Assurance of salvation.

[Eternally Grateful]

"Much is given... much is required" [from Luke 12:48]
If we do not use what God has given us, what reward should we expect? If we do not love God enough to strive to give Him our reasonable service, what should we expect?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-

We are talking about salvation, eternal life. the gift of God by grace through faith. so not sure what your trying to point brother

Salvation can not be earned. If you or I are expecting to earn salvation by , then we are in deep danger.

Saved or...?

Well according to a lot of people, a lot of people have been saved. I agree in a certain sense. Today I did not stumble on some things that I have stumbled on before and it was certainly God who 'saved' me, kept me that is, from so stumbling. However, if I later on stumble on one of those same things from which I was saved today the salvation was incomplete at best.

This type of salvation will not be complete until we are in heaven. Paul still struggled with sin, He said he still kept running the race. Until we are perfected (actually the term is glorified) our salvation from the power of sin will be incomplete.

Bit that has nothing to do with our salvation from the penalty of sin. That is what determines our eternity. Not our failure to keep from stumbling.. If failing to keep from stumbling determines our eternal state. we are all in danger. because no one is qualified under that standard. would you not agree??

I remember back in 1976 when they told me that I was 'saved' because I had repented and I had spoken in an unknown tongue for the first time. They were right in that I was saved from being stuck on that pathway which is pointed always away from God. But, the ultimately, final salvation of which so many speak so easily, was not mine. There was work to be done by God in me. Jesus had come to make that a possibility. He had been the Door/Gate placed at the entrance to Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life, but He was closed... not open to the dead people of this planet called Earth.

Jesus came and opened up the Door, Himself, so people could go through Him. I couldn't go through it myself in 1976 spite of feeling much better about the whole thing after my experience with God. But...LOL, I was still pretty blind. [How is my vision today?]

There is a lot more Light available to me these days, but the blindness is not gone. Actually what I see more clearly now is my inability to see very much at all much of the time. A lot of those little savings in people do little good because continually they go back and repeat themselves. Little good, little savings, like the natural children of Israel who had to return daily to just hold back the tide of hopelessness.

If we are saved from the penalty of one sin [death] one day,

Spiritual death is the context here, Not physical death.

If we are made alive in christ, who were dead in sin, We are saved. Just wanted to cut in and see if we understand the same here

but the underlying cause of the sin in ourselves remains, will we not walk again along that wrong pathway we know so well and repeat the very same sin? How long will God put up with this repeated repentance and backsliding habit? The habit, or better said, habits, are man's way as opposed to God's Way!

Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive his brother who did ought against him... seven times? Jesus said, no, try seven times seventy. How much mercy will God have on us when we repent with tears even after he has saved us from our sins repeatedly because we have repented repeatedly? Well I know I have failed Him more than 490 times since 1976.

What is Gods standard? I think this is where we need to start.

Can we meet This standard. that's the second question.

Paul struggled with pride. Pride is a very deep sin. It was so bad many people believe it is the reason he was given the thorn in the flesh. Did God remove his salvation because he kept failing..

remember, the good book says God has perfected forever, those who are being sanctified. Are we perfected forever while in the process of overcoming sin (sanctification) and who does the work of sanctification. God or us?

Paul also said we can be confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work will complete it? Does God fail?

If sin can keep us from heaven after we are saved, are we not under law not grace? Just asking

Why did God hate Esau and love Jacob?

Esau = edom (the nation)
Jacob = Israel (the nation)

God told us if we do not hate our parents our spouses and our children we can have nothing to do with him
He also told us we are to love them.
Is God confused?
Or did have a special place in his heart for Israel?

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

The "world" is the one that Jesus overcame in himself. We have been given the means to overcome it also in ourselves, but if we do not, and/or if
we will lack the proper garment and we will be turned away without partaking of the Tree of Life!

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

God have provided the means for us to overcome the world of our own flesh and other obstacles standing between us and God. He has promised to help us if we sincerely ask Him for help... but the test in this life in the flesh with its trials.
Jesus overcame the world of the temptations of men and made it possible for us to do so as well. Who but an overcomer may eat of the Tree of Life?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

who evercomes the world?

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5.
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.


We need to be careful thinking we can overcome ourselves. and that we will meet the standard of God and earn salvation.

 

[BarneyFife]

This makes no sense to me....
So SOME have hope. but not all. That does not give ME any hope
Jesus said come and he will give you rest. How can I have rest if I have no hope or assurance?
How can I claim I have hope in God if my hope is really based on me? (if salvation can be lost. my salvation is dependent on doing something, or failing to do something)



Again, Just because some think they are saved does not mean they are. And to use that because some think they are saved to prove people can lose salvation is self defeating. You can;t lose something you do not have.

As for people thinking they are saved,

Jesus said many will come just like this, Who say have we not done all these great works in your name.

What will jesus reply be to those who thought they were saved?

Depart from me FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU.

He never knew them, why? even though they THOUGHT they were saved, they were never saved. They did not lose security, salvation or eternal life. they never had it.

Nothing personal, of course, but this means the eternal security doctrine provides no assurance whatsoever. The matter of being able to "lose salvation" vs. the contrary is a moot point if the accepted point of soteriology is that conversion depends on human sincerity.

I'll take a hard pass on that kind of "assurance/security."

I'd rather just rely on Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of my faith and that he is able to keep me from falling and will be faithful to complete the good work He has begun in me. I'll take the word of Jesus and the apostles and prophets of Scripture over Jovinian, Gottschalk, Calvin, and their modern descendants.

The obsession with assurance of salvation that is displayed by some here on CB bears the appearance of selfishness to me. In many of these threads, the talk of assurance proceeds to the point that Christ Himself is lost thought of except as a common utility whereby self-preservation may be obtained.

No such mind was in Christ Jesus.

And the Bible as a whole seems much more concerned with the reconciliation of the sinner's relation to God and man than 'casing out' an opening in a pearly gate by which we might narrowly gain safety from that which ultimately awaits the despisers of God's grace.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nothing personal, of course, but this means the eternal security doctrine provides no assurance whatsoever. The matter of being able to "lose salvation" vs. the contrary is a moot point if the accepted point of soteriology is that conversion depends on human sincerity.

I'll take a hard pass on that kind of "assurance/security."

I'd rather just rely on Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of my faith and that he is able to keep me from falling and will be faithful to complete the good work He has begun in me. I'll take the word of Jesus and the apostles and prophets of Scripture over Jovinian, Gottschalk, Calvin, and their modern descendants.

The obsession with assurance of salvation that is displayed by some here on CB bears the appearance of selfishness to me. In many of these threads, the talk of assurance proceeds to the point that Christ Himself is lost thought of except as a common utility whereby self-preservation may be obtained.

No such mind was in Christ Jesus.

And the Bible as a whole seems much more concerned with the reconciliation of the sinner's relation to God and man than 'casing out' an opening in a pearly gate by which we might narrowly gain safety from that which ultimately awaits the despisers of God's grace.

this makes even worse sense.

If God promised eternal life (I will never die, but will live forever)
If God says whoever receives it in faith have it
If God through paul says it is the basis of our hope and that pasis is set on Gods promise, and God can not lie
If God says our faith and assurance is based on this hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for)

then either I have eternal security based on Gods promise that we will never die and have eternal life

or I have no assurance at all.

eternal security is based on the fact we HAVE eternal life

It is based on the fact it is God who begins the work. and it is God who finishes the work

It is based on the fact God said this is true about us. not based on how worthiness, But his work

To say eternal security gives no assurance just makes literally no sense period.

or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Johann]

this makes even worse sense.

If God promised eternal life (I will never die, but will live forever)
If God says whoever receives it in faith have it
If God through paul says it is the basis of our hope and that pasis is set on Gods promise, and God can not lie
If God says our faith and assurance is based on this hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for)

then either I have eternal security based on Gods promise that we will never die and have eternal life

or I have no assurance at all.

eternal security is based on the fact we HAVE eternal life

It is based on the fact it is God who begins the work. and it is God who finishes the work

It is based on the fact God said this is true about us. not based on how worthiness, But his work

To say eternal security gives no assurance just makes literally no sense period.

or am I misunderstanding you?

This is powerful, since our eternal destination is at stake here and some are taking it in a humorous kind of way..it is appointed ONCE for man to die and after that the Judgement...@Eternally Grateful
There IS hope and we HAVE salvation right now
Blessings
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is powerful, since our eternal destination is at stake here and some are taking it in a humorous kind of way..it is appointed ONCE for man to die and after that the Judgement...@Eternally Grateful
There IS hope and we HAVE salvation right now
Blessings
J.

amen,, If I do not have salvation now. or at am risk of losing it based on what I do or do not do.

I have no hope.. and my faith is misdirected.

 

[Johann]

amen,, If I do not have salvation now. or at am risk of losing it based on what I do or do not do.

I have no hope.. and my faith is misdirected.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Blessings
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

We are talking about salvation, eternal life. the gift of God by grace through faith. so not sure what your trying to point brother

Salvation can not be earned. If you or I are expecting to earn salvation by , then we are in deep danger

well wadr you gotta lotta bigger problems if you think salvation or “eternal life” means that you might become immortal, after you have died. just yikes.

 

[BarneyFife]

this makes even worse sense.

If God promised eternal life (I will never die, but will live forever)
If God says whoever receives it in faith have it
If God through paul says it is the basis of our hope and that pasis is set on Gods promise, and God can not lie
If God says our faith and assurance is based on this hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for)

then either I have eternal security based on Gods promise that we will never die and have eternal life

or I have no assurance at all.

eternal security is based on the fact we HAVE eternal life

It is based on the fact it is God who begins the work. and it is God who finishes the work

It is based on the fact God said this is true about us. not based on how worthiness, But his work

To say eternal security gives no assurance just makes literally no sense period.

or am I misunderstanding you?

I think you might just be misunderstanding me, yes. To my knowledge, within the eternal security doctrinal frame there are only two ways to deal with the problem of backsliding:

1. The person was insincere when he thought he was converted and therefore never "saved."
2. The person may or may not reconsecrate himself, but in no case will he be lost.

The first option allows the possibility of going through life like a spiritual yo-yo with a virtual revolving door at the front of the church house and effectively amounts to a type of "righteousness by sincerity" which is worthless as a foundation for righteousness or assurance.

The second option means God allows evil people into His presence who will be burned up by the brightness of His Glory.

Neither one of these options make any sense to me.

Of course, there is an alternative to all of this stuff:

We could say that when we say the sinner's prayer God waves a magic wand and turns us into religious robots who can no longer sin, but I don't think any non-fanatical person is going to buy that one.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When it comes to salvation Joe, there are no guarantees.

Not true at all. For the Born again Christian:

Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[amigo de christo]

The truth is who so ever shall call upon the glorious name of Christ shall be saved .
The problem is many are following another jesus . PS , that one cant save .
LEARN THY BIBLES . Ensure its the true JESUS we follow .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

well wadr you gotta lotta bigger problems if you think salvation or “eternal life” means that you might become immortal, after you have died. just yikes.

actually we have bigger problems if we think God makes promises and does not intend to keep them

if this life is all we got. lets eat drink and be merry, Because this is all we have.

 

[bbyrd009]

actually we have bigger problems if we think God makes promises and does not intend to keep them

if this life is all we got. lets eat drink and be merry, Because this is all we have.

?
oh, one might def put on immortality imo, dont get me wrong
and there are keys to the kingdom too, i bet!

I came that you (might) have life, more abundantly

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think you might just be misunderstanding me, yes. To my knowledge, within the eternal security doctrinal frame there are only two ways to deal with the problem of backsliding:

1. The person was insincere when he thought he was converted and therefore never "saved."
2. The person may or may not reconsecrate himself, but in no case will he be lost.

The first option allows the possibility of going through life like a spiritual yo-yo with a virtual revolving door at the front of the church house and effectively amounts to a type of "righteousness by sincerity" which is worthless as a foundation for righteousness or assurance.

The second option means God allows evil people into His presence who will be burned up by the brightness of His Glory.

Neither one of these options make any sense to me.

Of course, there is an alternative to all of this stuff:

We could say that when we say the sinner's prayer God waves a magic wand and turns us into religious robots who can no longer sin, but I don't think any non-fanatical person is going to buy that one.

you first case should say they naver had true saving faith and thus were never saved.. (many think they are saved but are not)

your second case would be nonsensical. Because we can not clean ourselves or consecrate ourselves.. If we think we can our faith is in self. and our ability and not God and his ability

your third case, I agree with.. Whoever thinks they will not longer sin not only does not understand God, but they fail to understand what sin is and they are deceived,.

your comment about the first option also makes no sense. If we think we can continue to live in sin all we want. then have we truly repented? Have we truly had faith of our situation? I would say not.. We may claim to have faith. but our faith is missing.

Now. when we get to security, lets look at the truthy..

The bible demands perfection. Non of us will meet this perfect state while alive on this earth. While we have power over the flesh, the flesh is still powerful. only through faith can we serve God in love and do the things of the spirit. But even then, we will still be sinning and fall short of Gods glory.

as paul said, the law came and sin increased. we do not learn righteous living by trying to be good. We learn righteous living by looking to Christ. and to his love mercy and forgiveness.

Eternal security, Gods love, Gods assurance is the means to overcome sin, Because as God said, he gives us rest. we can stop lookig to self and look to God.

The secular notion that eternal security causes a license to sin is false. and is based on a false idea of what sin is, and Gods standard.

While licentious believers use eternal security as a crutch. It does not mean eternal security is a sham. or false.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

?
oh, one might def put on immortality imo, dont get me wrong
and there are keys to the kingdom too, i bet!

I came that you (might) have life, more abundantly

yes, that abundant life is talking about here

we are all eternal. What is important is where we spend eternity. With God, or with Satan

 

[BarneyFife]

The truth is who so ever shall call upon the glorious name of Christ shall be saved .
The problem is many are following another jesus . PS , that one cant save .
LEARN THY BIBLES . Ensure its the true JESUS we follow .

Hi, Amigo!

A Blessed Good Friday to you (if that isn't too Babylonian for you :)).
Now, you know the Bible has more to say about redemption than that.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi, Amigo!

A Blessed Good Friday to you (if that isn't too Babylonian for you :)).
Now, you know the Bible has more to say about redemption than that.

yes it does . that is why i said READ THOSE BIBLES . cause way too many are following another jesus .
And that one cannot save .
SO Here is my challenge to all . SIMPLY READ YOUR BIBLE . KJV is the best .
AND dont omit the things that JESUS taught nor the apostels . AND DONT LET MEN omit the IFS and what follows those IFS .
TOO many twist way too much stuff unto their own destruction . I SAY heed every word .
AND when an IF is made , BELIEVE what follows that IF .
An example . FOR we are made partakers of CHRIST , IF , dont ignore what follows , instead believe it .
Every word was wrote for our Good and was inspired by GOD working through men who had the SPIRIT .
JESUS said It himself . HE who endures to the END the same shall be saved .
Lets not ignore those IFS , nor what follows them . INSTEAD embrace Every WORD .
FOR JESUS IS TRULY ABLE TO KEEP US FROM FALLING and the DOCTRINE IN THAT BIBLE IS SOUND .
From every warning to every promise its GOOD FOR OUR SOULS .

 

[BarneyFife]

...true saving faith
...truly repented
...truly had faith

All code for 'Righteousness By Sincerity.'

I lived it for 16 years.

Gave it up for the real thing--Righteousness By Faith.

I die daily.

Honestly, EG, the more I participate in these discussions, the more selfish I feel. No kidding.

 

[Enoch111]

Salvation is simply receiving the gift of everlasting life. Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said for most Christians it is yet a millennium away Rev 20:5

You have completely perverted the meaning of the gift of eternal life which is in the present tense (1 John 5:12,13). And you have also contradicted the Bible. Every English translation says the exact same thing, with some of the well-known translations shown below.

King James Bible
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

New American Standard Bible
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

New International Version
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

English Standard Version
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

When we quote Scripture we are quoting the words of God the Holy Spirit. So contradicting Him will have serious consequences.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi, Amigo!

A Blessed Good Friday to you (if that isn't too Babylonian for you :)).
Now, you know the Bible has more to say about redemption than that.

So long as you dont follow the CC why would it be babylonian . SO long as we keep the pagan out of it
it aint babylonian . ITS when we try and mix the pagan in with the HOLY that makes it of babylon .
And i wont cease to warn against such a thing either . No man can stop me my friend .
And why , cause i love you not , NO its cause i DO LOVE the people . AND we cannot mix the HOLY with the pagan . PEROID .

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi, Amigo!

A Blessed Good Friday to you (if that isn't too Babylonian for you :)).
Now, you know the Bible has more to say about redemption than that.

AKA DONT go decking up Christmas trees , or easter bunny and eggs stuff .
IF one wants to celebrate the birth , death and ressurection of CHRIST , DO SO , but keep the pagan out of it .
cause pagan dont honor JESUS . Folks FORGET THIS way too fast me thinks .
KEEP the pagan out of it , keep baal out of it . KEEP it holy and honor the LORD .