The Church Is The Israel Of God, Children Of The Promised Seed

[Timtofly]

You completely ignored my post and continue to dwell on the 144,000 and a 1,000 year millennium with sacrifices re-instated and in complete denial that my post showed that once Christ died and was resurrected, the temple in Jerusalem destroyed and the fact that there is NO mention of the 144,000 in the gospels or the epistles nor is there any mention of a 1,000 year millennium in the epistles either. You still keep your head in Revelations' drama and controversial symbolism rather than the superior message in the Garden of Eden, the historical event from the birth of Christ to his resurrection and the epistles as if they were irrelevant instead of the most important passages in scripture!!!!

Theologian Sam Storms, who was a devout dispensationalist Dallas theological seminary student was given a term paper project on Ephesians 2. He could not get past that text because it clearly brings the body of Christ together as both a Jew/Gentile Christian church during the first century. Because of that book, he was convicted by the Holy Spirit to deny his dispensational teachings from Dallas and he now speaks openly by saying that "reinstating sacrifices are an abomination to the Lord."

So after you read the entire book of Ephesians and you still cannot comprehend that there is no more need for a temple to be built for sacrifices to bring salvation to the Jews, and you still remain a devout dispensationalist, then we really have nothing to discuss.

I never mentioned a temple or sacrifices. Thanks for arguing your own presumptions.


Try Matthew 25:31.

 

[Moriah's Song]

I never mentioned a temple or sacrifices.

Then you have no need for a 1,000 year millennium now do you?

 

[GEN2REV]

Then you have no need for a 1,000 year millennium now do you?

There is no need at all.

Israel doesn't need it for God to make good on Land Promises that He's already made good on thousands of years ago.

Men don't need it for additional time to learn righteousness.

God doesn't need it because He somehow failed(?) to accomplish His purpose with Jesus' First Advent; it was perfectly well accomplished when Jesus was on the earth in the flesh.

The Bible doesn't need it for all the misinterpreted eschatological events to take place that are dreamed of in man's imagination.

Jesus doesn't need it so that He can rule upon the physical earth; He already does rule here in the hearts of those who have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart that is engraved with the Commandments.

There is no need whatsoever for a 1,000 year time period after Christ's return.

None.

 

[Timtofly]

Then you have no need for a 1,000 year millennium now do you?

No but Jesus as Prince will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years despite you refuting God's Word.

 

[Moriah's Song]

No but Jesus as Prince will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years

So you agree that you really don't have a need for aa 1,000 year millennim but Jesus is going to reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years? :

Also, since you say there is no need for a new temple then what is he here for and where is he going to reign from? The dome of the rocK?

I think you better read GEN2REV's post above!

 

[Timtofly]

There is no need at all.

Israel doesn't need it for God to make good on Land Promises that He's already made good on thousands of years ago.

Men don't need it for additional time to learn righteousness.

God doesn't need it because He somehow failed(?) to accomplish His purpose with Jesus' First Advent; it was perfectly well accomplished when Jesus was on the earth in the flesh.

The Bible doesn't need it for all the misinterpreted eschatological events to take place that are dreamed of in man's imagination.

Jesus doesn't need it so that He can rule upon the physical earth; He already does rule here in the hearts of those who have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart that is engraved with the Commandments.

There is no need whatsoever for a 1,000 year time period after Christ's return.

None.

You did not need to create this post, but yet we have time wasted in doing so.

 

[Moriah's Song]

You did not need to create this post, but yet we have time wasted in doing so.

Oh yes, GEN2REV did need to post things that oppose your theories that Darby created in the early 1800's.

But, as usual in other threads you have been on, you live in the world of Revelations symbolism that even theologians can't agree on. Yet you seem to think your views are more important than what Ephesians 2 says about the present reality that Jesus brought both Jews and Gentiles together as "one body of Christ" when he was here on earth 2000 years ago with just two out of his many major prophecies being fulfilled.

In regards to the Jews, he fulfilled the "two sticks" OT prophecy of bringing the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" together on the Day of Pentecost as is noted in Peter's sermon in Acts 2.

He also, at that time fulfilled the Jeremiah 31:31 prophecy of the promise of a New Covenant for the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah."​

As I have said before, there has always been mixed Jews and Gentiles in the "tree of life" beginning with the Garden of Eden and ending with Judgment Day.

But because of your dispensational theory, you have to keep denying the truth of scripture that states that there are at least 4 Gentiles in the line of Jesus in Matthew:

• Abraham's origins were Gentiles of Ur of the Chaldeans
• Tamar was a Gentile woman
• Rahab's origins were also of the Gentiles
• Ruth's origins were also of the Gentiles

None of the above 4 were born with "Jewish" blood. Why is this important? It is important because even in the geneology of Jesus line God intended for Jews and Gentiles to become one united people of God in the "after the cross" Christian "church" ---- not by "blood" but by "faith."

Lastly, it seems as though you haven't even looked at Ephesians 2 yet? Is it because you are unable to accept the truth of it that blows your two people dispensational theory apart?

 

[GEN2REV]

You did not need to create this post, but yet we have time wasted in doing so.

But this post was entirely necessary and time well spent, right?

 

[robert derrick]

That's false though. The first known Amillennialist opposed the canonization of Revelation. Obviously he didn't like what Revelation 20 says about the Millennium. To this day, Amillennialism rarely quotes from it.

Or if they do, they reject it, because it's only a verse of Scripture.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Or if they do, they reject it, because it's only a verse of Scripture.

Don't put all Amils in the same box. I don't ignore Rev. 20 any more than the remainder of Revelations. However, the major differnce between amils' and premils' view of the book is that premil's use it literally to base their heretical dispensational theories on the highly symbolism contained in it. As an amill I do hold a reasonable interpretion of it but do not care to debate it with unreasonable views of those who are followers of John Nelson Darby and the Scofield Bibles slanted and distorted footnotes of his so-called "theory".

It would be like trying to convince the serpant he misquoted scripture to Eve. I have always preferred the entire Bible; not one book over the whole. God's plan of salvation for mankind is what the whole book is about and the historical always takes priority over symbolism; or it should!

 

[Cassandra]

But because of your dispensational theory, you have to keep denying the truth of scripture that states that there are at least 4 Gentiles in the line of Jesus in Matthew:

• Abraham's origins were Gentiles of Ur of the Chaldeans
• Tamar was a Gentile woman
• Rahab's origins were also of the Gentiles
• Ruth's origins were also of the Gentiles

None of the above 4 were born with "Jewish" blood. Why is this important? It is important because even in the geneology of Jesus line God intended for Jews and Gentiles to become one united people of God in the "after the cross" Christian "church" ---- not by "blood" but by "faith."

Oh! excellent!!!

 

[farouk]

Oh! excellent!!!

Actually I would see from 1 Corinthians 10.32 the church, Israel and the Gentiles would seem to be distinct.

 

[robert derrick]

Do you ever wonder why the angels are physically on earth, physically pulling souls out of physical bodies? Why not just do it the same as now? The sea of glass is a physical symbolism of some place these souls with new permanent incorruptible physical bodies wait until after the battle of Armageddon. An angel physically escorts them, no? The wheat is gathered into the barn, no? The sea of glass is the same place as the barn symbolizes.

Isaiah 65 indicates a new heaven and earth. No more sin, so no more sinful flesh and blood. The wheat represents all nations. The sheep represents Israel. The 144k are the disciples during the period after the Second Coming.

Noah started out on a new heaven and earth, because the former was destroyed. For one, the water above the firmament was now on the earth, instead of separated by the firmament. The earth was changed because the fountains of the deep came up through the earth, splitting the earth itself. There were only 8 people, and none of the wicked left on earth.

So you take the Second Coming as like Noah, but not like Noah, suiting your theology? Like Noah would mean no one with Adam's dead corruptible flesh and blood survive the destruction coming. The destruction happens before things are made new. 2 Peter 3 explains what happens, with the baptism of fire.

The difference with the Second Coming with Noah is that God redeems more than just 8 souls, but all those starting out alive after Satan is bound are redeemed. They all have new permanent incorruptible physical bodies. There is no sin, nor any bondage of humanity and the earth to the effects of sin and decay. It will be the earth again like before Adam disobeyed God in the Garden. It will not be same earth like the last 6,000 years.

You all can argue about a temple, an alter, and sacrifices all you want. There is also a temple and alter in heaven without sin and death in heaven. Jesus having one on earth, will not be the old law given on Sinai. It will be part of the iron rod rule for the next 1,000 years. Getting too bogged down into the specifics of the Millennium is not productive. We as sinners in Adam's flesh and blood are too biased with knowing good and evil, black and white, even with grey areas called grace. The Millennium will be void of the knowledge of good and evil. No one will be eating from that tree. And no one alive will still have Adam's dead corruptible flesh and blood. Those 8 souls were not spiritually changed at the Flood. They still carried on Adam's fallen nature. All humanity will be changed at the Second Coming who live on in the Millennium. That is the only way to still be alive during the Millennium. Being changed is the "ark" experience.

All humanity will be changed at the Second Coming who live on in the Millennium. That is the only way to still be alive during the Millennium.

So you agree there is a millennial rule of Christ and His resurrected saints by rod of iron.

Isaiah 65 indicates a new heaven and earth. No more sin, so no more sinful flesh and blood. The wheat represents all nations. The sheep represents Israel.

However, you appear to confuse it with the new heaven and earth, which is only after the millennial reign.

The 144k are the disciples during the period after the Second Coming.

I hold to the 144k being a perfected number of all saints in Christ Jesus, that walk in His steps and follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth, and are as chaste virgins presenting their bodies a living sacrifice to Christ on earth, and are presented to the Father by the Son with the resurrection.

The resurrected saints will be ministering the reign of Christ on earth.

All members of the body of Christ and disciples of the Lord are equal in honor and worthiness to walk in white and have power with God. There is no 'division' of specially better saints than in other. There are different callings of individual members, but not specially selected group.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Being changed is the "ark" experience.

Being delivered is the ark experience, which deliverance Scripture speaks of as a figure for baptism in Christ in this life, which is itself a figure for the resurrection of the church body amidst the Lord's return to smite the nations. Even as Noah built the ark according to God's commandments, so do we work out our own salvation. Even as the ark was being prepared during God's mercy, so do we prepare ourselves in righteousness and true holiness to be presented to the Lord at His coming.

You all can argue about a temple, an alter, and sacrifices all you want. There is also a temple and alter in heaven without sin and death in heaven.

No argument, just Scripture in Ezekiel, which temple in heaven now, I believe, will be put on earth by the Lord at His coming. Scripture of Ezekiel says nothing about the temple of the God on earth being built with men's hands.

The temple of God at the start of Rev 11 is the church of Christ on earth, with the earth being the outer court trampled by the nations until His return.

Do you ever wonder why the angels are physically on earth, physically pulling souls out of physical bodies? Why not just do it the same as now?

No, I never wondered about nor even thought of such a thing. In Jude we read of souls being ministerially saved and pulled from the fire of judgement. IN Genesis we read of fallen angels mating with women to produce giants on earth. But I don't read any Scripture about souls being 'yanked' out of their bodies by angels.

In the resurrection Scripture shows it is the resurrection of the body, where the mortal bodies shall be made immortal, and the souls shall be made incorruptible. The mortal flesh and blood shall become spiritual bodies like unto that of Jesus Christ is in heaven.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The sea of glass is a physical symbolism of some place these souls with new permanent incorruptible physical bodies wait until after the battle of Armageddon.

The sea of glass may indeed be the sky seen from above in the high air where the saints rise to meet with the Lord, but they will be coming witht he Lord to do battle on earth:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all...

An angel physically escorts them, no?

Yes. From the four winds after they ascend into the air with clouds, even as Jesus did in Acts 1.

However this is not the dividing of nations as sheep or goats, which takes place on earth after the destruction of the armies, and the beginning of the Lord's reign with His saints. The sheep will be the neighborly sinners left alive on earth, who did not persecute the saints on earth, nor gather with the armies to fight the Lord.

The wheat is gathered into the barn, no? The sea of glass is the same place as the barn symbolizes.

Yes, I agree; however, the sea of glass is as real and true as the throne in heaven, Mt Sion, and heavenly Jerusalem.

Noah started out on a new heaven and earth, because the former was destroyed.

It was a freshly cleansed earth by rain, but not a new earth nor new heaven. The waters were divided in Gen 1.

2 Peter 3 explains what happens, with the baptism of fire.

Peter is speaking of the burning of the old earth at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ on this earth.

So you take the Second Coming as like Noah, but not like Noah, suiting your theology?

No, but as written in Scripture, the flood in the days of Noah is likened to His second coming in that of speed: an all of a sudden even that the inhabiters of the earth had no suspicion of, except in the preaching of Noah and the gospel that they reject.

 

[robert derrick]

1- How did God rule over humans after the flood? God sent the flood to judge the world at that time of heinous, continual, worldwide sin. Yes, He knew that the flood would not eradicate the sin problem and that mankind would remain sinful after the flood. But God was not done dealing with sin. He sent His Son into the world to disarm the powers of evil and make “a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross” (Colossians 2:15). Because of Christ, the new heaven and new earth are promised (Revelation 21:1), and “no longer will there be any curse” (Revelation 22:3).

2- Do you think they all came from Noah and his 3 sons,...yes, just like Adam and Eve populated the earth from their own children - which were many.

3- ...or was there a remnant of the wicked somewhere else on earth? No! Evil was, and still is a part of humanity until Christ does away with all of it.

4- ...That "remnant" you are looking for are the 144k, the sheep from Matthew 25, and the wheat from Matthew 13....No they are not! There is not ONE hint of a 144,000 sheep or wheat anywhere in Matthew.

Definition of eisegesis (Wikipedia): Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.​

If we all did that to scripture, how many different "heresies" like yours come out of scripture. How would you know truth if everyone did what you just did to scripture! Try preaching that one out to Jesus!

5- This is God's handpicked firstfruits to multiply during the Millennium...un NO! It is more like Tim's very vivid imagination that will be burnt along with the other false doctrinces like this.

The sheep and goats are nations divided on earth by the Lord to begin His reign. They are not the wheat and tares divided in the resurrection of the church.

I believe the sheep are the neighborly unbelievers that do not persecute the saints on earth, nor gather with the armies to fight with the Lord.

They will replenish the earth one last time for a thousand years in the blessed kingdom of King Jesus' reign with His saints over the earth:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

 

[robert derrick]

Not any part of Premillennialism can be proven.

Premillennialism is a good name for the resurrection of the church being toward the end of the last great tribulation days on earth.

The moment the church rises to meet with the returned Lord in the air, is the moment His reign begins over the earth from the air.

He will be fellowshipping with His brethren in the air, while allowing the reprobates of the earth to actually gather together to fight Him.

It will prove to be as insane as Pharaoh leading his armies down into the dry sea bed with waves standing on either side, just waiting to come crashing down upon them all in an instant.

 

[Timtofly]

As I have said before, there has always been mixed Jews and Gentiles in the "tree of life" beginning with the Garden of Eden and ending with Judgment Day.

Why are you so fixated with Jews and Gentiles in the Garden?

My point was about the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

But this post was entirely necessary and time well spent, right?

Only if you feel the need.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Actually I would see from 1 Corinthians 10.32 the church, Israel and the Gentiles would seem to be distinct.

That's only because you see it with blindfolds on.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Only if you feel the need.

Tim, you keep showing your inability to deal with several above posts.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Why are you so fixated with Jews and Gentiles in the Garden?

I never said there was a mixed "race" in the Garden of Eden. Religious beliefs of people are not a "race" of people. Adam and Eve were "gentiles" because the "Jews/Israelites" had not become a religious group until circumcision days. That makes Abraham a Gentile until circumcision made him a "Jew." But they were all a part of the "tree of life" not because of circumcision but because they "believed God" and looked forward to the cross as in Genesis 3:15.