reformed1689
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Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
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reformed1689
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If you can't see that whole passage, in fact the whole group of chapters is about salvation there is no help for you.
I don't know where you get this from?. Read the CONTEXT of John 3, and you will see the Bible answer
For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.
God's Saving Love for the world is UNIVERSAL, but it is the sinner who must "repent and believe" before they are saved. There is no other way to understand these words
Nothing about salvation with regards to Jacob and Esau. Nothing about salvation with regards to Pharaoh. Reformed theology might want it to say this, but the Bible does not!
reformed1689
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reformed1689
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So they save themselves? That's what your argument says if taken to its logical conclusion. They decide whether they will be saved, not God.
CadyandZoe
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I don't think so. That is, I don't think the Reformed/Calvinists have forced the meaning of the text to speak about salvation. The doctrine of God's election comes from the entire chapter, not merely a single verse standing alone by itself. Paul is building an argument step-by-step like this: if my first statement is true, then my second statement follows from that. And if my second statement is true, then my third statement follows from that, and etc.
But all three chapters, Romans 9 through 11, is Paul's argument for why, though it belongs to Jacob's children by birthright, God's promise of salvation doesn't apply to each and every child of Jacob. Where did the Jews get that idea? Can corporate election be found in the Bible? Yes. But the Jews of Paul's day misunderstood God's plan.
We, you and I, believe in the concept of individual salvation because Paul taught it to us. So, in order to fully understand Paul's argument, it would be best to allow Paul to prove it to us again, or at least allow his argument to progress, step-by-step to see how it all comes together. We should pretend that we are hearing the argument for the first time and "make" Paul prove it to us again. He begins with an opening premise, which dictates the form and direction of his argument:
. . . my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. Romans 9:3-6
Most people jump to verse 6 and fail to take the previous three verses into account. He very plainly and explicitly says that the "adoption as sons" belongs to his kinsmen according to the flesh, i.e. the Israelites. And in the minds of his objectors, since the adoption as sons belongs to them as a people, then Paul needs to prove why the word of God hasn't failed. What word? His promise to grant the adoption as sons to his people Israel.
Paul has employed the Roman custom of "adoption", using it in a figurative sense, to speak about those who stand to inherit the Abrahamic promises, which includes eternal life. Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5. Due to the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus the Christ, God is granting a down payment on the adoption as sons in the form of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and we await eagerly for the adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Paul asserts that this "adoption as sons" belongs to his kinsmen and yet, God is not giving it to all of them. Does this mean that God's word has failed. We would say, "no." But Paul needs to prove it. And so he spends three chapters explaining why.
Ronald David Bruno
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Don't get me wrong, I don't understand how He causes all things to work together for good. And I don't need to know to accept it and believe. I am merely pointing out that these doctrines contain unknown mysteries, things we cannot understand. It's like presenting a formula with missing elements. You should not attempt it. You can present it as theory, but not fact. Like the TOE or the Big Bang theory, there are missing components outside of the physical universe that science will just never find, because it is in the spiritual/supernatural realm of God.
Yet without this omniscience, Calvin went ahead and formulated his TULIP theology as if putting God's complete set of blueprints in a box, wrapping it up with a nice little flowery bow and presenting it to the world. It's flawed, but so is Arminianism.
God made us in His image. We are as real as His purpose. Real means true. Something is either true or false. I am therefore I exist and this is confirmed by my Creator. Though many are temporal, He created His chosen to live forever, to be like Christ. So to use this analogy of not being as real as He is, to dispel the notion of an a paradox is _ not real. A paradox is something that seems conflicting or contradictory but in reality it's not. It is our perception that's flawed and makes it confusing because it is based on our lack of understanding the whole picture as God sees it.
When we finally are resurrected and enter into His presense, we shall understand more of how things work.
I don't think angels know. Certainly Satan knows more than we do, but not how God implements His plan. I think it is a paradox to him too. Angels cannot create things. Life does not come from them. They do not have that kind of power. They do have powerful destructive forces and at the same time, the ability to protect us.
I think Lucifer got jealous of us because he was the most glorious angel, #1. He found out that man, created to be lower than angels, would some day become more precious and loved, be even closer to God relationally, rise above them and even judge them as well. Wow, what a blow to his ego.
reformed1689
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reformed1689
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So are you calling Jesus a liar? Only the ones the Father gives him can come to him.
"God SO LOVES the entire human race, that He gave His Unique Son, that whoever from this race were to believe in Jesus, will not be lost, but have eternal life". This is my paraphrase, now show that I am wrong!
reformed1689
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First off, I don't deal with paraphrases, I deal with Scripture. Second, Christ died for the whoever believes, yes. The question is, who will believe? Nobody seeks God. Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father grants it. So the only people who believe are the ones granted by the Father. Next question?
dude, the fact cannot be changed, that God so loves the entire human race, with a SAVING LOVE! You will never be able to do away with this!
Thats false, how can it be a saving love when the objects of it are lost forever in their sins. Only the people who are saved were loved with a saving love.
reformed1689
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Where does it say God loves the entire human race, meaning every individual, with a SAVING love? It doesn't.
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