No Salvation Without Works

[Raccoon1010]

It is impossible to be saved and obtain eternal salvation at the end of this life without obeying God with the heart and doing His righteousness even as He is righteous.

The false doctrine is thinking to be saved 'first' by faith before and apart from obeying Him.

It is the carnal minded reasoning of them that think believing is inward only, and obeying is outward only. They have not the Spirit to understand that believing and obeying begin in the heart, and neither is ever without the other.

The first and great commandment is to love God with all the heart, which is to purify our hearts with faith, even as He is pure: faith is not in the heart, until the heart is obeying the faith to purify itself of the lust of the world.

1. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from obeying the first great commandment of God.

2. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from loving God in deed and in truth.

Faith only before and apart from deeds is not in deed and in truth.

3. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from being justified with God in deed and in truth.

4. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from doing the word.

5. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

To eat and drink is to do His word and obey Him. Faith only is the Bread of Life uneaten.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from having His life in us.

6. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Opening the door is obeying the voice of the Lord. Hearers only hear the knocking, but obeyers open the door.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from supping with Him in an obedient heart.

7. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The Lord is only the Lord of them that obey Him.

No man can call Him Lord, much less be saved by him, until He obeys the Lord.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from obeying the Lord as Lord.

8. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Coming to the Lord is obeying the Lord. No man is being saved before and separate from coming unto the Lord, but only when obeying Him as Lord.

Faith only comes to nothing.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from coming unto the Lord.

9. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Taking up the cross and following Him is only by obeying Him.

Faith only takes up nothing.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from coming unto the Lord.

10. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

No man knows the Lord, until he obeys the Lord.

Faith only knows nothing but what is heard only, and nothing of what is done.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from knowing the Lord.

11. Such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

Unholy, defiled, sinners of lust in the heart are separated from the Lord.

Faith only has repented of nothing and done nothing good.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from being reconciled to the Lord.

12. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

The good ground is only that which receives the word to obey it in the heart. No ground is good, until the word is obeyed and produces purity and righteousness of heart.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from producing good fruit of the Lord.

We are instructed to obey the commandments of God and become righteous. But we are not to be self righteous. All that is the part of the bible that OSAS believing people ignore. God would not teach us to be sinners and content in sinning. He compels us to become righteous and clean from the sins of the world. And we are cleansed thru the Blood of Christ when we receive the Holy Sacrament. God would never compel us to be content in sinning. That is the devils work.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, that's your opinion.
Thank you.
I stick to what I said before after re-reading this thread again.

Re:
No Salvation Without Works

I always thought that once a person comes to Christ, repented, accepted what He did on the Cross, that person becomes a new person and all things will be new, a transformation explained as to be born again and to be saved. I always thought that after this "works" would come as a result of being born again. That's how I experience it in my own life including the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
All of this received by God's Power. But I guess according to some of you, this does not work. What Christ did in my life, according to some of you was not enough, now I have to work for my salvation, i.o.w God failed to do what His plan was....it was not enough for Christ to suffer and be beating on that tree. Some of you are saying that being obedient 100% is the gate to salvation. I am saying being obedient (works) comes as a result of my salvation. Anyhow, this is what my position has been since I became a Christian in 1981, I I remember very well the date, place and time, it changed my life from dark to light. And I don't hope I am saved, because I know I am saved. Plain and simple.

I was coming back to you to apologize for being churlish.

There is a difference between trying to provoking someone to righteousness, and getting into a personal wrestling match.

Going to 'accusations' was unnecessary on my part.

And so, I am glad you returned to try and clarify. And I appreciate someone who takes another look and then stands their ground, which is integrity and principle.

Here is the short summary: there is no difference between faith and obedience in the heart, though there is difference between obedience in the heart first, followed by obedience of the body.

If the obedience is not in the heart, then neither is the faith, but the hearing remains only between the ears of flesh.

I always thought that after this "works" would come as a result of being born again.

So did I. The whole point here is to show the natural mistake of the carnal mind, which Christians also make and therefore wrongly apply to doctrine of Christ in salvation and justification of God.

With man there is temporal difference between thought and action, but not with God, because God sees the heart first, before deeds of the body.

Therefore, God seeks first His faith and obedience in the heart, to purify the heart of lust, which has no difference from one to the other: one cannot be without the other in the heart.

There is no faith and 'after this' works in the heart, but there is works in the heart and 'after this' works of the body:

Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Christians who carnally think that obedient works of faith are with the body and 'after' faith inwardly only, are not spiritually understanding the commanded obedience in and with the heart.

And so, the false doctrine that comes from that error of thinking is that salvation comes by faith only, before and apart from obedience to the faith, which they think only begins with the body.

The original examples of the thread prove this is false with Scripture, that it is impossible to be saved before and apart from loving and obeying God: we cannot be saved at any time while not loving God, and we cannot be loving God while not obeying God.

The simple spiritual explanation is that such obedient love begins in the heart with faith: to purify the heart of lust and cleanse the mind of vain imaginations and thought for sins of the flesh. Only in this way can any person be made righteous and do the righteousness of God inwardly and outwardly.

Jesus calls obedience in the heart, the first works of the first love, which is obeying the first commandment to love the God with all the heart.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works.

He acknowledges all their past good works and labor, and yet warns them about having left their first love of God by ceasing to obey His first commandment to love Him with all the heart: the outside of the platter has learned to be clean, but the inside is no more purified of vain thought and imagination.

They were becoming Pharisees in works of the body, after having been saints calling upon the Lord from a pure heart.

Our obedience is to purify our hearts of lust, and our diligence is to keep our hearts pure unto the end, and not to begin to trust in the flesh only:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Them that never acknowledge the first works of obeying the faith in a pure heart, never purify their hearts, while seeking to love God and their neighbors: trying to obey the second great commandment without first obeying the greatest of all with all the pure heart.

A heart of lust cannot be obeying the first commandment, because no man can love God with all the unclean heart, and no man can obey and please God from an unclean heart.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

We are only purified in soul and heart by obedience to the faith, because we are the ones given power to do so and become sons of God in this world, even as the Son of God is in heaven.

Those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between obedience in the heart and that of the body, go on to take the final step of rebellion, by rejecting any part nor responsibility in their salvation and justification to become sons of God with power to do the good work of purifying ourselves by His faith.

 

[Behold]

We are instructed to obey the commandments of God and become righteous..

If YOU, devin, can become "righteous", by keeping commandments, as you TEACH, then JESUS didnt have to die on the Cross.

He could have saved Himself being BUTCHERED for your SIN.
He could have just sat in Glory and watched a deceiver like you pretend to save yourself by your commandment keeping false gospel of works. Galatians 1:8

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Raccoon1010]

If YOU, devin, can become "righteous", by keeping commandments, as you TEACH, then JESUS didnt have to die on the Cross.

He could have saved Himself being BUTCHERED for your SIN.
He could have just sat in Glory and watched a deceiver like you pretend to save yourself by your commandment keeping false gospel of works. Galatians 1:8

You're not addressing what I said. And you twisted everything so far beyond what I said, that I shouldn't even address it. Obeying the commandments is an order we are given from Jesus, especially for those that teach and lead in the churches. It's all throughout the bible.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Psalms 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

 

[Behold]

Obeying the commandments is an order we are given from Jesus,

Jesus also told you to give to the poor, and to love your wife as Christ loved the church.

He told listeners to do a lot of things.

What he also told you is that commandment keeping can't get you into heaven.
See, Jesus never said..>"if you keep the commandments, you will go to heaven"

But you know who does teach commandment keeping in place of the Cross?
= The Devil's ministers.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Jesus also told you to give to the poor, and to love your wife as Christ loved the church.

He told listeners to do a lot of things.

What he also told you is that commandment keeping can't get you into heaven.
See, Jesus never said..>"if you keep the commandments, you will go to heaven"

But you know who does teach commandment keeping in place of the Cross?
= The Devil's ministers.

You have a doctrine I don't think I've ever seen. And I see you're from Israel. So I'm curious what church you attend?

Anyways what you're saying once again ignores key scripture. We are to provide works meet for repentance. Without these works we will not be saved. And in the following scripture we are warned against not providing these works. Which is something Jesus also warned about in Matthew 25:31-46:

Matthew 3:8-10

King James Version

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Triumph1300]

I was coming back to you to apologize for being churlish.

There is a difference between trying to provoking someone to righteousness, and getting into a personal wrestling match.

Going to 'accusations' was unnecessary on my part.

And so, I am glad you returned to try and clarify. And I appreciate someone who takes another look and then stands their ground, which is integrity and principle.

Here is the short summary: there is no difference between faith and obedience in the heart, though there is difference between obedience in the heart first, followed by obedience of the body.

If the obedience is not in the heart, then neither is the faith, but the hearing remains only between the ears of flesh.

:) Agreed!

 

[Behold]

You have a doctrine I don't think I've ever seen. And I see you're from Israel. So I'm curious what church you attend?

I attend a Messianic Congregation.

I'll show you photos of my Shofar , but let me tell you this first...

I only Teach/Preach : Pauline Doctrine.

= Pauline Theology.
So, if you have never heard of this, you are in big trouble when you die.
Really.
I hope you will listen to me, as i have the keys to eternal life.... John 14:6

You'll note that this verse does not contain any water.
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[Raccoon1010]

I attend a Messianic Congregation.

I'll show you photos of my Shofar , but let me tell you this first...

I only Teach/Preach : Pauline Doctrine.

= Pauline Theology.
So, if you have never heard of this, you are in big trouble when you die.
Really.
I hope you will listen to me, as i have the keys to eternal life.... John 14:6

You'll note that this verse does not contain any water.
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View attachment 20815

I'll read up on the Messianic doctrine to become familiar with what you believe.

As far as the keys of death and hell. Those are the keys to life as God can raise people from death and deliver them out of hell. Both of those are prisons sort of with doors and locks in a way, which require keys. And we know who has those keys, it is Jesus the Christ.

Revelation 1:18-20

King James Version

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Triumph1300]

I attend a Messianic Congregation.

Interesting.
I have a subscription, the magazine "Israel My Glory".
Worthwhile magazine for regular updates.

 

[Behold]

As far as the keys of death and hell. Those are the keys to life as God can raise people from death and deliver them out of hell.

Christ died on Earth on the Cross.
So, salvation is offered to you on earth with Jesus nailed to it.
There is no Cross in Eternity, as it was raised on earth.
You can have this Holy sacrifice for all your sin, on earth, exactly the same as Jesus died on the Cross on Earth to offer His death for your sin.

Someone is going to pay for all your sin.
He already did, but you will if you dont let him become your Savior...and be born again... on earth.

Once you pass the door of death, you are going to face God as Judge or Father.
You have God's word on that, and He is not lying.

Choose Christ now, .... believe on Jesus and be born again now, and God will give you the new Birth......."born again"

or.....Ignore this. Play church.. listen to deceivers when you feel in your heart they are leading you to hell, and you'll end up there with them.

Hell is not a place where you sit for a while till you get a 2nd chance.
Its the beginning of your eternal destination, and this eternal damnation just gets worse. John 3:36

Here is the thing about Heaven and Hell.
Both are eternal destinations.
Jesus on The Cross is the only way to Heaven, John 14:6. and not going there to place your faith in Christ, is how you go to hell after you die.
You get to make that choice, while you are breathing, devin.

This is for you. :

2 Corinthians 6:2

 

[Raccoon1010]

Christ died on Earth on the Cross.
So, salvation is offered to you on earth with Jesus nailed to it.
There is no Cross in Eternity, as it was raised on earth.
You can have this Holy sacrifice for all your sin, on earth, exactly the same as Jesus died on the Cross on Earth to offer His death for your sin.

Someone is going to pay for all your sin.
He already did, but you will if you dont let him become your Savior...and be born again... on earth.

Once you pass the door of death, you are going to face God as Judge or Father.
You have God's word on that, and He is not lying.

Choose Christ now, .... believe on Jesus and be born again now, and God will give you the new Birth......."born again"

or.....Ignore this. Play church.. listen to deceivers when you feel in your heart they are leading you to hell, and you'll end up there with them.

Hell is not a place where you sit for a while till you get a 2nd chance.
Its the beginning of your eternal destination, and this eternal damnation just gets worse. John 3:36

Here is the thing about Heaven and Hell.
Both are eternal destinations.
Jesus on The Cross is the only way to Heaven, John 14:6. and not going there to place your faith in Christ, is how you go to hell after you die.
You get to make that choice, while you are breathing, devin.

This is for you. :

2 Corinthians 6:2

I've been born again for some time. Paul was only one of Apostles. The other disciples Jesus chose while with them. Paul was cautioned by an angel of the Lord. They are all disciples of Christ. If you're not listening to anyone other than Paul I would say that is why you won't get anyone truly agreeing with you're context. I looked up Messianic and it said that Messianic Judaism relates to the evangelical movement along with Judaism. I am not evangelical and will never be, as I see the orthodox views as correct.

I'm going to provide an alternate view than yours so that readers don't get confused by Pauline only doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

What he also told you is that commandment keeping can't get you into heaven.

This is strong delusion indeed.

So, not keeping his commandments will get us to heaven? Not keeping His commandments is the only way to heaven?

Never read that in Scripture. Nor did I ever read in Scripture how keeping His commandments is sinful.

I do read plenty of Scripture how not keeping His commandments can't get us to heaven and will get us to hell:

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Condemning keeping the commandments of God is not the ministry of Jesus Christ, but that of another gospel of a false christ.

 

[Behold]

Paul was cautioned by an angel of the Lord.

There is no verse in any greek text or in any bible created by the same that says that ""Paul was cautioned by an angel""
So, you made this up, or you are deceived by whatever cult told you that, or whatever cult wrote that book that teaches that lie.....which has led you away from Truth.

Thank you for giving me an idea for a Thread.
ITs based on a lie you told here, in a recent post.
This is one of the things i appreciate that religious heretics do for me....they endlessly give me a seed that i turn in to a Thread.


Just remember what i told you.. previously.
You'll meet that day.
Believe it, and never say you were not shown the Cross.

 

[robert derrick]

See, Jesus never said..>"if you keep the commandments, you will go to heaven"

And so, if you keep His commandments, you will not go to heaven.

He did say if we love Him, we will keep His commandments, and without keeping His commandments we do not love Him.

If we obey the great commandment and love Him with a pure heart, we will go to heaven.

If we disobey the great commandment and try to love Him with an unclean heart, we will not go to heaven.

In their convoluted way, OSAS condemns itself: With unpurified hearts of lust, they try to put on a show of loving God and keeping His commandments, which indeed will not get anyone to heaven.

The truth is, if we think we are loving God with an unclean heart, then we are fooling ourselves into thinking we are saved and going to heaven.

 

[robert derrick]

But you know who does teach commandment keeping in place of the Cross?
= The Devil's ministers.

Then OSAS is the devil's ministry: they think to keep His commandments with fair show of the flesh, in place of purifying the heart of lust of the world.

The truth is that no man can keep His commandments in deed and in truth without the cross.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We can only keep His commandments with a pure heart of faith, and so we cannot keep His commandments without the seed and faith of Jesus in our heart: with the cross.

OSAS are them thinking to keep His commandments with a heart of lust, which is without the cross and in place of the cross.

But blankly condemning keeping the commandments of God is certainly not Christ's ministers.

And lying about them that preach keeping His commandments from the heart is certainly not of Christ, but of the devil.

 

[Raccoon1010]

There is no verse in any greek text or in any bible created by the same that says that ""Paul was cautioned by an angel""
So, you made this up, or you are deceived by whatever cult told you that, or whatever cult wrote that book that teaches that lie.....which has led you away from Truth.

Thank you for giving me an idea for a Thread.
ITs based on a lie you told here, in a recent post.
This is one of the things i appreciate that religious heretics do for me....they endlessly give me a seed that i turn in to a Thread.


Just remember what i told you.. previously.
You'll meet that day.
Believe it, and never say you were not shown the Cross.

Yes my memory was a little off, it wasn't an angel, it was the Lord. This is what the bible teaches us about Paul's conversion:
Acts 9:1-6

King James Version

9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

 

[Raccoon1010]

And Paul describing himself as the least of all the saints. A humble man, giving credit to the other Apostles as greater saints.

Ephesians 3:8

King James Version

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;