Why do Catholics adore, worship and deify Mary so much?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,198
113
73
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
So, an Angel greeted Mary? Not the first time or the last time an Angel greeted a human person.
So, Mary was blessed? Not the first time or the last time a human person was blessed.

How does Mary being greeted and blessed make her “sinless”?

Why does Scripture FLAT OUT SAY JESUS was without Sin....but you can NOT QUOTE one Scripture that says Mary was without Sin?

Answer....Because Scripture says no such thing About Mary being Sinless.
Catholics believe that this verse Luke 1:28 is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer). (Robertson, II, 13)
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it (Rom. 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . . (Kittel, 1304-1305)​

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14
We are saved by grace, and grace alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.


Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.
2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.
The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions...

...Most Protestant thinkers and opponents of Catholic doctrine would, I think, assume that the Immaculate Conception could easily be disproven from Scripture. But from an analysis of the verses cited, we see that, although it cannot be absolutely proven from Scripture alone, it cannot be ruled out on the basis of Scripture, either. What is more, a solid deductive and exegetical basis for belief in Mary’s sinlessness, and thus her Immaculate Conception, can be drawn from Scripture alone.

Luke 1:28 (“Full of Grace”) and the Immaculate Conception | Dave Armstrong
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,198
113
73
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
This thread title "Why do Catholics adore, worship and deify Mary so much?" presupposes a three-fold falsehood, is stupid and absurd, insulting, and violates the rules (which don't seem to apply to ignorant Catholic bashers.) Since anti-Catholics are too lazy to find out what Catholics really believe, they make stuff up like this ridiculous thread title.

catholics-dont-worship-mary.jpg
 
Last edited:

Bob Carabbio

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2016
612
389
63
82
Dallas, TX
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
is Paul also funny to you?

He claimed to be all powerful

Chuckle!!!! NO HE DIDN'T - you're being ridiculous!!!

Phil 4:13 I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

And there's the answer to your silly statement. IF you're a Born Again Christian (instead of only a "religious Catholic"), then YOU have the same power.

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing!

And that's the reason why.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

Bob Carabbio

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2016
612
389
63
82
Dallas, TX
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
what does born again mean?

You're kidding, right??? If you had ever bothered to READ YOUR BIBLE, you'd have found out in John 3.

How is one to become born again?

SImple -
God DRAWS you to Jesus, and convicts you of your SIN, and of Judgement. YOU surrender, and REPENT OF YOUR SIN, and cry out in FAITH (gifted by God (Eph 2:8,9) for salvation through the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on Calvary (Isa 53). THEN the Holy Spirit will indwell you, and make you a Christian.

Next question??
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

Moriah's Song

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2021
824
326
63
Murphy
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer). (Robertson, II, 13)
I have A.T. Robertson's works also and, although you properly quoted him for the most part, you neglected to include "The oldest MSS. do not have "Blessed art thou among women" here but in verse 42."

Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon has:
"in the angel's greeting to Mary....one who has been favored (by God) Luke 1:28

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon has:
2. to pursue with grace, compass with favor; to honor with blessings; Eph. 1:6; Lk 1:28. (some would take it in these two exx. subjectively (R.V. mmrg. endued with grace)

Vine's Dictionary has: (of which you left out of on page 171)
The corresponding verb "charitoo, to endue with Divine favor or grace," is used in Luke 1:28, "highly favored" (marg., "endued with grace) Eph 1:6, "hath made...accepted;" R.V. "freely bestowed" (marg., endued.")

In page 84 of Vine's it says: CHARITOO, to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious, and came to denote, in Hellenistic Greek, to cause to find favour, Luke 1:28, "highly favoured" (marg., "endued with grace"):​

But the important thing in Robertson's writing's is that he qualifies it by saying...

"The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘;
wrong, if it means full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘
Having been "endued" is not the same as "being full of grace" as the RCC likes to make it be. Being "full of grace" implies that Mary has that as a part of her personality that others do not have. Having been "endued" with grace is something all born-again Christians have been given.

(Emphasises added)
 
Last edited:

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, an Angel greeted Mary? Not the first time or the last time an Angel greeted a human person.
So, Mary was blessed? Not the first time or the last time a human person was blessed.

How does Mary being greeted and blessed make her “sinless”?

Why does Scripture FLAT OUT SAY JESUS was without Sin....but you can NOT QUOTE one Scripture that says Mary was without Sin?

Answer....Because Scripture says no such thing About Mary being Sinless.

also say full of grace!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
[QUOTE="Bob Carabbio, post: 1249958, member:

Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times.

wanna guess why?

cos
First:

I baptize you in the name of the father

second:

and of the son

third:

and of the Holy Spirit!

and a sacrament is an outward sign
Which is a gift from God to help our little minds see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, an Angel greeted Mary? Not the first time or the last time an Angel greeted a human person.
So, Mary was blessed? Not the first time or the last time a human person was blessed.

How does Mary being greeted and blessed make her “sinless”?

Why does Scripture FLAT OUT SAY JESUS was without Sin....but you can NOT QUOTE one Scripture that says Mary was without Sin?

Answer....Because Scripture says no such thing About Mary being Sinless.

does not need to be either

it’s in the divine tradition and in the apostolic tradition!

all scripture came by tradition!

And by divine tradition!

tradition means teaching!

the church of the apostles founded by Christ on Peter received all of the faith, all truths revealed by God personally taught by Christ to his apostles!

the rule of faith is the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

must hear the church Matt 18:17 the church is the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15 cos Christ and his apostolic church are one!
Matt 5:14
Jn 15:5
Acts 9:4
eph 5:32

truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his apostolic church Matt 28:19

the church does not require scripture to know truth cos the church received the “deposit of faith” Jude 1:3 from Christ in person and the church of the apostles by apostolic authority and inspired human authority wrote the scriptures.

Scripture is the possession of the church!
Scripture was written by the church!
The church by apostolic tradition & authority declare what is &w hat is not scripture!

Given her by Christ! Jude 1:3
To safeguard against all error!
To faithfully teach all nations!
Matt 28:19
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's called "my constitutional rights" to give my opinion, especially since all those "traditions" of the RCC give me the right to speak of the heresies within the kind of system that keeps their members by means of "fear" rather than the truth of scripture.

As long it’s just an opinion!

all scripture came by tradition!

And by divine tradition!

tradition means teaching!

the church of the apostles founded by Christ on Peter received all of the faith, all truths revealed by God personally taught by Christ to his apostles!

the rule of faith is the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

must hear the church Matt 18:17 the church is the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15 cos Christ and his apostolic church are one!
Matt 5:14
Jn 15:5
Acts 9:4
eph 5:32

truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his apostolic church Matt 28:19

the church does not require scripture to know truth cos the church received the “deposit of faith” Jude 1:3 from Christ in person and the church of the apostles by apostolic authority and inspired human authority wrote the scriptures.

Scripture is the possession of the church!

Given her by Christ
To safeguard against all error!
To faithfully teach all nations!
Matt 28:19


all scripture came by tradition!

And by divine tradition!

tradition means teaching!

the church of the apostles founded by Christ on Peter received all of the faith, all truths revealed by God personally taught by Christ to his apostles!

the rule of faith is the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

must hear the church Matt 18:17 the church is the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15 cos Christ and his apostolic church are one!
Matt 5:14
Jn 15:5
Acts 9:4
eph 5:32

truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his apostolic church Matt 28:19

the church does not require scripture to know truth cos the church received the “deposit of faith” Jude 1:3 from Christ in person and the church of the apostles by apostolic authority and inspired human authority wrote the scriptures.

Scripture is the possession of the church!

Scripture was written by the church!

The church by apostolic tradition & authority declare what is & what is not scripture!

Given her by Christ! Jude 1:3
To safeguard against all error!
To faithfully teach all nations!
Matt 28:19
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not deny Christ and I am saved. Have been for 44 years. And baptised. And received the Holy Spirit. Do not judge by your own standards or false doctrines. I have blessed assurance that Jesus is mine and I am his. I do not need your approval or the approval of any other person. I have God's. And it is wonderful and glorious.

I am NOT say you personally are denying Christ, I’m saying it is possible for anyone to do so!
I’m not accusing you, I’m asking a question?
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
12,279
18,819
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I am NOT say you personally are denying Christ, I’m saying it is possible for anyone to do so!
I’m not accusing you, I’m asking a question?
I don't believe any true Christian would deny Jesus but if the did Jesus would forgive them.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How can there be a possibility of denying Christ if you are saved?

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

“If” means you have the ability to deny him, if you’re saved you can’t have this ability, but you do so you’re not saved!

This refers to apostasy or denying Christ so it is possible for a Christian to deny Christ so you’re not saved

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no moresacrifice for sins,
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
PSST!! Mary isn't a "QUEEN" - that's Catholic foolishness. The REAL Mary is Jesus' mom. an obedient Jewish Gal, who preformed a difficult ministry.

the mother of a king MUST BE A QUEEN!

only a queen can bear a king!

rev 12:1 queen with a crown!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You're kidding, right??? If you had ever bothered to READ YOUR BIBLE, you'd have found out in John 3.



SImple -
God DRAWS you to Jesus, and convicts you of your SIN, and of Judgement. YOU surrender, and REPENT OF YOUR SIN, and cry out in FAITH (gifted by God (Eph 2:8,9) for salvation through the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on Calvary (Isa 53). THEN the Holy Spirit will indwell you, and make you a Christian.

Next question??

what’s the water for?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2016
612
389
63
82
Dallas, TX
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
what’s the water for?
Refers to "Natural birth" which is the context of the entire passage - contrasting the NATURAL man with the Spiritually Born Again man.

Naturally a Catholic would have to desperately shoehorn in their "Baptismal regeneration fixation" in instead of the real meaning. John 3 has nothing to do with water baptism whatsoever.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2016
612
389
63
82
Dallas, TX
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the mother of a king MUST BE A QUEEN!

only a queen can bear a king!

rev 12:1 queen with a crown!

Chuckle!!! The WOMAN in Rev 12 is the church - the bride of Christ. Catholics desperately try to make this out to be their "Mary thing", but she isn't that at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe any true Christian would deny Jesus but if the did Jesus would forgive them.

they could repent of denying him that’s true, but since they can (possibility) deny him they are not saved!

Lk 9:62 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Refers to "Natural birth" which is the context of the entire passage - contrasting the NATURAL man with the Spiritually Born Again man.

Naturally a Catholic would have to desperately shoehorn in their "Baptismal regeneration fixation" in instead of the real meaning. John 3 has nothing to do with water baptism whatsoever.

so it really says born of water and born again by the spirit

And not
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

AND!!!!!!!

(see ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38)