighty for obvious reasons.
The verse of Revelation 1:8 is reserved solely for the Father of Yahshua only, and for a good reason.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)
The front end or the beginning book end or compliment to verse 1:8 are verses 1:4 and 5
Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God. (NIV)
Isn't it obvious that we are addressing here first, the LORD God Almighty AND then his Son Jesus Christ in the process of introductions? Christ is noted as the faithful witness to these events only in this introduction as the first born ....etc.
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