Thank you for responding, stunnedbygrace. I'm going to break what you say into two parts and respond to each in kind:
I can try to elaborate, yes. This was the part that made me say you went to the opposite extreme.
one man says he is saved because he agreed with a plan. He chose.
Another man says he is saved because God decided he was and gave him no choice.
The first man is saying his choice saved him. He is saying, I chose life with my very own free will and another man chose death.
The second man is saying God chose him and makes him to choose correctly.
Okay, so, what I think I'm understanding (correct me if I am mistaken) is that the bolded parts of the two dichotomies above are what you are attributing to me (I realize that they are not two different dichotomies, that the second is basically a restatement of the first). And, with all due respect, both are falsely attributed to me. I'm quite sure these false attributions are unintentional ~ they are not deliberate misrepresentations of what I have said, so I am not accusing you in any way of dishonesty ~ but still, both are false, specifically, the "gave him no choice" in the first dichotomy above and the "makes him choose correctly" in the second. I get that both represent your honest takes on what I have said, and I can certainly understand why ~ if I really had said what you say I said (that's a bit of a mouthful)... :) ~ that would prompt you to say what you said about the "opposite extreme" and why you would react negatively to that, but I would and surely do disavow both.
God has said, you did not choose me, I chose you. But He has also said, I put before you death or life, choose life, why should you die?
Absolutely. So I would be very interested in hearing how you resolve those two seemingly ~
seemingly ~ mutually exclusive things. Maybe you were thinking of the following two passages specifically, but here are two passages in scripture that affirm both of the things you have said here:
- God has said, you did not choose me, I chose you. ~ "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (Jesus, John 15:16)
- I put before you death or life, choose life, why should you die? ~ "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying His voice and holding fast to Him, for He is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." (Moses, in relating the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb, Deuteronomy 30:19-20)
A lot of very intelligent people think both of those cannot be true at the same time, that one makes the other false. But I think you and I would both say ~ I know I would... :) ~ that both
can be true at the same time and most certainly
are. And to add a couple of other passages of Scripture, both statements by the same man that show the same seeming mutual exclusiveness as above, but both of which likewise are absolutely true and cannot be soft-pedalled in any way:
- "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." (Paul, Philippians 2:12)
- "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Paul, Romans 9:6-18)
And one more... sorry:
- "I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules." (Ezekiel 36:24-29)
So each man takes one thing God has said while ignoring the other thing God has said. Each man goes to one extreme and shoots at the other.
Yeah so again, not the case, at least regarding me. I would absolutely affirm both "extremes" ~ because God, in His Word, does. Again, certainly, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you agree.
But to have the balance, you must be able to say, yes, but God has also said… Otherwise, you end up crooked.
Sure. Absolutely. And this is exactly what I have said. So again, I would be interested in hearing your understanding of how the seeming mutual exclusiveness of the two passages above is resolved. How do you strike that balance?
Grace and peace to you.
