For example, I guess you think there weren't actual bowls of incense. But I ask you, why not? Why not accept it the way it's written?
Much love!
Let's discuss..cessation after death?
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For example, I guess you think there weren't actual bowls of incense. But I ask you, why not? Why not accept it the way it's written?
Much love!
The Disciple John
Member
The Disciple John
Member
What The circle ended?
I'll pass. I believe in fairness. You don't think this is a circle right. Why... because it's coming from you?
No . . . it's a circle. We are both repeating the same things. Sometimes my "stopping distance" is a little long . . .
Sigh!
But we can put it to rest friendly-like!
:)
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
The Disciple John
Member
With you leaving two important questions unanswered? :)
What would Jesus do in a case like that? I'm not Jesus, but I like to consider his example.
When he asked a question, and those questioned didn't answer, the reason was clear to both. How did he view the response?
Like I said, I anticipated the kind of response I got. There is a reason you didn't answer. You know the reason, and I leave that with you. As long as we have that understanding, we can just leave it at that.
That's how it goes. Mark 11:27-12:12
...and remember the golden rule. :)
The Disciple John
Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Torment is before in Hades awaiting the final judgment, to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and incinerated in a hot minute. Then you don't exist anymore.
How can an eternal torture chamber (as many presume) glorify God. Some of these reprobates have sinned as little as a decade or so and they are judged for eternity? Even a lifetime of sinning does not warrant unending torment. That isn't fair justice. I don't expect to convince anyone that has held the traditional view.
"For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deuteronomy 32:22
In the end times, before the Millennial Kingdom, fire from beneath the crust of the earth surfaces and sets the earth on fire. This is the key to the locale of Hell - on earth! This also correlates with the Fifth Trumpet: "He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Rev. 9:3 This is a super-volcanic eruption scenario causing a worldwide earthquake and cracks open a fissure in the earth, a passage to the Abyss. it releases not only massive amounts of fire, brimstone and smoke but also demonic locusts that sting and torture those who have the mark of the beast for five months. This is part one of Hell on earth. Inhabitants of the earth fall and are thrown into this firey pit which has likely formed lava lakes:
"Terror and pit and snare confront you, O inhabitant of the earth. Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in a snare; For the windowns above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake. The earth is broken asundeer, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently, the earth reels to and from like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it and it will fall, never to rise again. So it will happen in that day, that the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high, and the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gather together like prisoners in a dungeon and will be confined in prison; and after many days they will be punihsed."Isaiah 24:17-22
Let's put to rest that Hades is some spiritual place, it is within the earth. People fall into this pit during the Great Tribulation.
"May burning coals fall upon them; May they be cast into the fire, into deept pits from which they cannot rise." Psalm 140:10
The Bottomless Pit is not symbolic! It is likely a giant cavern in the center of the earth. If you could drill a hole through the earth and drop a ball it would reach the center of gravity, go back and forth until it was suspended in air. If you had a camera attached, you would see ceiling all around, no bottom. Actually the Great Syria/African Rift that travels from Syria to Mozambique and goes right through the Sea of Galilee, the Dead Sea and beyond has a history of volcanic activity. Sodom and Gomorrah lied on the shore of the Dead Sea and it was incinerated and swollowed by the earth. Korah and his family were swallowed by the earth accompanied by fire as well.
So after the MK the 2 Peter 3:10 scenario destroys everything, the event is the final Judgment, then the new heaven and new earth appear.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I was replying to Mark's quote from you containing Rev. 5:8. :)
The Disciple John
Member
Ah. Understood. I was just unnecessarily adding. ;) Carry on. :)
There was a literal altar of incense in the tabernacle, then the temple, and it was made after the pattern of the heavenly things shown to Moses.
Just like there is an heavenly temple, and the ark of the covenant. These things on earth were made to be exact matches to the heavenly things. Should we suppose there were no / are no heavenly things? The angel casts his censor to the earth. Why is that? Why write that? Why do that?
When I read these things, I ask myself, what is the point of the pageanty? Because God can just cause the final result to happen, He doesn't need all this stuff. He could just call it quits on the earth, and in the next moment, the redeemed are all in a new creation, and the unredeemed have whatever happens to them.
But He writes it all out for us like this, with all of this, for lack of a better word, pageantry.
My thinking is that this is how He want's us to think about these things. That there is a benefit in our minds, our spirituality, to think of an actual slain lamb before an actual throne, with someone on that throne that lives in unapproachable light. And I think there really IS a throne. I figure also that there is a real heavenly temple, and real bowls of incense which are prayers, and real locusts from the abyss, and so on.
Much love!
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Matthew 25:46 KJV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment AKA torment; but the righteous into life eternal.
Much love!
Don't presume too much . . . it can be leading yourself down a garden path, as it were. There are many reasons for things, and for a question unintentionally unanswered, and for a question intentionally unanswered.
And lest you make too much of this, just to say, at 5 pm my time I'm signing off, likely until Monday, when I will again have internet access.
Much love!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
One can only believe that a person continues to exist when separated completely from the only source of life, of that person had his own personal life source, ie. Innate immortality. If however we do have innate immortality, and can continue to suffer/living in death, (separation) then why is eternal life necessarily offered as a gift to those who love and know their God? Wouldn't it be innate with them also?
Again, we need the correct definitions of life and death. Eternal life is not living forever, that is something completely different, though eternal life doesn't end. Eternal life is having relationship with God. You exist, as a creation of God, and you have relationship with Him, that is eternal life.
People are alive here on the earth now that do not have eternal life. They never will have eternal life. Yet after their life here is over, they will none the less, though dead, stand before God's throne and be judged.
Much love!
[Q
Oh my mind is in a furious uproar! I see some faint connection when I think of people and how they hide their true selves behind facades and fear being seen for the fraud that they deep down feel themselves to be. There is nothing more fearsome than to be “caught.” It’s so hated that even when a persons face shows anger or disdain, if you speak plainly and openly with them and say, I’ve obviously made you angry, they will reply, no, I’m not angry at all. But you know they are because you happened to be looking straight at them when a blush appeared on their face and the pulse point on their neck began beating faster and a rage broke the surface of the facade for two or three seconds before they could pull it back under. No one can control that. We even have laws that give consideration for murder “in the heat of the moment.”
God called Cain on this very thing, didn’t He…? Why are you so angry? Why is your face downcast?
I saw some…connection between this and Adam hiding because he…pfft, it’s gone.
Oh my mind is in a furious uproar! I see some faint connection when I think of people and how they hide their true selves behind facades and fear being seen for the fraud that they deep down feel themselves to be. There is nothing more fearsome than to be “caught.” It’s so hated that even when a persons face shows anger or disdain, if you speak plainly and openly with them and say, I’ve obviously made you angry, they will reply, no, I’m not angry at all. But you know they are because you happened to be looking straight at them when a blush appeared on their face and the pulse point on their neck began beating faster and a rage broke the surface of the facade for two or three seconds before they could pull it back under. No one can control that. We even have laws that give consideration for murder “in the heat of the moment.”
God called Cain on this very thing, didn’t He…? Why are you so angry? Why is your face downcast?
I saw some…connection between this and Adam hiding because he…pfft, it’s gone.
why not both? Although I can’t grasp figurative so much as…spiritually/eternally. I’ve heard an accurate translation is “ on the day you eat of it, dying you will die.” (Or some approximation.) That reads to me as saying…on the day you eat of it, you will be doubly dead.
And other verses allude to this. Like…let the dead bury their dead.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Romans 7:6 KJV
[6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Revelation 20:13 KJV
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
What if this has already happened?
Maybe…what other meaning do you see? When you read, “why is your faith so little?” What do you see?
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