Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Grailhunter]

i dont know if this is a compliment or complaint. I get told on here often, you definitely arent the first, that im not the avg calvinist, and that confuses me. Calvinism is calvinism is calvinism.

Let me explain....LOL....First off I have never implied that you are a bad person. Secondly, how knowledgeable are you of the John Calvin and his doctrines? I would say you are above average. Then as it is, that is a hit on you. You should be able to see the evil there.

As far as other Calvinists....now a days, everybody has their own opinions. Belief control in the pews is a pipe dream, it does not matter if it is Calvinists, Baptists, or Pentecostals.

Most Calvinist preachers are not going to tell the truth and explain the implications.....and most of the people in the pews are not going to believe they are robots and live in a world that is a predestined play.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

..where do you get Jesus learned the "obedience of trust?"
Bearing in mind His human side yet at the same time God?
J.

When He became human, He could do nothing of Himself but had to rely on and trust God for everything, even food!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I could not wait for everyone to leave (people are bustle and exhaustion!) so I could ask you a question @Lambano. But I cannot find the post I wanted. I think you said: faith is not just trust? Or…faith is more than just trust? I wanted to ask you to expound on that because I don’t understand.

 

[Johann]

I could not wait for everyone to leave (people are bustle and exhaustion!) so I could ask you a question @Lambano. But I cannot find the post I wanted. I think you said: faith is not just trust? Or…faith is more than just trust? I wanted to ask you to expound on that because I don’t understand.

πίστις, πίστεως, ἡ (πείθω (which see)), from (Hesiod, Theognis, Pindar), Aeschylus, Herodotus down; the Sept. for אֱמוּנָה, several times for אֱמֶת and אֲמָנָה; faith; i. e.:
1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief (Plato, Polybius, Josephus, Plutarch; θαυμάσια καί μείζω πίστεως, Diodorus 1, 86); in the N. T. of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it: Hebrews 11:1 (where πίστις is called ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων); opposed to εἶδος, 2 Corinthians 5:7; joined with ἀγάπη and ἐλπίς, 1 Corinthians 13:13.

a. when it relates to God, πίστις is "the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ": Hebrews 11:6; Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 13:7; πίστις ἐπί Θεόν, Hebrews 6:1; ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν ἡ πρός τόν Θεόν, by which ye turned to God, 1 Thessalonians 1:8; τήν πίστιν ὑμῶν καί ἐλπίδα εἰς Θεόν, directed unto God, 1 Peter 1:21; with a genitive of the object (faith in) (τῶν θεῶν, Euripides, Med. 414; τοῦ Θεοῦ, Josephus, contra Apion 2, 16, 5; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap. vi., 17f, p. 132; (cf. Meyer on Romans 3:22; also Meyer, Ellicott, Lightfoot on Col. as below; Winer's Grammar, 186 (175))): ἡ πίστις τῆς ἐνεργείας τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἐγείραντος αὐτόν (Christ) ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, Colossians 2:12; διά πίστεως, by the help of faith, Hebrews 11:33, 39; κατά πίστιν, equivalent to πιστεύοντες, Hebrews 11:13; πίστει, dative of means or of mode by faith or by believing, prompted, actuated, by faith, Hebrews 11:3f, 7-9, 17, 20-24, 27-29, 31; dative of cause, because of faith, Hebrews 11:5, 11, 30.

b. in reference to Christ, it denotes "a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God" (on this see more at length in πιστεύω, 1 b. γ.); α. universally: with the genitive of the object (see above, in a.), Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 3:12; Ἰησοῦ, Revelation 14:12; Χρσιτου, Philippians 3:9; τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 2:20; τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, James 2:1; μου (i. e. in Christ), Revelation 2:13 (certainly we must reject the interpretation, faith in God of which Jesus Christ is the author, advocated by Van Hengel, Ep. ad Romans 1, p. 314ff, and H. P. Berlage, Disquisitio de formulae Paulinae ψιτις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ signifieatione. Lugd. Bat. 1856); τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, Philippians 1:27; ἀληθείας, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, with prepositions: εἰς (toward (cf. εἰς, B. II. 2 a.)) τόν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν, Acts 20:21; εἰς Χριστόν, Acts 24:24; Acts 26:18; ἡ εἰς Χριστόν πίστις ὑμῶν, Colossians 2:5; (πίστιν ἔχειν εἰς ἐμέ, Mark 9:42 Tr marginal reading); πρός τόν κύριον, Philemon 1:5 (L Tr WH εἰς) ((see πρός, L 1 c.; cf. Lightfoot at the passage); unless here we prefer to render πίστιν fidelity (see 2, below); cf. Meyer at the passage and Winer's Grammar, § 50, 2); ἐν πίστει τῇ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, reposed in Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 3:13; 2 Timothy 3:15; τήν πίστιν ὑμῶν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, Colossians 1:4; ἡ κατά τινα (see κατά, II. 1 e.) πίστις ἐν τῷ κυρίῳ, Ephesians 1:15; ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, Romans 3:25 (yet cf. Meyer). πίστις (cf. Winer's Grammar, 120 (114)) and ἡ πίστις simply: Luke 18:8; Acts 13:8; Acts 14:22, 27; Acts 15:9; Acts 17:31; Rom. ( (on which see νόμος, 3)), Romans 3:31; Romans 4:14; Romans 5:2 (L Tr WH brackets τῇ πίστει); ; 1 Cor. ( (here of a charism)); ; 2 Corinthians 4:13; (); ; Galatians 3:14, 23, 25; Galatians 5:5; Galatians 6:10; Ephesians 2:8; Ephesians 3:17; Ephesians 4:5; Ephesians 6:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 1:2, 4 (on the latter passive, see οἰκονομία), ; (on which see ἀλήθεια, I. 2 c.); ; 2 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:18; 2 Timothy 3:8, 10; 2 Timothy 4:7; Titus 1:1, 4, 13; Titus 2:2; Titus 3:15; James 2:5; 1 Peter 1:5; 2 Peter 1:1, 5. with a genitive of the subject: Luke 22:32; Romans 1:8, 12; 1 Corinthians 2:5; 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17; 2 Corinthians 1:24; Philippians 1:25; Philippians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 5-7, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:2; Philemon 1:6; James 1:3; 1 Peter 1:7, 9 (here WH omits the genitive); 1 John 5:4; Revelation 13:10; πλήρης πιστέω καί πνεύματος, Acts 6:5; πνεύματος καί πίστεως, Acts 11:24; πίστεως καί δυνάμεως, Acts 6:8 Rec.; τῇ πίστει ἑστηκεναι, Romans 11:20; 2 Corinthians 1:24; ἐν τῇ πίστει στήκειν, 1 Corinthians 16:13; εἶναι, 2 Corinthians 13:5; μένειν, 1 Timothy 2:15; ἐμμένειν τῇ πίστει, Acts 14:22; ἐπιμένειν, Colossians 1:23; στερεοί τῇ πίστει, 1 Peter 5:9; ἐστερεοῦντο τῇ πίστει, Acts 16:5; βεβαιοῦμαι ἐν (L T Tr WH omit ἐν) τῇ πίστει, Colossians 2:7. Since faith is a power that seizes upon the soul, one who yields himself to it is said ὑπακούειν τῇ πίστει, Acts 6:7; hence, ὑπακοή τῆς πίστεως, obedience rendered to faith (Winer's Grammar, 186 (175)), Romans 1:5; Romans 16:26; ὁ ἐκ πίστεως namely, ὤν, depending on faith, equivalent to πιστεύων (see ἐκ, II. 7), Romans 3:26; plural, Galatians 3:7, 9; ὁ ἐκ πίστεως Ἀβραάμ, he who has the same faith as Abraham, Romans 4:16; ἐκ πίστεως εἶναι, to be related, akin to, faith (cf. ἐκ, as above), Galatians 3:12. δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως, Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; δικαιοσύνην δέ τήν ἐκ πίστεως, Romans 9:30; ἡ ... ἐκ πιστηως δικαιοσύνη, Romans 10:6; δικαιοσύνη ... ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν, springing from faith (and availing) to (arouse) faith (in those who as yet have it not), Romans 1:17; δικαιοσύνη ἡ διά πίστεως Χριστοῦ, ... ἡ ἐκ Θεοῦ δικαιοσύνη ἐπί τῇ πίστει, Philippians 3:9; passive, δικαιοῦσθαι πίστει, Romans 3:28; δικαιοῦν τινα διά πίστεως Χριστοῦ, Galatians 2:16; διά τῆς πίστεως, Romans 3:30; δικαιοῦσθαι τινα ἐκ πίστεως, ibid.; Galatians 3:8; passive, Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24; εὐαγγελίζομαι τήν πίστιν, to proclaim the glad tidings of faith in Christ, Galatians 1:23; ἀκοή πίστεως, instruction concerning the necessity of faith (see ἀκοή, 3 a.), Galatians 3:2, 5; ἡ πίστις is joined with ἡ ἀγάπη: 1 Thessalonians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; 1 Timothy 1:14; 1 Timothy 2:15; 1 Timothy 4:12; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22; with a subjunctive genitive Revelation 2:19; πίστις δἰ ἀγάπης ἐνεργουμένη, Galatians 5:6; ἀγάπη μετά πίστεως, Ephesians 6:23; ἀγάπη ἐκ πίστεως ἀνυποκρίτου, 1 Timothy 1:5; πίστις καί ἀγάπη ἡ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 2 Timothy 1:13; φιλεῖν τινα πίστει, Titus 3:15 (where see DeWette); ἔργον πίστεως (cf. ἔργον, 3, p. 248{b} near the bottom), 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:11. β. in an ethical sense, persuasion or conviction (which springs from faith in Christ as the sole author of salvation; cf. πιστεύω, 1 b. γ. at the end) concerning things lawful for a Christian: Romans 14:1, 23; πίστιν ἔχειν, Romans 14:22.

c. universally, the religious belief of Christians; α. subjectively: Ephesians 4:13, where cf. Meyer; in the sense of a mere acknowledgment of divine things and of the claims of Christianity, James 2:14, 17f, 20, 22, 24, 26. β. objectively, the substance of Christian faith or what is believed by Christians: τῇ ἅπαξ παραδοθείσῃ ... πίστει Jude 1:3; ἡ ἁγιωτάτῃ ὑμῶν πίστις, Jude 1:20. There are some who think this meaning of the word is to be recognized also in 1 Timothy 1:4, 19; 1 Timothy 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:1, 6; 1 Timothy 5:8; 1 Timothy 6:10, 21 (cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 468 (English translation, ii., p. 200)); but Weiss (Biblical Theol. d. N. T. § 107 a. note) correctly objects, "πίστις is rather the form in which the truth (as the substance of right doctrine) is subjectively appropriated"; (cf. Meyer on Romans 1:5 (and Prof. Dwight's additional note); Ellicott on Galatians 1:23; Lightfoot on Galatians, p. 157).

d. with the predominant idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same: Matthew 8:10; Matthew 15:28; Luke 7:9, 50; Luke 17:5; Hebrews 9:28; Lachmann's stereotyped edition; Hebrews 10:22; James 1:6; with a genitive of the subject: Matthew 9:2, 22, 29; Matthew 15:28; Mark 2:5; Mark 5:34; Mark 10:52; (Luke 5:20); ; with a genitive of the object in which trust is placed: τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ, Acts 3:16; πίστιν ἔχειν (Matthew 17:20); ; Mark 4:40; Luke 17:6; πᾶσαν τήν πίστιν (`all the faith' that can be thought of), 1 Corinthians 13:2; ἔχειν πίστιν Θεοῦ, to trust in God, Mark 11:22; ἔχειν πίστιν τοῦ σωθῆναι, to be healed (see Fritzsche on Matthew, p. 843f; (cf. Winers Grammar, § 44,4{a}; Buttmann, 268 (230))), Acts 14:9; ἡ πίστις δἰ αὐτοῦ, awakened through him, Acts 3:16; εὐχή τῆς πίστεως, that proceeds from faith, James 5:15; of trust in the promises of God, Romans 4:9, 16, 19; Hebrews 4:2; Hebrews 6:12; Hebrews 10:38f; with a genitive of the subject, Romans 4:5, 12; πίστις ἐπί Θεόν, faith which relies on God who grants the forgiveness of sins to the penitent (see ἐπί, C. I. 2 g. α.), Hebrews 6:1; δικαιοσύνη τῆς πίστεως (cf. Winer's Grammar, 186 (175)), Romans 4:11, 13; ἡ κατά πίστιν δικαιοσύνη, Hebrews 11:7.

2. fidelity, faithfulness, i. e. the character of one who can be relied on: Matthew 23:23;

Hope this is helpful
J.

 

[Johann]

I could not wait for everyone to leave (people are bustle and exhaustion!) so I could ask you a question @Lambano. But I cannot find the post I wanted. I think you said: faith is not just trust? Or…faith is more than just trust? I wanted to ask you to expound on that because I don’t understand.

G3982 πείθω peitho (pei'-thō) v.
1. to persuade or convince (by argument, true or false).
2. (passively) to be convinced of (evidence or authority).
3. (reflexively) to have confidence.
4. (by extension) to comply with (authority or evidence), meaning to agree with or assent to and act upon.
5. (transitively) to rely on or trust in (by inward certainty).
6. (reflexively) to have reliance.
7. (by analogy) to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means).
8. (consequently) to reassure.
[a primary verb]
KJV: agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield
Compare: G4100, G4104, G1679
See also: G3981, G2138, G4006

Would you say trust and faith is the same/interchangeably?
J.

 

[BarneyFife]

No…it doesn’t mean that. It just means I found no help in an actual church. I only found someone always teaching that all the miracles did not literally happen or godly ways to grow money or…that if I wanted to come back I was welcome as long as I wore a dress or…very political messages, etc., with the people all nodding their heads in agreement. In one, I actually watched two women screaming at each other over flowers and everyone, including the pastor, silent and looking defeated, refusing to stop it.

I've honestly seen that stuff at my church over the years, except for the non-miraculous miracle business (but who knows what you'll hear next?).

I've found that it doesn't profit me anything to go to church expecting things of men, even from the sermon, at least, as far as the preacher's intent goes (which is often the way it's supposed to be, btw). This was a long, hard lesson for me to learn.

God seems to indicate that there is a blessing waiting for those who forsake not the assembling of themselves together, with the condition of perfect trust in that indication. I have left at the end of many a worship service, suspecting that I might well have been the only person to have received a blessing from it. It is a spiritual discipline, to be sure, but I have found it to be worth the sweat and tears required to cultivate it, and my heart aches for those whom the devil harasses so that they are not able to avail themselves of the experience so necessary to buoy up our trust.

This is in no way meant to be a reproof or correction, but instead a lamentation and, hopefully, an encouragement to keep your mind and heart open to the possibility that God would HEAL your injury at the hands of hypocrites and eventually lead you to a church that can use your extraordinary gifts and, thereby, give you the blessing of a sense of ecclesiastical (big word, I know) belonging, to His love and glory.

 

[Johann]

God seems to indicate that there is a blessing waiting for those who forsake not the assembling of themselves together, with the condition of perfect trust in that indication.

I knew somehow this is going to be quoted Barn' ..do not neglect the gathering of the saints..problem is, like @stunnedbygrace I was deeply wounded by Pentecostal-ism most of my young life and left the ekklesia.
what now?
J.

 

[Johann]

Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

..where do you get Jesus learned the "obedience of trust?"
Bearing in mind His human side yet at the same time God?
J.

Faith and trust have similar meanings, and often people will use the words interchangeably. Even Merriam-Webster defines faith as “belief and trust in and loyalty to God.” For most people there is no practical difference between faith and trust; to them, the two are synonymous. Any differences that exist are very fine.

One difference is simply grammatical. Trust can be either a noun or a verb, depending on context. As a noun, trust means “assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something”; as a verb, it means “to rely on the truthfulness or accuracy of,” “to believe,” “to commit or place in one’s care,” or “to place confidence.” Faith is always a noun (except in cases of its archaic use as a verb).

In Scripture, faith is defined as “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). In other words, faith involves trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove. Faith is inseparable from trust; it’s the confidence that God can and will do what He says in His Word. Faith includes both intellectual assent to something and trust in it. So we believe something to be true, and we also place our trust in it—we rely on it. Faith recognizes that a chair is designed to support the person who sits on it, and trust demonstrates the faith by actually sitting in the chair.

Faith without trust is not faith. Belief without reliance is empty. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ, but knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires trust in—a commitment to—the facts.

An example of the relationship between faith and trust is a trust-fall. You have faith that your friends will catch you even though your back is turned to them. You believe they will not let you hit the ground. The act of falling—as the name of the exercise implies—is trust. You demonstrate the faith you have in your friends. Trust in God is a core aspect of biblical faith.

From GotQuestions.
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is in no way meant to be a reproof or correction, but instead a lamentation and, hopefully, an encouragement to keep your mind and heart open to the possibility that God would HEAL your injury at the hands of hypocrites and eventually lead you to a church that can use your extraordinary gifts and, thereby, give you the blessing of a sense of ecclesiastical (big word, I know) belonging, to His love and glory.

I think…I have been healed of my injuries. Those churches I went to did not injure me. I ran from them, so they couldn’t injure me. My parents and family injured me. Growing up in and being taught in the entire useless way of life of my parents injured me. That they could not love me injured me. (They said they did, but that is not love, the way the world loves.) It’s all facade and pretend and pain.

Part of healing was seeing I am no different. That was when real and lasting healing came to me. When I saw that everyone had been born into and had suffered in that same futile and useless way of life and developed the same protective shell to inure against the pain and wounds, that we ALL were hypocrites - that was when I saw the truth to begin healing and stop hating and warring with every other. I had sympathy and mourning for us all rather than hatred and resentments for us all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

G3982 πείθω peitho (pei'-thō) v.
1. to persuade or convince (by argument, true or false).
2. (passively) to be convinced of (evidence or authority).
3. (reflexively) to have confidence.
4. (by extension) to comply with (authority or evidence), meaning to agree with or assent to and act upon.
5. (transitively) to rely on or trust in (by inward certainty).
6. (reflexively) to have reliance.
7. (by analogy) to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means).
8. (consequently) to reassure.
[a primary verb]
KJV: agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield
Compare: G4100, G4104, G1679
See also: G3981, G2138, G4006

Would you say trust and faith is the same/interchangeably?
J.

Yes, I would say it’s interchangeable. So I wondered what Lambano meant when he said faith is more than just trust. I was calling bull, but in a nice way. :) I hope he would love me enough to call bull on me too if he thought I was saying something I had not thought out to come to that might tangle me for no good reason.

 

[BarneyFife]

But yet they crossed the Red Sea.

By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. (Hebrews 11:31)

Did she have the Holy Spirit?

Well, the dispensationalist in us makes us want to say no, but since I don't have a dispensational bone in my body, I say yes.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think…I have been healed of my injuries. Those churches I went to did not injure me. I ran from them, so they couldn’t injure me. My parents and family injured me. Growing up in and being taught in the entire useless way of life of my parents injured me. That they could not love me injured me. (They said they did, but that is not love, the way the world loves.) It’s all facade and pretend and pain.

Part of healing was seeing I am no different. That was when real and lasting healing came to me. When I saw that everyone had been born into and had suffered in that same futile and useless way of life and developed the same protective shell to inure against the pain and wounds, that we ALL were hypocrites - that was when I saw the truth to begin healing and stop hating and warring with every other. I had sympathy and mourning for us all rather than hatred and resentments for us all.

We are all broken—that is for sure. Jesus is the Quintessential Repairman, Praise God?

 

[Johann]

Yes, I would say it’s interchangeable. So I wondered what Lambano meant when he said faith is more than just trust. I was calling bull, but in a nice way. :) I hope he would love me enough to call bull on me too if he thought I was saying something I had not thought out to come to that might tangle me for no good reason.

What study resources are you using besides the Bible?
You could be a fine apologist with the right training sister...don't be afraid of the face of man, we are all fallible and I have the feeling I'm on "ignore" by most here.
What I admired from livelongsinner is that he used scriptures, the others philosophizing and he took a lot of "low blows" but still standing.
J.

 

[BarneyFife]

and again, you dont understand the spirit of scripture. We have NOTHING, i cant emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with getting saved. God has already chosen who will be saved, and no amount of groveling can save you if you are not of the elect.

Keep it up; maybe you'll convince someone to become hopeless and desperate. Or, perhaps, maybe people will realize that since you claim you are wicked, you, therefore, are the one who doesn't understand and cannot be trusted to teach, according to Daniel 12:10. You could also repent and believe in Christ for the remission of sins of your own volition. Otherwise, why should anyone believe what you teach?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think…I have been healed of my injuries. Those churches I went to did not injure me. I ran from them, so they couldn’t injure me. My parents and family injured me. Growing up in and being taught in the entire useless way of life of my parents injured me. That they could not love me injured me. (They said they did, but that is not love, the way the world loves.) It’s all facade and pretend and pain.

Part of healing was seeing I am no different. That was when real and lasting healing came to me. When I saw that everyone had been born into and had suffered in that same futile and useless way of life and developed the same protective shell to inure against the pain and wounds, that we ALL were hypocrites - that was when I saw the truth to begin healing and stop hating and warring with every other. I had sympathy and mourning for us all rather than hatred and resentments for us all.

And I feel like this ties in to the above. I had to think very hard when LLS said Calvinism is the only branch of theology that teaches a man how depraved he is. I thought, If they stopped at that, they would not be so odious. But to then leave a man in that and tell him God is not willing to save and heal him is where they refuse a man entrance into the Kingdom. They compass land and sea to do this to a man and teach him to go out and teach it to other men. And if they convince him to the point where no pinpoint of hope remains and the man realizes that it means there’s no reason to live the rest of his life here and that to kill himself will be the only relief or him, they will be held responsible for the mans blood and God will be more merciful to the man they did that to than He will be to them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What study resources are you using besides the Bible?
You could be a fine apologist with the right training sister...don't be afraid of the face of man, we are all fallible and I have the feeling I'm on "ignore" by most here.
What I admired from livelongsinner is that he used scriptures, the others philosophizing and he took a lot of "low blows" but still standing.
J.

I don’t use study resources. I very rarely look up Greek or Hebrew, although I do like to hear from other men who do. I used my concordance once to do a word study on the beginning of Genesis and it seems to have been enough, along with scripture and the Teacher, to satisfy my questions. Theology and study helps are not the way He way He chose to teach me, which seems odd because I was always good at my studies.

 

[BarneyFife]

And I feel like this ties in to the above. I had to think very hard when LLS said Calvinism is the only branch of theology that teaches a man how depraved he is. I thought, If they stopped at that, they would not be so odious. But to then leave a man in that and tell him God is not willing to save and heal him is where they refuse a man entrance into the Kingdom. They compass land and sea to do this to a man and teach him to go out and teach it to other men. And if they convince him to the point where no pinpoint of hope remains and the man realizes that it means there’s no reason to live the rest of his life here and that to kill himself will be the only relief or him, they will be held responsible for the mans blood and God will be more merciful to the man they did that to than He will be to them.

Problem is, there's no relief in eternal torment, which is what most Calvinists believe.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, I would say it’s interchangeable. So I wondered what Lambano meant when he said faith is more than just trust. I was calling bull, but in a nice way. :) I hope he would love me enough to call bull on me too if he thought I was saying something I had not thought out to come to that might tangle me for no good reason.

I'm calling bull, not because I believe you haven't thought something out, but because I believe you just might have overthought it. Faith is simple, and there are languages that have only one word for both faith and trust. I say that only because I know that English is one of (if not) the most bloated languages in the world, and that the devil will exploit anything he can get his hands on. We westerners love to argue, and semantics are our friends.

The devil doesn't want us to know what faith is, and he's much smarter and resourceful than we are and we don't pray enough for God to justly enable us to overcome his wiles. I'm just speaking in general, of course. Not at anyone, in particular. I've heard many defining statements and even length treatises on faith on many discussion platforms that are just so hollow that I can barely hold back the tears. All this pleases the enemy. I think I'm going to start two Bible Study threads (not debate threads - lol- like that's gonna be manageable), one on church and one on faith—not because I'm an expert on either, but because it seems like good subjects to focus on at this time. I hate to start more than one thread at a time, but it just seems appropriate right now.
:cool:

 

[BarneyFife]

I knew somehow this is going to be quoted Barn' ..do not neglect the gathering of the saints..problem is, like @stunnedbygrace I was deeply wounded by Pentecostal-ism most of my young life and left the ekklesia.
what now?
J.

I'm working on this problem, my friend. I'm getting swamped with notifications. lol

To be honest, I have no idea what the ecclesiastical landscape of South Africa is like. I could just point you to the nearest Seventh-day Adventist church, but I'm sure you don't need that kind of trauma in your walk with the Lord right now. (Although you would be quite safe from charismatic elements, I'll warrant you. lol) You'll need lots of time in prayer about it, I would imagine. If your heart is not prepared and you're not convinced God wants you in church right now, just storming some unknown sanctuary will only spook you away.

There is no substitute for heart preparation in facing church attendance. I'm sure that's been your experience as well.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Does Reformed1869 know this? He might take it as a challenge.

Reformed1689 is a serious calvinist as well. Smart people like him are the motivation for me to study calvin as much as i do, to keep up with him.