Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[Johann]

The Biggest error of Protestantism

...is that they ruin most of my young life..
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

People who have eternal life, sealed with the Holy Spirit, justified, sanctified..can be cast into the lake of fire?...or did I misunderstand you since you are not "working" with the scriptures?
J.

Yes, you misunderstood. I don’t think the lake of fire and the outer darkness are the same place. Hell is cast into the lake of fire in the end but…it doesn’t say the outer darkness is cast there.

 

[marks]

The prospect of final punishment was never meant to be the primary motive for loving God with all the strength, heart, and mind.

This is true, but just the same, "some save with fear . . ."

Much love!

 

[Johann]

sainthood for the elect.

Here I agree, few will be saved then there is the elect and remnant..but I don't want to deviate.
Shalom
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We're all running in the same race, some make it to the finish line some don't. some win the crown, some don't. Nowadays people hate this because the inclusivity mentality has taken over and the participation trophy. The Biggest error of Protestantism is to say all believers are saints, I say only those who have made their election and calling sure and have run that race are the saints, the rest are counted among the faithful. salvation is for all, sainthood for the elect.... that is how I have come to nullify the Arminian Calvinist divide in the church. When this is rightly understood, it keeps you running the race while resting in His promises and not on your a** (The Doctrine of rest at work in your life).

Not making a distinction between what is holy and what is not, a huge hindrance to us.

 

[marks]

What is death?

That's the key question. How do you answer?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is true, but just the same, "some save with fear . . ."

Much love!

Your own fear is meant there…

 

[marks]

We are told in so many words that the agencies of "worm" and "fire" are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies.

From my understanding, I think this came from the Targum of Jonathan, if I remember rightly, the Hebrew idea of "the worm" there is "that which remains of a man whom God has destroyed".

Jesus, from the cross, "but I am a worm, and not a man". (Psalm 22)

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have to go back and see what I might have missed. Got fast in here, lol.

 

[Johann]

Like any tool it can be used for good or to murder someone (Think an axe here)

Yeah, bullets for bullets, since our warfare is not against flesh and blood...we are shooting each other with "scripture" bullets.
I think the true ekklesia has gone underground, Satan and his minions don't have to do a thing since this world is doing a fine job as "believers" against "believers" are culling each other.
I think this forum should open a chat-room where people can at least see each other.
Blessings
J.

 

[marks]

Not even close, my friend. I would say at least half (or close to it) of the active membership believes in eternal torment. It's actually kind of odd that they're not showing up in droves. Maybe the subject is becoming tired for a while--that happens.

With so many churning through the same faulty arguments, copying from the same commentaries, indulging in the same personal comments . . . it's as slow day - aren't they all now? - so I'm reading through, there are little gems here and there, I try to add what I feel I maybe can, but who is actually going to hear a contrary argument and truly consider it?

I occasionally see a good point here and there. @David H. has, I think, given the most conclusive answer to the seemingly unanswerable question, was man made to live without end? Sin brought death. No sin, no death, man remains alive, without end. So Man was created to do that.

@Johann gave perhaps the best response to the statement of Ecclessiates, "a greater than Soloman is here".

For the most part, I think people tackle this subject from the wrong vantage point, using for the meaning of "death" cessation, which is not supportable from the Bible. Death is separation. This is the meaning that is true in every place the word appears.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, bullets for bullets, since our warfare is not against flesh and blood...we are shooting each other with "scripture" bullets.
I think the true ekklesia has gone underground, Satan and his minions don't have to do a thing since this world is doing a fine job as "believers" against "believers" are culling each other.
I think this forum should open a chat-room where people can at least see each other.
Blessings
J.

I see it more like one man takes some scriptures and jumps into a ditch and another man takes the scriptures that are in tension to his scriptures and jumps into the ditch on the other side of the road. But a rare unindoctrinated man walks in the middle of the road and manages to not fall in either ditch because he has understood the tension.

 

[marks]

Believe it or not, I don't like him and seldom watch movies.
Maybe change the picture?

I would. Is that really how you want to be seen, as that man's face?

Anyway, no skin of my nose . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Let’s start with the elephant in the room. Are men born with eternal life in them or is Jesus and being born again of the Spirit the only way to eternal life? If we take it all to its conclusion, yes, it is very uncomfortable, but not for those we think it’s uncomfortable for.

Would man have lived forever had not sin came in? Is that an uncomfortable question?



Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Would man have lived forever had not sin came in? Is that an uncomfortable question?



Much love!

Maybe. Adam was covered and he was innocent and he had not offended God. But he had not yet eaten from the tree of eternal life. God didn’t leave that option after he fell. But are we now talking about Adam who was created in Gods image or are we talking of Adams offspring after his fall who were born in adams image?

 

[marks]

So, for believers it will be "age-during"...wonder how long is that?
For unbelievers it would be "age-during" let me guess, final utter annihilation?
J.

This is what I feel is one of the stronger evidences for the eternal suffering of the wicked, that the exact same language is used to describe the eternal life of the righteous, and the eternal punishment of the wicked.

That it is eternal punishment is shown in Matthew 25,

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The word translated here Punishment is used one other time, "fear has torment". That is not destruction or a cessation of existence. In fact cessation of existence would render that Scripture false.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Much love
J.

Consistency, honesty, straightforward communication, these mean a lot to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is a good topic for several reasons.
1. Eternal Hell has always been a stumbling block for un believers. The common argument: "I can't believe in nor worship a God who would create an eternal torture chamber." That is a fair objection, an impossible task to overcome without the Grace of God.
2. Pastors avoid the topic, slip it in as a warning, a scare tactic to persuade, but just don't go into any depth. I had a great Pastor, gifted, educated and he didn't either.
I think a wrong approach to evangelism is to hit someone over the head with "You're gonna burn in Hell forever if you don't repent" as they throw condemning insults at them in a kind of a mean spirited way about all their sinful lives. Not a welcome loving introduction and I've witnessed it done like that. They are confounded why they have little effect. My Pastor used to say, start and end with Grace.
It is good to examine the nature of Hell.

I think looking at topics like this can challenge how we read the Bible, and how we "re-interpret it" in our minds. Like we read one thing, but by the time it hits our comprehension it's already something else more in keeping with our preferences or previous errors.

I feel like it's important to be able to come to any passage of Scripture "fresh", to just read it for what it says, and understand it all over again. I find sometimes that new understandings come as I find a word here or there that I've failed to give a full significant to. A topic like this, the reason we have different views is for that reason. We each find different parts that we feel make the most conclusive statements, but they are different, so we have different views. This is a reflection of our different hermeneutics.

So to me a key value of this sort of discussion is that we can reexamine our hermeneutical foundations, and make sure what we are thinking is what God is saying.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I would. Is that really how you want to be seen, as that man's face?

Anyway, no skin of my nose . . .

Much love!

I thought he chose the picture because of - Therefore I run in such a way as not to run aimlessly; I box in such a way, as to avoid hitting air;

 

[marks]

Yeah, politics is his forte
J.

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