James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[marks]

Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins)

To me, this interpretation disregards both context and syntax.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not talking universalism, and I'm not talking about Calvinism.

Romans 6:5 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If you've shared in the likeness of His death, you SHALL also share in the likeness of His resurrection.

By "conditional salvation", I'm using that term in what I've understood you to be meaning, that is, that after being "saved", conditions exist that if not met will undo your rebirth. I don't think that.

Regarding when we are reborn, we are saved when we believe, so there is the condition of believing. When we have been born again, that is forever.

Much love!

A believer can be born again and die spiritually. The Bible alludes to this fact.

“These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;” (Jude 1:12).

In other words, there were certain types of believers who feasted among the other brethren who fed themselves in the communion of the Lord’s supper without the fear of God, and they are said to be twice dead, plucked by the roots.

In other words, these kind of believers were once dead spiritually before coming to Christ, and they died spiritually a second time by later justifying sin in some way. They then became plucked by the roots and they started to feed themselves without any fear before God.

Jude 1:4 warns that they are the ones who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

 

[farouk]

Jesus says that various sins defile a man.

Matthew 15:18-20
“But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:..”

Now, let's look at the parable by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 (Which ties into 1 Corinthians 3:17).

Paul says before his parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying - 1 Corinthians 3:3 (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.

#1. The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.
#2. Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul, etc.) (Ephesians 2:20).
#3. The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).
#4. The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.
#5. Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins). We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us (i.e. condemn us).​

This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.

For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”
(Hebrews 12:14-15).

This ties in with 1 Corinthians 3:17. For if any man defiles the temple with sin, God will destroy them in the Lake of Fire. Tattoos is forbidden in Leviticus 19:28. While we are not under the Old Covenant, there are verses in the New Testament that suggest that this is sin that leads to spiritual death if a person persists in doing such a sin. Not only does sin defile, but cutting into your flesh with ink (whereby you crack the skin and blood comes out) defiles the temple of the Holy Spirit. The worshipers of Baal cut into their skin to show their dedication to their gods.

The New Testament says:

Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Tattoos is clearly pagan and of this world.

A girl taking to her friends about her faith in the Gospel from John 3.16 - with or without a John 3.16 tattoo on her wrist - is not going to be consigned to the pit because of the ink. I really don't see the Bible saying that sort of thing at all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Stepping out for dinner.

Maybe be back later (Lord willing).

 

[marks]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Can you in fact . . . know?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

It's not forever.

A believer can be born again and die spiritually.

I just don't see the new birth in John 3 as referring to something merely temporary, subjective and a supposed glorious failure. Rather, as Philippians 1.6 shows, it's a work which God begins and God sustains.

 

[marks]

A person can say that about sexual immorality. But we know that is condemned. Tattoos are also condemned in the Old Covenant and it was a show of the worship of their pagan gods. Not sure of how God would just suddenly approve of that just because we are under the New Covenant. Tattoos still are rooted in the worship of false gods. That's why God did not want the Israelites to be tattooed. Plus, you bleed when you get tattooed. Shedding of blood is a form of covenant making. Just like in marriage, and circumcision under the OT, etcetera. The New Covenant began with the shedding of Christ's blood. So folks are making covenants when they get tattooed. Just as a virgin is made a covenant with a man who took her virginity. Blood was shed.

Not all shedding of blood is making a covenant, though. I've never heard that idea before that it was. Interesting idea, but it seems to me lots of blood has been shed that had nothing to do with a covenant.

By the same token, do you eschew medical procedures like surgery?

Much love!

Just to say . . . I don't defend or support tattooing one's self. Not my thing.

 

[farouk]

A person can say that about sexual immorality. But we know that is condemned. Tattoos are also condemned in the Old Covenant and it was a show of the worship of their pagan gods. Not sure of how God would just suddenly approve of that just because we are under the New Covenant. Tattoos still are rooted in the worship of false gods. That's why God did not want the Israelites to be tattooed. Plus, you bleed when you get tattooed. Shedding of blood is a form of covenant making. Just like in marriage, and circumcision under the OT, etcetera. The New Covenant began with the shedding of Christ's blood. So folks are making covenants when they get tattooed. Just as a virgin is made a covenant with a man who took her virginity. Blood was shed.

I suppose logically you would also say that a Christian girl with double pierced ears whose lobes bled a bit would also supposedly lose her salvation.....

Frankly, some of the statements made go way beyond Scripture.

 

[marks]

I just don't see the new birth in John 3 as referring to something merely temporary, subjective and a supposed glorious failure. Rather, as Philippians 1.6 shows, it's a work which God begins and God sustains.

God already DID reject everyone based on their sin. All have fallen short of His glory, so all are already rejected. Now God is doing something different, saving us. Not for nothing!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

God already DID reject everyone based on their sin. All have fallen short of His glory, so all are already rejected. Now God is doing something different, saving us. Not for nothing!

Much love!

Ephesians 2 graphically shows the dire, fallen state of man; yet also - most gloriously - in the Ephesian believers' lives it was at 'But God....' who intervened in wondrous grace. :)

 

[marks]

I suppose logically you would also say that a Christian girl with double pierced ears whose lobes bled a bit would also supposedly lose her salvation.....

Frankly, some of the statements made go way beyond Scripture.

I'm diabetic, I prick my finger a few times a day for the specific purpose of bleeding, so I can test it.



Much love!

 

[marks]

Ephesians 2 graphically shows the dire, fallen state of man; yet also - most gloriously - in the Ephesian believers' lives it was at 'But God....' who intervened in wondrous grace. :)

One of the best places in Scripture!

Ephesians 2:4 KJV
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Much love!

 

[farouk]

One of the best places in Scripture!

Ephesians 2:4 KJV
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Much love!

I love that passage! :)


"All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the Tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me."

 

[farouk]

I'm diabetic, I prick my finger a few times a day for the specific purpose of bleeding, so I can test it.



Much love!

So am I diabetic.
So are lots of Christians.
Lots of girls since around the 1970s have gotten double pierced ears, including lots of Christian girls.
Salvation just isn't some kind of crude oil commodity in a tanker that changes ownership repeatedly, when Christian girls go to a mall jewelry kiosk, etc., etc.
I do love Philippians 1.6. Someone on these forums even has it as his or her header verse.

 

[marks]

“These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;” (Jude 1:12).

This does not say that the born again die again, but it does say what it means.

And who is this speaking of?

Jude 1:4 KJV
4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are not children of God.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

This does not say that the born again die again, but it does say what it means.

And who is this speaking of?

Jude 1:4 KJV
4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are not children of God.

Much love!

By definition, an apostate has light but not life.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Eternal Security or OSAS is probably one of the most grossest Anti-Scriptural beliefs in the church today. It's just not even remotely true.

IF These 12 DOZEN Plain And Clear Passages are NOT For
God's ETERNAL Salvation, Then WHY Did God Give THEM To us?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
+
God's ETERNAL Assurance!

Just wondering...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

IF These 12 DOZEN Plain And Clear Passages are NOT For
God's ETERNAL Salvation, Then WHY Did God Give THEM To us?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
+
God's ETERNAL Assurance!

Just wondering...

Eternal life is a person named Jesus Christ and eternal life is not a super power or a magical wish granted to a person by God.

1 Timothy 6:15-16

15 “…the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”​

We have to abide in the Son in order to have life (i.e. eternal life).

1 John 5:12

“He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”​

The assurance in how we can know that we truly know the Lord (or abide in Him) is if we find that we are keeping His commandments. For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

1 John 2:3-4

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
​

There are also many warnings in Scripture about how sin can destroy our souls, as well. What do you do with verses like Matthew 5:28-30 and Matthew 6:15? In other words, eternal assurance only applies if we abide in Christ. For you cannot be saved without Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This does not say that the born again die again, but it does say what it means.

And who is this speaking of?

Jude 1:4 KJV
4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are not children of God.

Much love!

Well, you believe in OSAS. This implies that you don't lose salvation when you sin. So this means a believer can to a degree sin and still be saved thereby making them ungodly and whereby they would be turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. You also appeared to suggest that Paul is referring to unbelievers and not believers in verses like Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, etcetera. This suggests that you are trying to escape the idea that believers are being referred to in this verse whereby they are being condemned because you prefer to see that believers can abide in these sins and yet inherit the kingdom of God. Which if this is the case: Means you are teaching believers can live ungodly and turn God's grace into lasciviousness. This just so happens to line up again with the warning we see in Jude 1:4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not all shedding of blood is making a covenant, though. I've never heard that idea before that it was. Interesting idea, but it seems to me lots of blood has been shed that had nothing to do with a covenant.

By the same token, do you eschew medical procedures like surgery?

Much love!

Just to say . . . I don't defend or support tattooing one's self. Not my thing.

No. We are not talking about blood shed to save life or for medical reasons. I am saying that tattoos originated in making blood covenants with their false pagan gods. Today, people tattoo their false idols of their gods on their arms. They are putting graffiti on the temple of God.

Pagan gods of course is just another word for the dark side of Satanism.

The Word of God in 1 Kings 18 gives a detailed and perverse example of blood-letting by Satanists (aka prophets of Baal) attempting to unleash supernatural power and ignite the fire for the sacrifice.

• 25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
• 26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
• 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
• 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

(1 Kings 18:25-28)

Notice how 1 Kings 18:28 describes this devil-worshipping, self-mutilation, blood-release act – ". . . after their manner. ." In other words, this "blood-letting" was common practice among the prophets of the devil. Blood-letting was a familiar ritual among the prophets of Baal.

It’s also evident from other scriptures that cutting of the flesh or blood-letting was common practice among the pagan, wicked nations.

In Leviticus 21:5 and Deuteronomy 14:1, the Lord condemns such demonic practices.

• 5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

(Leviticus 21:5)

Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves,

(Deuteronomy 14:1)

BLOOD-LETTING AND DEMON POSSESSION

Mark chapter 5 contains the familiar account of the devil-possessed man of Gadera. Notice in verse 5, among the demonic acts, and a tell-tale sign of possession – cutting himself with stones.

• 1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
• 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
• 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
• 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
• 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
• 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
• 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
• 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
• 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

(Mark 5:1-9)

It’s also interesting that this "cutting himself with stones" was associated with a man possessed not with one, but legions or many devils. Luke describes the same account as ". . . a certain man, which had devils long time. . ."

"And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs."

(Luke 8:27)

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