Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated

[reformed1689]

Simple! The distorted view that Jesus Christ Died only for "the elect", who alone can be saved. And therefore REJECTING that God LOVES the entire human race, and desires their salvation, as clear in the Infallible Word of God!

Oversimplification means you don't know what it teaches which is obvious from your posts here and elsewhere.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Oversimplification means you don't know what it teaches which is obvious from your posts here and elsewhere.

how MANY times do I need to say this? Then PROVE from John 3:16, that God does not Love the entire human race with a SAVING LOVE.

 

[reformed1689]

how MANY times do I need to say this? Then PROVE from John 3:16, that God does not Love the entire human race with a SAVING LOVE.

Sorry, I don't isolate single verses. But John 3:16 says nothing about a saving love.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Sorry, I don't isolate single verses. But John 3:16 says nothing about a saving love.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

God's LOVE, and SALVATION are clear in this verse! He LOVES the entire human race, and not only those who are BELIEVERS!

 

[reformed1689]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

God's LOVE, and SALVATION are clear in this verse! He LOVES the entire human race, and not only those who are BELIEVERS!

And notice there are two separate clauses there. Goodness. IT does not say he loved the entire human race with a saving love. Doesn't say that at all, you add that in there to prop up your debunked theology.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And notice there are two separate clauses there. Goodness. IT does not say he loved the entire human race with a saving love. Doesn't say that at all, you add that in there to prop up your debunked theology.

 

[quietthinker]

Jacob I loved but E sau I hated hairy people

 

[CadyandZoe]

the ONLY break that you really need, is from the NONSENSE that reformed theology teaches on salvation!

You aren't answering the questions I put to you. How can we have a discussion?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Simple! The distorted view that Jesus Christ Died only for "the elect", who alone can be saved. And therefore REJECTING that God LOVES the entire human race, and desires their salvation, as clear in the Infallible Word of God!

Do you believe in universal salvation? If Christ died for the entire human race and God loved the entire human race, then obviously every one in the human race is saved. Right?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Do you believe in universal salvation? If Christ died for the entire human race and God loved the entire human race, then obviously every one in the human race is saved. Right?

I am convinced that you "reformed" are more interested in your rather silly arguments, than what the Bible says!

IF you were to READ what the BIBLE says, without your silly THEOLOGY, you will see in John 3:16-18,

1 God loves the entire human race

2. those from this race who believe will be saved

3. those from this race who do not believe will be lost

Is this so difficult for you guys to GRASP???

 

[Davy]

Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated (Romans 9:13)

Probably the most used verse by the Reformed/Calvinist, to “prove”, that God loves the “elect”, and hates those who are the “non-elect”. It is clear when left in the context, that it says no such thing!

“For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy” (verses 11-16)
....

Amazing, did all that talk about election and Esau and didn't even mention the Old Testament Scripture where Apostle Paul was quoting from about God loving Jacob but hating Esau.

 

[TahitiRun]

Do you believe in universal salvation? If Christ died for the entire human race and God loved the entire human race, then obviously every one in the human race is saved. Right?

Not necessarily "is" saved, as yet, but rather "shall be" saved.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The wording of the purpose clause (Php 2:10-11 in the KJV) translates the aorist tense/subjunctive mood verbs "bow" and "confess" as only being potential. However, it's purpose is to answer the question as to why God exalted the name of Jesus above every name (v.9). And the answer is so that (Gk ἵνα, ie: purpose) every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God. And by doing so, Paul tells us "thou shalt be saved", using the future tense/indicative mood for the verb "saved".

Also, the wording of Php 2:10 is taken from Isaiah, here:

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

And also, the LXX translation of the Hebrew text uses the verbs "καμψει" and "εξομολογησεται" in the future tense/indicative mood, giving a statement of fact. It will happen. It just hasn't happened yet.

There is no room for doubt that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear/confess to God, exactly as the text states. And consequently, "thou shall be saved". This is applicable to everyone, to all without exception. To all souls, as the text clearly indicates: of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. The word "things" could just as easily have been stated as "those", the term things is not in the actual text.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Amazing, did all that talk about election and Esau and didn't even mention the Old Testament Scripture where Apostle Paul was quoting from about God loving Jacob but hating Esau.

It makes no difference at all because the meaning doesn't change

 

[Davy]

It makes no difference at all because the meaning doesn't change

There's actually more there in Malachi where Apostle Paul was pulling that from in Romans 9, but your reasoning shows you're not aware.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

There's actually more there in Malachi where Apostle Paul was pulling that from in Romans 9, but your reasoning shows you're not aware.

like what? Paul clear says in Romans the purpose for quoting from Malachi, to show that the older will SERVE the younger. The Calvinist will try to force their theology from this, which is not there!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not necessarily "is" saved, as yet, but rather "shall be" saved.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The wording of the purpose clause (Php 2:10-11 in the KJV) translates the aorist tense/subjunctive mood verbs "bow" and "confess" as only being potential. However, it's purpose is to answer the question as to why God exalted the name of Jesus above every name (v.9). And the answer is so that (Gk ἵνα, ie: purpose) every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God. And by doing so, Paul tells us "thou shalt be saved", using the future tense/indicative mood for the verb "saved".

Also, the wording of Php 2:10 is taken from Isaiah, here:

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

And also, the LXX translation of the Hebrew text uses the verbs "καμψει" and "εξομολογησεται" in the future tense/indicative mood, giving a statement of fact. It will happen. It just hasn't happened yet.

There is no room for doubt that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear/confess to God, exactly as the text states. And consequently, "thou shall be saved". This is applicable to everyone, to all without exception. To all souls, as the text clearly indicates: of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. The word "things" could just as easily have been stated as "those", the term things is not in the actual text.

When it says that every knee shall bow and tongue confess it is understood that this applies to everyone that exists at the time. Those who are thrown into the lake of fire will do neither.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am convinced that you "reformed" are more interested in your rather silly arguments, than what the Bible says!

It seems to me, you might be more interested in winning an argument than what the Bible actually says. I agree, it is certainly possible that I am reading the Bible through my own theological lenses. But unless you are willing to accept that possibility for yourself, then where does that leave us? Are you willing to admit that you might be reading the Bible through your own theological lenses?

I don't suppose you would be willing to admit that the Bible contains more verses that John 3:16-18?

Is this so difficult for you guys to GRASP???

Some truths, while not difficult to grasp, are difficult to accept.

You referred to me as "you reformed" as if I wasn't a brother in Christ, sharing a common hope and destiny. Is that your view, am I your enemy now? It's easy to ignore my arguments if you consider me the enemy isn't it? Let's get real now. The time is short.

Do you consider me the enemy?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

It seems to me, you might be more interested in winning an argument than what the Bible actually says. I agree, it is certainly possible that I am reading the Bible through my own theological lenses. But unless you are willing to accept that possibility for yourself, then where does that leave us? Are you willing to admit that you might be reading the Bible through your own theological lenses?

I don't suppose you would be willing to admit that the Bible contains more verses that John 3:16-18?


Some truths, while not difficult to grasp, are difficult to accept.

You referred to me as "you reformed" as if I wasn't a brother in Christ, sharing a common hope and destiny. Is that your view, am I your enemy now? It's easy to ignore my arguments if you consider me the enemy isn't it? Let's get real now. The time is short.

Do you consider me the enemy?

Even the father of Calvinism John Calvin says on John 3.16

EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION

Now deal with this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rom 9 is about salvation, thats the entire context, and you havent disproved that.

this is wrong

Rom 9 - 11 is about Isreal. Did God make a mistake in chosing the nation who rejected and crucified him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hate in the hebrew is not always used as in HATRED.

It also is used in the form of love less.

God tells us through the law to love our parents and our wife/husband and children.

Yet Jesus said unless we HATE these. we will not enter the kingdom.

In this form. The term means love less.. God did not contradict himself and tell us to start hating those we are commanded to love. He is saying we must Love God more than these..